Pakistan: The ‘birth’ of a problem

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The entire human race is said to descend from Africans. But the issue is more one of civilizational connectivity and continuity.

The Greeks no longer adhere to the polytheistic faith of their ancestors - that ancient history is still theirs.

The civilization ended, the people perhaps did not, and their descendants would largely be the inhabitants of modern day Pakistan, and like the Greeks that ancient civilization and heritage is ours, despite we as a people having moved on to follow another faith.

But yes, perhaps this belongs to another thread - so will leave it at that.

Agreed.

 

[Halaku Khan]

The Greeks no longer adhere to the polytheistic faith of their ancestors - that ancient history is still theirs.

The civilization ended, the people perhaps did not, and their descendants would largely be the inhabitants of modern day Pakistan, and like the Greeks that ancient civilization and heritage is ours, despite we as a people having moved on to follow another faith.

The Greek and Roman civilizations still live in today's language, laws, political systems, mathematics, philosophy, and in many other ways.

Whereas the Pakistani connection to the IVC is no greater than their connection to African ancestors.

Agreed.

OK. No more from me along those lines.

 

[vsdoc]

Since no nation or state existed, why should the people of a region not organize themselves into two, three or more nations?

What is a "nation"? Versus that, what is a common land, history, and culture of an entire "people"? Please remember that what makes a "nation" is its "people" ..... and not ideologies, laws, constitutions, religions, or man-made boundaries. You ask "why not", while the vast majority of the time asked "why" ..... so are you today 62 years hence in any way better informed or more qualified or having greater moral right than those who fought and died for making the nation at that time?

The answer to your question above is staring at you today ..... 3 nations ..... Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh. I will try not to play the superiority card here and ask you to compare the three and honestly judge which came out better.

I will ask you instead to tell me whether you and your country, having got what you wanted then, for the purported reasons you wanted it then, can honestly introspect and judge yourselves on a scale of what your forefathers envisaged for "Pakistan" then versus the reality of pakistan today.

And NO, unlike some pakistanis here who feel we Indians owe them explanations on our Secularism and Democracy, we Indians are not asking nor expecting you to share that private process with us.

that sense of 'Indianhood' was not strong enough to counter the competing nationalism of a separate Muslim nation. And there was no 'narrow agenda of independence' amongst the smaller States because the region was caught up primarily in the two main competing ideologies - one of a United Indian nation-state out of all the disparate ethnicities, cultures and States in the region, and the other of two nation-states, with both coming achieving consensus around the demand for independence from the British.

Your earlier post said that only a small intellectual minority wanted a united India, while the vast majority simply had religious animosity covering their eyes. Yet here you say the entire "region" (I choose to call it Nation) was caught up in the struggle ..... one way or the other.

You say the sense of Indianhood paled in front of a separate Muslim nation ..... yet the statistics of those days prove the fallacy of your contention ..... ALL or nearly all Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, Jains, and Parsis chose United India as did half the Muslim population of the time ..... while only half the Muslim population chose a separate Muslim nation over United India.

So in terms of popular sentiment which sentiment was stronger AM? United India or Separate Pakistan? You and me both need to face the reality that pakistan was thrust on to us ...... you and me both, in different guises ...... by whom and why, is material for an entirely different thread.

In this thread, it is an Indian author who is dragging in Pakistan, and within the context of this thread it would behoove Indians to criticize this author and others like him who refuse to introspect and cast blame where it should be, upon Indians and India, for communal and social ills, and instead scapegoat Pakistan and the ideology of Pakistan for those ills.

That is your opinion ..... which does not necessarily have to be shared by us who see things differently. I for one feel there is serious merit in what the author says and have believed so for some time now.

Cheers, Doc

 

[humblehobbes]

There is either a muslim nationalism or sense of nationhood related to the land where the people live. You cannot have both. This is not off topic, as you tend to say that it was muslim nationalism that resulted in Pakistan, But at the sametime you claim ownership to the culture of the land, which no longer is part of the land, but shifted to a few hundred kilometres to the east and spread over an area equal to the seventh largest country in the world. If Srilanka was Arabia and the conquests came from the south, then you would probably have a Pakistan south of Maharashtra and I guess you would would lay claim to the history of the Dravidan civilisation, although the whole place was carved out of a sense of religious consideration rather than any love of the land or its associated culture.

 

[vsdoc]

^^^ Which is also why I asked AM (confused as I was as something was not adding up inspite of his articulate views) whether Pakistan was born out of Minority Insecurity or Religion ..... and if it was Minority Insecurity based on Religion, then why once the Minority became a Majority, did Religion still continue to be the overpowering factor in Pakistan's existence. The answer is pretty obvious to me and others here, but I'd like to hear it from a clear-thinking Pakistani instead, as it would make clear once and for all to both sides here what the actual reason for Partition was.

Cheers, Doc

 

[TaimiKhan]

^^^ Which is also why I asked AM (confused as I was as something was not adding up inspite of his articulate views) whether Pakistan was born out of Minority Insecurity or Religion ..... and if it was Minority Insecurity based on Religion, then why once the Minority became a Majority, did Religion still continue to be the overpowering factor in Pakistan's existence. The answer is pretty obvious to me and others here, but I'd like to hear it from a clear-thinking Pakistani instead, as it would make clear once and for all to both sides here what the actual reason for Partition was.

