Pakistan should be a Secular State

[irfanazmat051]

Thank to Allah, Pakistan is Islamic Republic of Pakistan and we proud of it

 

[Armstrong]

Marxism is dead, send him the funeral card.

I was a Marxist-Lennist in my youth & I still have warm feelings towards a certain kind of Socialism !

 

[irfanazmat051]

so this is not matter of Coutry this matter of faith,

 

[Secur]

Unfortunately that is just an 'intensifier', a 'focal point' if you will ! And one that shows her ugly face even in social, political & individual capacities that might not have anything to do with religion; otherwise we wouldn't hear of horrid tales of what goes on here !

A dearth of Pluralism & Rationale Thinking, are the main culprits here ! I often recall what Javed Ahmed Ghamidi once said about this - Yahaan thoriii guuftagu (conversation) ke baad phir guuftagu nahin ho saktiii !

If some people cant even explain why do they mean by ' Khilafat ' , how it is different from democracy , what are its functions , who runs it and how is he chosen and how it can be implemented in today's world and but remain fond of it and want that to be the system of the country , what should I call them ? The intensifier , you speak of , in too intense , in my opinion , it is functioning without any sound logic or sense and remains a rallying cry for radicalized masses of the nation , prompting them to violently suppress the opposition's voices or to stop , what they consider wrong . How exactly , does religion , becomes relevant in everything literally ? Just how ? I cant understand how exactly is issuing death threats or executing the barber , who shaves and does his work to earn his livelihood , becomes a prominent pillar of Islam .

Exactly , commandatore . A dearth of pluralism rationale thinking arises from illiterate and poor majority which can be easily manipulated , do not think for themselves and follow the superior being * anyone from Mullah/Moulvi/Moulana/Mufti/Political-Tribal-Feudal leader/other influential * line of thought . Isn't Mr Ghamdi , an infidel , according to the popular " scholars " ? I am sorry , I have lost track of the declared kuffars living under Islamic disguise - A Munafiq to be exact .

 

[Kompromat]

I was a Marxist-Lennist in my youth & I still have warm feelings towards a certain kind of Socialism !

World's only Marxist-Lennist state is called 'North Korea' - Our folks offered its Jannaza in Afghanistan and buried it in the Oxus river. The fundamental thing wrong with Socialism, or at least the Lenenism was that they believed in a bogus concept called 'equality'. No society on planet earth has ever been successful in creating this frankenstein of 'equality'. Its a wild goose many nations have chased and sleep walked into oblivion as this monster called equality is not only bogus but an unnatural concept.

Now you might be thinking that i'm going to shoot off some racist/supremacist or some other 'Ist' agenda here --- no you are wrong. I believe the right measurement for a successful society is what you stated earlier 'Egalitarianism' - or to put it simply, a society based on 'fairness' instead of 'equality' , where everyone has a fair play to realize their potential.


Since i know your intellectual ability and critical thinking skills are of the highest order, i feel compelled to shoot off a few more seemingly outrageous thoughts at you. You see the essence of democracy is that the 'majority opinion wins' and gets the power while the minority opinion loses and works hard to get into power. So, if the Democracy is Majoritist by nature and application, would it be wrong if a large portion of our society came up and demanded Islamic Democracy? - I think it wont be wrong, what do you think?

Now lets tackle the other argument of 'Pakistan was not created for Muslims only, because there are minorities in it, therefore an Islamic state is 'by design and definition discriminatory' to the minorities.' - But is it? - If Majoritism is a democratic behavior than why should the minority opinion be used to black mail the majority opinion? - Do we want to become like Syria,S.Africa and Zimbabwe where a 'minority apartheid' did lead to multiple mass murder,chaos, even civil wars in the past 30 years - in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM - is that just a co-incidence? - Is this also, a co-incidence that a vast majority of Afghans were not communists, but when the commies ceased power by deception, and political design, it ultimately lead to an oblivion that was inflicted on the Afghans from 1978-1989 ?

If Democracy is majoritist by nature, and application, than 'why should a vast majority of Pakistanis be bullied into submit their wish to see an Islamic egalitarian democracy and a reformed banking system' ? - Only to earn some brownie points that the 'minorities are protected' - what sort of IQ level does it take to sacrifice lets say 80% of the opinion for appeasing the 3% ? - Is that a democratic behavior or a destabilizing, potentially fatal minority apartheid which has proved its deadly effects over time?

Peace

@Developereo @ajpirzada @Xeric @TaimiKhan @Hyperion @ghilzai @Pak-one @Luftwaffe @Secur @Marshmallow @Neptune @Slav Defence @Alpha1 @Spring Onion

 

[Armstrong]

If some people cant even explain why do they mean by ' Khilafat ' , how it is different from democracy , what are its functions , who runs it and how is he chosen and how it can be implemented in today's world and but remain fond of it and want that to be the system of the country , what should I call them ? The intensifier , you speak of , in too intense , in my opinion , it is functioning without any sound logic or sense and remains a rallying cry for radicalized masses of the nation , prompting them to violently suppress the opposition's voices or to stop , what they consider wrong . How exactly , does religion , becomes relevant in everything literally ? Just how ? I cant understand how exactly is issuing death threats or executing the barber , who shaves and does his work to earn his livelihood , becomes a prominent pillar of Islam .

