Pakistan still financing JuD schools: Indian media

[sulemani keeda]

Those were not terrorists, they were ordinary people who went to give independence to their brethren from an occupier with whom they did not wished to live.

Even the tajiks and uzbeks of TTP are "ordinarary people who went to give independence to their brethren from an occupier with whom they did not wished to live"

You must know that FATA has historically been Autonomous. Its your army that is intervening in the area and trying to establish its writ over there. So the TTPs agenda of attacking the "occupying force" is justified as per your logic and so is the killing of pakistani soldiers (as per your earlier logic).

 

[foxbat]

You considering it undisputed doesn't matters to us or the world, as by international definition it is a disputed territory, if you guys disagree with that, then why shouldn't we disagree with JuD being a terrorist organization ?? think logically, don't give the usual answer.

THats exactly where I started off saying that one should accept in principle either both UNSC resolutions or neither. Most Pakistani members here love the Kashmir one but accuse UN of being autocratic and non transparent when it comes to JuD. Works both ways actually

 

[ramu]

Did we dismember India, did we captured any territory ??

So India should have done the same, maximum damage and let Pakistan stay, but you guys went much above that, so the seeds for that revenge were sown and to this date we are seeing the repercussions.

Had India not done that, things might have been much different, there might had been enmity, but on a lesser scale, but here we are, people suffering from both sides.

We may have attacked directly in 65 at a specific sector, the whole front was opened by India, but we did not used terrorist groups, they way India used in 71.

So the dirty game of using terrorist organizations for strategic objectives was started by India first, we followed the Indian examples and tradition. LTTE another example of how India does things.

We cannot comment on your incapability but your intent and design was for all to see.

 

[foxbat]

Those were not terrorists, they were ordinary people who went to give independence to their brethren from an occupier with whom they did not wished to live.

I can feel your point, whatever not goes as per Indian way, that becomes a terrorist. You are not alone in that, same is done by everyone, whatever they dislike, it becomes a terrorist.

What business did they have invading a separate state. It was prior to the signing of the Instrument of Accession by the maharajah of Kashmir.

I call them terrorists because their actions conform to the PDF definition of terrorism

From Wiki

The objective of the initial invasion was to capture control of the Kashmir valley including its principal city, Srinagar, the summer capital of the state (Jammu being the winter capital). The state forces stationed in the border regions around Muzaffarabad and Domel were quickly defeated by AZK forces (some state forces mutinied and joined the AZK) and the way to the capital was open. Rather than advancing toward Srinagar before state forces could regroup or be reinforced, the invading forces remained in the captured cities in the border region engaging in looting and other crimes against their inhabitants.[9] In the Punch valley, the state forces retreated into towns where they were besieged.


From DailyTimes

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

The tribal warriors quickly forgot the mission they were supposed to achieve, and succumbed prey to a vice deeply rooted in their culture and history — looting, pillaging and raping. Among their victims were some European nuns, presumably engaged in meditation and helping the poor. Why some of our senior officers could not keep such characters under control is of course another matter, but Kashmiri opinion quickly turned against the infiltrators. The rape of the nuns brought along international disapprobation and condemnation

 

[T-Faz]

Even the tajiks and uzbeks of TTP are "ordinarary people who went to give independence to their brethren from an occupier with whom they did not wished to live"

You must know that FATA has historically been Autonomous. Its your army that is intervening in the area and trying to establish its writ over there. So the TTPs agenda of attacking the "occupying force" is justified as per your logic and so is the killing of pakistani soldiers (as per your earlier logic).

First of all FATA is not disputed territory, it is a part of Pakistan and that is the fact of the matter. Secondly, autonomous does not mean much, there are parts within your country which are not under government control, hypothetically speaking if your government launches a full fledged military operation, it will be justified to do so.

I know you are replying to him but your reply is out of context, Taimi is referring to territory where people are unwilling to settle things in an amicable manner. When Musharaf was trying to solve the Kashmir problem, some notable members of IOK had problems with such a deal.

This indicates that they themselves are willing succeed and then it our prerogative to solve this matter.

As for the topic and this media report, why would Pakistan still support what has hurt us too, you would not keep a dog that bites you or would you.

Think clearly and understand, we do not have any foreseeable benefits in financing these groups however the people that attack us and their financiers use such things to further their cause. Provide proof and if you cannot, do not come here to utilize this propaganda to malign all and one of a nation that themselves are embroiled in a violent battle with similar scum.