Cheers, Doc

Sir, kindly read post# 178, it may give you an idea why & what was the main reason for partition. Muslims were not in favor of Partition of India till 1937, they wanted a united India free from the British, Muslim League & Jinnah had been lobbying for British withdrawal & equal rights for the Muslims after they left & even during the British raj. It was 1937, which changed the Muslim thinking & they started campaigning for an Independent State.

 

[Developereo]

Well in any country....giving any even a communal color is a matter of time.....Remember recently in Pakistan some Christians got killed because some people thought they disrespected Kuran(I mention Kuran here with all due respect)....

Once again. The pogrom in Gujarat was organized and led by local and state officials using census data to specifically lead mobs of Hindu fanatics to Muslim homes.

As bad as Gojra was, it doesn't even compare to Gujarat.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Once again. The pogrom in Gujarat was organized and led by local and state officials using census data to specifically lead mobs of Hindu fanatics to Muslim homes.

As bad as Gojra was, it doesn't even compare to Gujarat.

Agreed, Gojra was done by some local extremists who most probably did it for some other purpose. In Gujrat, the state machinery including Politicians all were involved in the massacre of Muslims.

 

[Nemesis]

We, Indian Muslims, never sought help from Pakistan or any other country for that matter to take care of our problems. We, Indian Muslims, are ourselves strong and capable enough to tackle our own problems whenever need be. I don’t buy your theory that we, Indian Muslims, are second-class citizens in our own country. Let me state that we, Indian Muslims, are thankful to the Almighty Allah and our country’s system of governance that we exercise our democratic rights on our own free will without any sort of coercion or favour whatsoever.

 

[Developereo]

Please refer to my section where I spoke about the Muslim community and its participation in the Indian success story.

Anecdotal evidence is useless in establishing broad trends.
Social, Economic and Educational Status of the Muslim Community of India tells how Indian Muslims continue to be marginalized.

Nothing to doubt here ..... the literacy rates for Pakistan and Indian Muslims are available on the Net ..... may I suggest Google?

Once again, the Sachar report contradicts your claims.
"At the post-graduate level, only one out of twenty students is a
Muslim."
That comes to 5%, compared to the 13.4% that Muslims comprise of the general population. In other words, Muslims are three times less likely to get higher education than non-Muslims in India.

It is irrelevant what Muslims in Pakistan are doing. The issue is how are Muslims in India doing compared to the national averages. Are they full-fledged citizens, or do they face discrimination?

By your logic, all Hindus should move to the US since educational and economic opportunites are better in the US.

Sure they would. But sad as that statistic is, the rest of the 150 odd million Indian Muslims would however look at the LAKHS of Pakistani Muslims shot/stabbed/beheaded/mutilated/blown up/etc. by other Pakistani Muslims, and say a silent prayer for having stayed back in largely tolerant and pluralistic India.

Lakhs of Pakistani Muslims? Where do you dream up this stuff?
The Sikhs in 1984 and Muslims in 2002 had a taste of this legendary "tolerant and pluralistic India". The Muslims and Dalits continue to appreciate this "tolerance" every time they apply for a job in the private sector and get rejected despite qualifications.

Exactly. There are prejudices on both sides, but at least with the state machinery providing for equality, the chances of these prejudices being worked out peacefully by fellow Indians is that much higher, as is being seen by the efforts to improve the lot of Indian Muslims, their coming out and speaking out publicly in defense of their motherland against separatist fundamental Islamic forces within and without, and in general the markedly reduced intensity and frequency of Hindu-Muslim riots today.

Too bad the Hindu fundamentalist RSS and BJP continue to grow in influence and popularity throughout India. That alone speaks volumes about the trends in India far more eloquently than any spin.

The reduced frequency of open riots simply means that the Muslims have largely become resigned to their lot, or the Gujarat pogroms sent a clear message of one-sided, state-sponsored consequences to follow.

Nobody is shifting blame. My country, my government, my people. Its like asking me to pick and choose amongst my brothers to say who is innocent and who is to blame. Sorry ...... not happening.

You personally may view the Muslims as brothers, but an increasing number of Indians don't. The Indian media continues to hold them hostage to Kashmir and every terrorist act within India. Indian Muslims are expected to continually prove their loyalty.

The media follows revenue, so the media focus provides a barometer of broad social trends.

 

[humblehobbes]

You personally may view the Muslims as brothers, but an increasing number of Indians don't. The Indian media continues to hold them hostage to Kashmir and every terrorist act within India. Indian Muslims are expected to continually prove their loyalty.

The media follows revenue, so the media focus provides a barometer of broad social trends.

This is a statement which needs pondering. Why is the news taken up and argued with so much of emotional content. There are other oppressed groups, oppressed either by force r ignorance. There are countless dalits. Orissa state is suffering for God knows how long. Brahmins down south in my state have to prove that they are the sharpest in all ways to get a decent Engineering / Medical college. These issues are argued in a condescending way, as in to show India in poor light without any genuine concern for the suffering people.