Exactly . A dearth of pluralism rationale thinking arises from illiterate and poor majority which can be easily manipulated , do not think for themselves and follow the superior being * anyone from Mullah/Moulvi/Moulana/Mufti/Political-Tribal-Feudal leader/other influential * line of thought . Isn't Mr Ghamdi , an infidel , according to the popular " scholars " ? I am sorry , I have lost track of the declared kuffars living under Islamic disguise - A Munafiq to be exact .

And that is precisely the reason why it is even more imperative to look towards violence, extremism & mis-governance - the hallmarks of a failing state, elsewhere & devise an approach that looks to treating the cause & not the symptoms of the disease ! That disease which is, in my humble opinion, nothing more or less than a dearth of pluralism & rationale thought ! Any other way to fix our situation would be a cosmetic fix at best & might I say it many of the purported solutions would be extremely inexpedient & lead us to terrible ruin.

Let us begin by reforming the Educational System & Syllabi by introducing Critical Thought & Holistic Learning & by free & reasonably well-enough Education available to all !

 

[Armstrong]

@Aeronaut - Barring the critique on Socialism, I agree with the rest !

And I've often been perturbed by the lack of rational thought on part of those who take a different stock of these things. Ironically enough many of the most ardent supporters of Secularism, Democracy & Freedoms, have the knack of defining them in the most convoluted & at times ludicrous of ways that the ones whom could be credited with their coinage would look at with utter astonishment instead of agreement !

Unfortunately those who take an opposing view to them are even more irrational in their statements & advocacy !

Both are condescending, presumptuous & most of all both have the tendency of viewing themselves as the epitome of human intellect & throw a tantrum when their views aren't taken to be the Gospel Truth !

 

[Kompromat]

@Aeronaut - Barring the critique on Socialism, I agree with the rest !

And I've often been perturbed by the lack of rational thought on part of those who take a different stock of these things. Ironically enough many of the most ardent supporters of Secularism, Democracy & Freedoms, have the knack of defining them in the most convoluted & at times ludicrous of ways that the ones whom could be credited with their coinage would look at with utter astonishment instead of agreement !

Unfortunately those who take an opposing view to them are even more irrational in their statements & advocacy !

Both are condescending, presumptuous & most of all both have the tendency of viewing themselves as the epitome of human intellect & throw a tantrum when their views aren't taken to be the Gospel Truth !

I expect you to answer my post point by point.

 

[Armstrong]

I expect you to answer my post point by point.

Bhai bohat lanmbiii haiii !

Muhje lagtaa haii @Oscar nei merii post ko murawat mein hiii thanks kar diyaaa...koi dil sei agreement nahin thiii !

 

[Secur]

And that is precisely the reason why it is even more imperative to look towards violence, extremism & mis-governance - the hallmarks of a failing state, elsewhere & devise an approach that looks to treating the cause & not the symptoms of the disease ! That disease which is, in my humble opinion, nothing more or less than a dearth of pluralism & rationale thought ! Any other way to fix our situation would be a cosmetic fix at best & might I say it many of the purported solutions would be extremely inexpedient & lead us to terrible ruin.

Let us begin by reforming the Educational System & Syllabi by introducing Critical Thought & Holistic Learning & by free & reasonably well-enough Education available to all !

Even if the cause is hidden , the result is well known , friend . Am I wrong here ? The only problem here is that the general awareness about the ' disease ' is close to zero * negligible * and will remain such , in the foreseeable future . So , if the Pakistanis aren't even ready to acknowledge the problem , what hope lies there for recovery , in any way ? Even though , I will tell you that , we need to get ourselves to a rehabilitation center from all these religious overdoses , before we are put to a 5150 psychiatric hold - if you understand what I mean !

Yeah , now that is a good plan . Because the current education system doesn't promote the free and critical thinking patterns and doesn't leave the student to reach to his own conclusions and respect everyone else's too .

 

[Dance]

I'd vote for a Pluralistic Democratic Pakistan - Neither Secular nor Islamist, where someone as exceptional as Justice Rana Bhagwandas could become the President of Pakistan but at the same time our State Bank would be allowed, as per the mandate it was given by our Quaid, to evolve a system of economics that is inline with the principals of Islam !

I believe in Pluralism, Democracy & Islamic Paradigms (should we wish it) - the crux of every single one of the Quaid's & Iqbal's speeches since they became associated with the Pakistan Movement including his 11th August Speech & the Allama's the Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam.

I do believe that both the advocates of an Islamic State & those of a Secular State assume beyond what the contents of any of what the Quaid & Iqbal said mandated & most of the time, many, define Secularism in a manner that Holly Oakes would probably find woefully inadequate & likewise Islamism in a way that even the Koran wouldn't be able to agree with !