 

[Jade]

Do not get emotional, your govt did the same thing by supporting, training and arming the Mukhti Bani in disguise of independence for bangali people from the oppression of Pakistani Army.

Got it, so watch it what comes out of there.

It is misconception that India was the main player in Bangladesh formation. Tension between East and West Pakistan existed from the outset of Pakistan formation. Sheik Mujibur Rahman in 1949, himself, sought independence from West Pakistan.

Even though, 56% of the population resided in East Pakistan, the West Pakistan held the major share of political power. In 1970, when East Pakistanis secured a majority of the seats in the national assembly, Yahya Khan postponed the opening of the national assembly, which was a big blunder that costed Pakistan half its area and Bangladesh came into being.

As ten of million of refuge took to India. India had no choice but to intervene

 

[foxbat]

.

Well i do hope you guys never see any attack of 26/11 nature or what we have seen, as its terrible, innocents only die and not the masters playing the game of death and destruction.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is rare to see a government body funding a private organisation.

It is not rare at all. Part of an internship I had to do for a non-profit in the US involved applying for various grants, both government and private, that would fund some of the programs run by the non-profit.

Here the entity in question is suspect and the law about innocent until proven guilty needs a break.

The entity in question has a GoPu appointed administrator in place, and per the GoPu statements, the process of taking over some of the JuD charities and continuing to fund and run them was taken up with the UN, so ask them for a clarification instead of speculating.

I will give you a third option for why the govt and the courts are on the same page.

If anti Indian rhetoric is viewed as good for the country, every tom dick and harry in Pakistan will tow that line.

And appraently that is why the UN was comfortable with the GoPu taking over the charities as well eh? There is a very simple solution to this if you feel the GoPu is breaching the UNSC sanctions on JuD, raise the issue in UNSC and see if indeed the GoPu cleared the taking over and funding of these charities with the UN, and whether the UN considers such administration and funding of the charities by the GoPu as a breach of the UNSc sanctions, and asks the GoPu to henceforth cease all such funding and administrative activities related to the JuD charities.

Do you really think if a terror plot was planned in Iran and executed in Israel, you can find the evidence of planning / support in Iran ? If Pakistan cannot find any evidence, why are they prosecuting a group of men in a court away from public glare. What is there to hide if you are the pure ?

At least they are being prosecuted and allowed to defend themselves and hire lawyers, unlike the UNSC process that violates almost every single right of a defendant. Funny that you have issue with the non-public trial, and not with the far more egregious rights violations of the UNSC Taliban and AQ Sanctions Committee process.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Did Al-Qaida defend themselves or accept the ban? NO. Did Osama get a chance ?

Yes, they should all get a chance. In fact, if OBL denies that he supports acts of terrorism and he is not responsible (regardless of the final verdict based on evidence), what better propaganda coup for those opposing AQ's ideology than to have the man terrorists revere denounce their cause?

Why is Pakistan not opposed to the ban? No appeal against the ban filed in UN by JuD?

The UNSC Taliban and AQ Sanctions committee does not have a fair and independent appeals process AFAIK, otherwise why wouldn't the initial sanctions process take place under such a 'fair and transparent system' in which the accused could defend themselves?

But the JuD has appealed the ban in Pakistani courts. It is the UNSC Taliban and AQ Sanctions committee that needs to reform here.

So is funding JuD not a blatant U turn on the part of Pakistan when JuD is still a banned organisation?

Check with the UN about that, since the GoPu seems to be stating that taking over the administration and funding certain charities of the JuD was done with UN approval, as I pointed out in my previous post.

 

[rohailmalhi]

All Indian provide us with PROOF.

and if u any proof y didnt u came to court and provided proof to the court so tht he could be convicted .

if u dont have any thn plz stop chest tramping thts it .

Many of Senior Pakistani members made it clear tht JUD is banned as done by UN .
Government has taken over all the welfare activities of JUD and now they are funding it .

Wht so difficult to understand in all of tht.

Government of

 

[notsuperstitious]

Atleast we've stopped beating around the bush of technicalities and saying this is being done to avenge 1971 - a problem created by Pakistan for which India had to sacrifice the lives of thousands to to resolve.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its irrelevant whether JuD accepted that ban or not. It was between the UNSC and Pakistan govt. Pakistan govt decided to accept the ban on JuD. Post that its their responsibility to enforce it. As far as UNSC is concerned, JuD and HS are deemed terrorists and Pakistan govt agreed with them. I did not see any message from GoP on their acceptance of that ban being conditional to Pakistani courts agreeing with them

Pakistan had no say on the UNSC Taliban and AQ sanctions committee, and it is not the job of Pakistan to defend the JuD - the JuD should have been afforded the opportunity to defend it self, instead of secret bans without any due process.