Whereas, the plight of muslims are taken up as if it were a thorn in your own heart, even though Indian muslims have not petitioned the state of Pakistan or its people. Even if it was,( I know some smarty would come up with an obscure link proving me wrong ) its not the voice of the majority.

This voice of yours, which comes from a state which has waged 3 wars. Which has been recognized as an Enemy. this is what irks the general indian populace perhaps. this is what makes them do what is happening perhaps. This is my thought process. But I dunno.. I could be wrong.

 

[Khajur]

Once again, the Sachar report contradicts your claims.
"At the post-graduate level, only one out of twenty students is a
Muslim."
That comes to 5%, compared to the 13.4% that Muslims comprise of the general population. In other words, Muslims are three times less likely to get higher education than non-Muslims in India.

As some one once pointed put statistica are like bikinis... What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital .

Most of the indian muslims live in economically backward states like West Bengal.Assam,UP and Bihar where the not just higher education but all human development index is less than national avg of india.

 

[TaimiKhan]

This is a statement which needs pondering. Why is the news taken up and argued with so much of emotional content. There are other oppressed groups, oppressed either by force r ignorance. There are countless dalits. Orissa state is suffering for God knows how long. Brahmins down south in my state have to prove that they are the sharpest in all ways to get a decent Engineering / Medical college. These issues are argued in a condescending way, as in to show India in poor light without any genuine concern for the suffering people.

Whereas, the plight of muslims are taken up as if it were a thorn in your own heart, even though Indian muslims have not petitioned the state of Pakistan or its people. Even if it was,( I know some smarty would come up with an obscure link proving me wrong ) its not the voice of the majority.

This voice of yours, which comes from a state which has waged 3 wars. Which has been recognized as an Enemy. this is what irks the general indian populace perhaps. this is what makes them do what is happening perhaps. This is my thought process. But I dunno.. I could be wrong.

We, Indian Muslims, never sought help from Pakistan or any other country for that matter to take care of our problems. We, Indian Muslims, are ourselves strong and capable enough to tackle our own problems whenever need be. I don’t buy your theory that we, Indian Muslims, are second-class citizens in our own country. Let me state that we, Indian Muslims, are thankful to the Almighty Allah and our country’s system of governance that we exercise our democratic rights on our own free will without any sort of coercion or favour whatsoever.

Plz read the 1st post on the 1st page which started the thread. The discussion is not about Pakistan taking the "theka" of Indian Muslims, nor we would like to, except for the IOK Muslims. The rest of the Muslims in India can enjoy whatever they want & are getting, it shouldn't matter to Pakistan. And yeah the statements issued by both the governments when something happens to the minorities in each country is just the politics, a tit for tat game. Indian foreign ministry issues a statement, ours do in response, but they are not the statements of the people. If Indian Muslims are happy, may Allah give them more & more.

But the thread starter was an article posted on an Indian website, blaming the woes of Muslims in India on partition & terrorism & some very absurd theories. So remarks should be linked to that, it wasn't posted by a Pakistani saying we need to take the "theka" of our Indian Muslim brothers.

 

[Developereo]

This is a statement which needs pondering. Why is the news taken up and argued with so much of emotional content. There are other oppressed groups, oppressed either by force r ignorance. There are countless dalits. Orissa state is suffering for God knows how long. Brahmins down south in my state have to prove that they are the sharpest in all ways to get a decent Engineering / Medical college. These issues are argued in a condescending way, as in to show India in poor light without any genuine concern for the suffering people.

Whereas, the plight of muslims are taken up as if it were a thorn in your own heart, even though Indian muslims have not petitioned the state of Pakistan or its people. Even if it was,( I know some smarty would come up with an obscure link proving me wrong ) its not the voice of the majority.

This voice of yours, which comes from a state which has waged 3 wars. Which has been recognized as an Enemy. this is what irks the general indian populace perhaps. this is what makes them do what is happening perhaps. This is my thought process. But I dunno.. I could be wrong.

Sorry if I sounded emotional.

This thread centers around the premise that creation of Pakistan was a bad idea and the plight of Indian Muslims is, therefore, Pakistan's fault.

I fully appreciate that when Pakistan sticks up for Indian Muslims, it may end up causing them more harm than good. Anti-Muslim opportunists within India would use that as proof of an "alliance" between Indian Muslims and Pakistan.

It is also true that it serves to distract attention away from our own internal problems -- which both our countries have in plenty. I don't think Pakistan needs to justify it's raison d'etre any more by highlighting the plight of Indian Muslims. We love Pakistan regardless of how or why it came into being. And I am sure Indians, including Indian Muslims, feel the same way about India.

(Now Kashmir is a different story, but let's not get into that here...)

I, personally, have become more sensitive to the plight of Muslims worldwide particularly since the so-called GWOT has become an excuse to legitimize anti-Muslim bigotry.

 

[Developereo]

Most of the indian muslims live in economically backward states like West Bengal.Assam,UP and Bihar where the not just higher education but all human development index is less than national avg of india.

That's an interesting observation.

It would be interesting to see the Muslim/non-Muslim economic breakdown at the state level as opposed to national averages.