' @Dance @Oscar @Chak Bamu @Aeronaut @Hyperion @Secur @Abu Zolfiqar

Well said

 

[Secur]

@Aeronaut

I would have answered some of the points , in your post if I wasn't low on time , at the moment .

But for the moment , let us just ask the question ' Why , any Islamic party with an Islamic agenda in Pakistan hasn't been able to win the elections by a majority/near-majority/total majority/majority required to legislate in the last 60 years - the last being most prominent since only by that , can they get their idealist system implemented through a democratic way in this country but only piggybacked on other liberal parties/army/dictatorships ? What does that tell us about the thinking of a common Pakistani - barring the ' influence ' for a moment I talked earlier in my post here - assuming everyone is voting freely without any pressure or influence ?

 

[Dance]

@Aeronaut

I would have answered some of the points , in your post if I wasn't low on time , at the moment .

But for the moment , let us just ask the question ' Why , any Islamic party with an Islamic agenda in Pakistan hasn't been able to win the elections by a majority/near-majority/total majority/majority required to legislate in the last 60 years - the last being most prominent since only by that , can they get their idealist system implemented through a democratic way in this country but only piggybacked on other liberal parties/army/dictatorships ? What does that tell us about the thinking of a common Pakistani - barring the ' influence ' for a moment I talked earlier in my post here - assuming everyone is voting freely without any pressure or influence ?

I'll take a stab at your question.

I feel like most Pakistanis like to "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk". Pakistanis like to show off how religious they are around others, but they don't actually practice what they preach. I can't even count how many Pakistanis that I know who act "shareef and good" around family and other Pakistanis but when they are away from that environment, they do a 180 in the way they act.

Majority of Pakistanis would like to say that they would live in a country similar to Saudi Arabia or Iran-again to show how pious they are. But when it comes down to it, they don't. Which is why religious parties don't do well in elections and non-religious parties do.

Sorry if this sounded too simple or it was not the answer you were looking for.

 

[Secur]

I'll take a stab at your question.

I feel like most Pakistanis like to "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk". Pakistanis like to show off how religious they are around others, but they don't actually practice what they preach. I can't even count how many Pakistanis that I know who act "shareef and good" around family and other Pakistanis but when they are away from that environment, they do a 180 in the way they act.

Majority of Pakistanis would like to say that they would live in a country similar to Saudi Arabia or Iran-again to show how pious they are. But when it comes down to it, they don't. Which is why religious parties don't do well in elections and non-religious parties do.

Sorry if this sounded too simple or it was not the answer you were looking for.

You are most welcome .

Right on the money too . So , they all want to ' walk the walk of the giants ' but nobody , I say nobody wants to drink the Johnnie Walker - if you get my drift ? This is the most common thing - I have noticed in my society . The religious than thou attitude , even though an overwhelming majority of them , wont even be doing the 10% , they spoke of , in a conversation/meeting/gathering/other places and modes of interactions . I can understand , what are you hinting at ' by 180 degree turns ' , living in the States and seeing the behavior of the fellow Pakistanis who are all pious and religious in Pakistan , but not so in the U.S - for reasons well known .

I know the wish though it is always superseded by the lucrative Green Card and the American nationality - even H1B wouldn't you say , mate ? No , sometimes the answer to a complex problem , is very simple and I believe this is just another instance of that happening .

 

[Dance]

You are most welcome .

Right on the money too . So , they all want to ' walk the walk of the giants ' but nobody , I say nobody wants to drink the Johnnie Walker - if you get my drift ? This is the most common thing - I have noticed in my society . The religious than thou attitude , even though an overwhelming majority of them , wont even be doing the 10% , they spoke of , in a conversation/meeting/gathering/other places and modes of interactions . I can understand , what are you hinting at ' by 180 degree turns ' , living in the States and seeing the behavior of the fellow Pakistanis who are all pious and religious in Pakistan , but not so in the U.S - for reasons well known .

I know the wish though it is always superseded by the lucrative Green Card and the American nationality - even H1B wouldn't you say , mate ? No , sometimes the answer to a complex problem , is very simple and I believe this is just another instance of that happening .

Pakistanis love to show off about how they are "better" Muslims then every one else. Yet stealing, killing, lying, and corruption is rampant in Pakistan and these things are strictly forbidden in Islam.

The thing is that society in Pakistan programs people to be that way, theres no concept of mind your own business and respect other peoples beliefs. As was mentioned in this thread by Armstrong and others, there is no tolerance anymore. You can't flourish as a society and a country if there is no space for debate and discussion of different viewpoints. And if you have a different viewpoint, you're shunned from society or perhaps even killed.

I knew this one guy who was so anti west and used to talk about how morally corrupt western society is. Last time I heard, he was trying to get a visa for Canada. This is good example of how people like to talk the talk and don't walk the walk.