Once the ban was imposed, Pakistan had no recourse but to impose it, given that it was a completely political decision taken by the UNSC, and not one based on a trial where the defendant could argue the merits of his/her case in front of an impartial judge.

Well Kofi Annan did say that the UNSC resolution on Kashmir is no longer practical. Does that in your eyes justify Indian stand on Kashmir?

That is his personal opinion, it does not overrule the UNSC resolutions, and since at no point have I (nor the GoP) argued that Pakistan should not implement the sanctions, the comparison you insist on making of India unilaterally violating the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir is invalid.

Anyway, the question of rights come in when the person is to be imprisoned or prosecuted. Dont see that happening to HS..

Not true - there are inter-state travel restrictions on him. He has been maligned through being called a terrorist. He has lost control of his charitable organization - these are all infringements of his rights without him being able to defend himself.

Legal discussion aside, how many really banned organizations and designated terrorists are able to operate the way JuD and HS does in Pakistan. As I type this, there is a news item in Indian media talking about HS hobnobbing with elected politicians.

Since the UN sanctions are limited, and since they do not prevent the affected people from meeting other people, nothing wrong with HS hobnobbing with whomever he pleases. The fact is that the majority of Pakistanis believe him to be innocent of terrorism charges, and the lack of a transparent process in the UNSC in sanctioning him and his organization, that the JuD and HS pointed out and in fact called for the right to be given a trial by the UN, only solidifies the impression that he is being deliberately and wrongly targeted, which makes it politically (domestically at least) acceptable for some politicians to 'hobnob' with him.

Not that I expect Pakistani govt to act on him or Pakistani members to not oppose that ban. But the idea is highlight the fact that the UNSC when does something that is not in interest of Pakistan, it becomes an autocratic and non transperant organization, but its resolution on Kashmir is treated as an absolute word of god. Hence the double standards

Again an incorrect analogy - I have very specifically pointed out why this particular sanctions process of the UNSC Taliban and AQ Sanctions committee is flawed, and also pointed out that there is a similar debate in EU nations over the issue of what can be done if a court rules in favor of one of the affected entities, given that the UNSC process does not offer a proper process for defence of the accused.

The UNSC resolutions on J&K however followed a much fairer process that allowed both India and Pakistan to argue their case, and in the end, both accepted the resolutions. In this case one party was given no chance to argue its case (JuD and HS).

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Atleast we've stopped beating around the bush of technicalities and saying this is being done to avenge 1971 - a problem created by Pakistan for which India had to sacrifice the lives of thousands to to resolve.

India cost thousands more lives by supporting insurgents/terrorists, long before any 'millions of refugees' crossed the border. India was part and parcel of causes of destabilization and violence in East Pakistan, by promoting what Indians call 'terrorism' today.

Which reminds me, there is a thread I forgot about ...

 

[notsuperstitious]

India cost thousands more lives by supporting insurgents/terrorists, long before any 'millions of refugees' crossed the border. India was part and parcel of causes of destabilization and violence in East Pakistan, by promoting what Indians call 'terrorism' today.

Which reminds me, there is a thread I forgot about ...

Except that this will fail to avenge 1971, for that Pakistan will have to prosecute their own. Just look at whats happened in India after Mumbai and whats happened in Pakistan.

As you sow, so shall you reap.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

THats exactly where I started off saying that one should accept in principle either both UNSC resolutions or neither. Most Pakistani members here love the Kashmir one but accuse UN of being autocratic and non transparent when it comes to JuD. Works both ways actually

But Pakistan is not unilaterally refusing to implement the ban on the JuD and HS, even if disagreements over the ban remain, unlike India which did unilaterally violate the UNSC resolutions and now refuses to implement them.

So there is no comparison to be made here.

---------- Post added at 04:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

Except that this will fail to avenge 1971, for that Pakistan will have to prosecute their own. Just look at whats happened in India after Mumbai and whats happened in Pakistan.

As you sow, so shall you reap.

I have no clue what you are talking about - where did find 'avenge 1971' in my posts?