Pakistan - The only Nuclear Armed State without a Sea-Based deterrent

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

WEe don't need nuc subs---. What we can really use is double hull AIP subs and add small yield---TNW's to the torpedoes---.

With 8---12 conventional subs armed with small yield TNW's torpedoes can devastate any opponents naval fleet.

Just imagine the difference----with one conventional torpedo---you may take out 1 3-4000 ton frigate----but with one nuc tipped torpedo---detonated 200 yards below the keel of the largest naval battle group ship---you will blow upsiode down muliple ships and all the subs underwater giving protection to those ships.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

WEe don't need nuc subs---. What we can really use is double hull AIP subs and add small yield---TNW's to the torpedoes---.

With 8---12 conventional subs armed with small yield TNW's torpedoes can devastate any opponents naval fleet.

Just imagine the difference----with one conventional torpedo---you may take out 1 3-4000 ton frigate----but with one nuc tipped torpedo---detonated 200 yards below the keel of the largest naval battle group ship---you will blow upsiode down muliple ships and all the subs underwater giving protection to those ships.

That's a very nice scenario but we also need a few SLBM capable subs for the 2nd strike capability i.e. to attack enemy in case of enemy nukes the country.

 

[Penguin]

Hi,

WEe don't need nuc subs---. What we can really use is double hull AIP subs and add small yield---TNW's to the torpedoes---.

With 8---12 conventional subs armed with small yield TNW's torpedoes can devastate any opponents naval fleet.

Just imagine the difference----with one conventional torpedo---you may take out 1 3-4000 ton frigate----but with one nuc tipped torpedo---detonated 200 yards below the keel of the largest naval battle group ship---you will blow upsiode down muliple ships and all the subs underwater giving protection to those ships.

True, but torpedo attack requires a submarine to come in quite close to the group that is the target.

 

[MastanKhan]

True, but torpedo attack requires a submarine to come in quite close to the group that is the target.

Hi,

I would recommend you read the books that I referred to---. The sub would have to be very far to launch and survive the concussion.


And no---the sub does not have to come close----it all depends on the range of the torp---the speed of the torp in relation to the flank sped of the targeted sub.

That's a very nice scenario but we also need a few SLBM capable subs for the 2nd strike capability i.e. to attack enemy in case of enemy nukes the country.

Hi,

You have to read those books first to truly understand the scenario---the first book will blow your pants off---.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

I would recommend you read the books that I referred to---. The sub would have to be very far to launch and survive the concussion.


And no---the sub does not have to come close----it all depends on the range of the torp---the speed of the torp in relation to the flank sped of the targeted sub.




Hi,

You have to read those books first to truly understand the scenario---the first book will blow your pants off---.

Sir can you please give titles of those books?

 

[Penguin]

Hi,

I would recommend you read the books that I referred to---. The sub would have to be very far to launch and survive the concussion.

And no---the sub does not have to come close----it all depends on the range of the torp---the speed of the torp in relation to the flank sped of the targeted sub.

Indeed, you would need a very long range torpedo, is what I'm saying. There are only few of those in existance. Like the 40km wakehoming Russian UGST or 50km German DM2 A-4 or their 51.4km SST-3 Seal. Most 533mm torpedoes, however, have a range of less than 20km (or even less than 10km)

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir can you please give titles of those books?

https://www.amazon.com/Tidal-Rip-Joe-Buff/dp/0060009667

Here is the amazon link---get the first one---read it---and then come tell us what you think.

Indeed, you would need a very long range torpedo, is what I'm saying. There are only few of those in existance. Like the 40km wakehoming Russian UGST or 50km German DM2 A-4 or their 51.4km SST-3 Seal. Most 533mm torpedoes, however, have a range of less than 20km (or even less than 10km)

Hi,

Well in that case---they will have to launch a volley and high tail out of Dodge.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Saber ka Phal meetha hota hai

 

[amardeep mishra]

Hi,

I would recommend you read the books that I referred to---. The sub would have to be very far to launch and survive the concussion.


And no---the sub does not have to come close----it all depends on the range of the torp---the speed of the torp in relation to the flank sped of the targeted sub.

My dear @MastanKhan
Firstly we must understand the typical engagement scenarios of a conventional heavy weight torpedo. I dont think any existing conventionally propelled torpedo has a range in excess of 50kms(the number of such heavy weight torpedos is very less as there are very few countries making them!--India is one among them btw!).By conventionally powered I mean battery/thermally powered ones and not using cavitating phenomenon like squal. So,to take a shot at the enemy(in this case any of the three indian CBGs that are coming up),PN subs would have to venture at least 50kms or less close to the capital ship of the CBG. This would be very very difficult task if not downright impossible given the extensive array of ASW assets at the disposal of IN in the form of various corvettes and P8i that would invariably provide cover to CBG.Kindly note that the average size of modern ASW corvettes in IN is roughly equal to that of a frigate in PN.This shows the kind of sensor array they pack.
On a related note,When was the last time pakistan actually designed a heavy weight torpedo? Now I am sure you'd quickly point out that a change of warhead in existing heavy weight torpedo of PN would serve the purpose.But then again,is PN allowed to fiddle with the torpedos provided by french in their agosta-90? And also note that it is NOT EASY to integrate a foreign torpedo to your sub because of incompatibility issues between various communication protocols and data buses.

And lastly,any nuclear attack on indian forces would invite "dis-proportionate" response from indian strategic forces.The stated indian doctrine as articulated by Shyam Saram in 2013 calls out for a massive Disproportionate response to any nuclear attack on indian forces or on indian soil.

 

[MastanKhan]

My dear @MastanKhan
Firstly we must understand the typical engagement scenarios of a conventional heavy weight torpedo. I dont think any existing conventionally propelled torpedo has a range in excess of 50kms(the number of such heavy weight torpedos is very less as there are very few countries making them!--India is one among them btw!).By conventionally powered I mean battery/thermally powered ones and not using cavitating phenomenon like squal. So,to take a shot at the enemy(in this case any of the three indian CBGs that are coming up),PN subs would have to venture at least 50kms or less close to the capital ship of the CBG. This would be very very difficult task if not downright impossible given the extensive array of ASW assets at the disposal of IN in the form of various corvettes and P8i that would invariably provide cover to CBG.Kindly note that the average size of modern ASW corvettes in IN is roughly equal to that of a frigate in PN.This shows the kind of sensor array they pack.
On a related note,When was the last time pakistan actually designed a heavy weight torpedo? Now I am sure you'd quickly point out that a change of warhead in existing heavy weight torpedo of PN would serve the purpose.But then again,is PN allowed to fiddle with the torpedos provided by french in their agosta-90? And also note that it is NOT EASY to integrate a foreign torpedo to your sub because of incompatibility issues between various communication protocols and data buses.

And lastly,any nuclear attack on indian forces would invite "dis-proportionate" response from indian strategic forces.The stated indian doctrine as articulated by Shyam Saram in 2013 calls out for a massive Disproportionate response to any nuclear attack on indian forces or on indian soil.

Hi,

Multiple shots would be taken from around 5 km---the destruction would be so fast and complete of the armada---that they will not have the time to relay what hit them---.

For good measure to jam the electronic on surface---an airburst would do the job well.

In your eternal utter indian stupidity---you have not yet realized that we don't give s shi-t about you dis-proportionate response.

We have 'heavens' waiting for us---for you---it is eternal hell---. Does that satisfy you now---.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Hi,

Multiple shots would be taken from around 5 km---the destruction would be so fast and complete of the armada---that they will not have the time to relay what hit them---.

For good measure to jam the electronic on surface---an airburst would do the job well.

In your eternal utter indian stupidity---you have not yet realized that we don't give s shi-t about you dis-proportionate response.

We have 'heavens' waiting for us---for you---it is eternal hell---. Does that satisfy you now---.

@MastanKhan
So you're talking of a kamikaze type attack? You should have specified that at the very beginning. And lastly your frustration is QUITE VISIBLE I must say! I dont believe in the concept of religion so for me heaven and hell are pretty much meaningless,but that would be digressing from the main topic.
Cant you focus on topic instead of un-necessary rants and calling out names?I was under the impression that you are mature.

 

[ssethii]

@MastanKhan
So you're talking of a kamikaze type attack? You should have specified that at the very beginning. And lastly your frustration is QUITE VISIBLE I must say! I dont believe in the concept of religion so for me heaven and hell are pretty much meaningless,but that would be digressing from the main topic.
Cant you focus on topic instead of un-necessary rants and calling out names?I was under the impression that you are mature.

Whole scenario of Indo-Pak war is kamikaze. There is nothing special about destruction of your CBG except humility for Indians. You don't have to wait for it to go for a disproportionate response that you vehemently brag about. Secondly you are taking into account your future CBG's but you don't even know the specs of those 8 subs Pakistan is acquiring in the same time period so your analysis that no Pakistani sub will come close to Indian CBG is critically flawed. I don't see any frustration here but someone's ego is definitely hurt.

 

[PakSword]

Disproportionate response

To do this, India must have disproportionate number of nuclear weapons.. Which unfortunately India doesn't have. While Pakistan may not survive, India will have to start again from 1857.. both with respect to population and infrastructure.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan
So you're talking of a kamikaze type attack? You should have specified that at the very beginning. And lastly your frustration is QUITE VISIBLE I must say! I dont believe in the concept of religion so for me heaven and hell are pretty much meaningless,but that would be digressing from the main topic.
Cant you focus on topic instead of un-necessary rants and calling out names?I was under the impression that you are mature.

Hi,

You need to learn first about the great american saying " in war---the enemy gets to vote as well "small as they may be..

 

[PakSword]

I dont believe in the concept of religion so for me heaven and hell are pretty much meaningless

You can't even realize how much advantage this concept gives us. If we fight Jews or Christians, or Christians fight Jews, this advantage at both ends will nullify each other.

When you have a nation in front of you that thinks that they will win if they live, and they will win if they die, you can't win.. These kind of nations do not leave the opponent in a condition to survive, even if they are wiped off. That's why, fighting Taliban or ISIS is so difficult as unfortunately they also have such beliefs that they use in wars.

For us, the most painful death will give us more higher level in after life.