Pakistan should be a Secular State

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

I was trying retrieve a you tube program of Shahidnama by Dr. Shahid masood with Roedad khan and other "lumanaries" and the subject was the nitty-gritties of what constitutes khilafat/caliphate etc.. Man, you would be surprised nobody had any cogent idea and were mumbling and talking incoherently as Shahid masood ripped into their "(non)explanations."

I am very sure people just know this word and that's all. If they try it, it will be a case of out of the frying pan into the fire

Well you seem to be an expert on it, to lay a comparison between a frying pan into the fire and the system of Khilafat.. Let me hear it then???

 

[Kompromat]

“The great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (may peace be upon him). We are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in rights, dignity and self-respect. Consequently, we have a special and a very deep sense of unity. But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it.” - Jinnah

No one is advocating a theocracy either.

 

[Wright]

I dont understand why the Islamic republics don't follow the Caliph system. That is the only true form of Islamic governance - as it is ordained by the muslim god. Anything else is really cannot be called "islamic".

 

[dexter]

Till 1958 Pakistan didnt have one , the document which we were using as constitution was gov act of india which was created in 1935,
Still If Jinnah just wanted democracy and secular state then why he didnt became the 1st president of india when they offered him , but he wanted a state which can be ruled under Islamic law a video just for you maybe this shows what Qaid e azam wanted

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=171350389665728

@truthlover @OrionHunter @Aeronaut

Dr.Israr Ahmed was one of the very educated and greatest scholar !

 

[k_arura]

FYI, I am NOT an expert. But I have enough common sense to figure out that folks who cry aloud about this system etc. have no idea themselves. And I have NO interest in trying to understand this so-called system either any more than trying to understand the flat-earth society's erstwhile arguments in favor of their stance of the time!

But I will say that I will happily wish it upon my enemies to actually adopt the Khilafat/Caliphate/Islamic-jamhuriyat/etc. (we have seen some samples of it in the FATA region by the Taliban).

 

[Kompromat]

Please, show me clear evidence about his "crystal clear" vision for Pakistan. One that cant be countered with him saying one thing at one period and then saying the opposite in another period.

He was a politician and had his compulsions, what must be understood is that the 'political wisdom & the rationale for the demand of a separate state' was NOT formed by Jinnah. Two nation theory was not the brain child of Jinnah, nor was the objectives resolution. All three pillars of 'Pakistan as a philosophy' were developed by Iqbal. Jinnah and his team were the 'political manifestation' of the 'ideological genius' of Iqbal.

If you want to read what Pakistan means as a matter of philosophy and as an idea and what it ought to be, i'd invite you to read this book, before we indulge into further discussion.

This is the most important piece of work done by Iqbal, even more so than the legendary political poetic work he has done.

I dont understand why the Islamic republics don't follow the Caliph system. That is the only true form of Islamic governance - as it is ordained by the muslim god. Anything else is really cannot be called "islamic".

I sense a buried bone.

FYI, I am NOT an expert. But I have enough common sense to figure out that folks who cry aloud about this system etc. have no idea themselves. And I have NO interest in trying to understand this so-called system either any more than trying to understand the flat-earth society's erstwhile arguments in favor of their stance of the time!

But I will say that I will happily wish it upon my enemies to actually adopt the Khilafat/Caliphate/Islamic-jamhuriyat/etc. (we have seen some samples of it in the FATA region by the Taliban).

Are you going to voluntarily stop trolling or would have to be 'Made' to stop ?

 

[Dance]

He was a politician and had his compulsions, what must be understood is that the 'political wisdom & the rationale for the demand of a separate state' was NOT formed by Jinnah. Two nation theory was not the brain child of Jinnah, nor was the objectives resolution. All three pillars of 'Pakistan as a philosophy' were developed by Iqbal. Jinnah and his team were the 'political manifestation' of the 'ideological genius' of Iqbal.

If you want to read what Pakistan means as a matter of philosophy and as an idea and what it ought to be, i'd invite you to read this book, before we indulge into further discussion.

This is the most important piece of work done by Iqbal, even more so than the legendary political poetic work he has done.



I sense a buried bone.





Are you going to voluntarily stop trolling or would have to be 'Made' to stop ?

Thanks, I will look into it.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

No one is advocating a theocracy either.

Hi Dude!! And I still remember to have met you on a thread on Khilafat.

Looks like History has repeated itself early..

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

FYI, I am NOT an expert. But I have enough common sense to figure out that folks who cry aloud about this system etc. have no idea themselves. And I have NO interest in trying to understand this so-called system either any more than trying to understand the flat-earth society's erstwhile arguments in favor of their stance of the time!

Then sTop Trolling!!

But I will say that I will happily wish it upon my enemies to actually adopt the Khilafat/Caliphate/Islamic-jamhuriyat/etc. (we have seen some samples of it in the FATA region by the Taliban).

Unfortunately for you, they are not our role model for the system...

 

[Kompromat]

Thanks, I will look into it.

I don't know if you have read Iqbal before. I would definitely suggest you to avoid reading his work on a 'couch' with a pile of pistachios lying round you. This book is philosophy of the highest order and ought to be read with care, attention and respect.

 

[Dance]

I don't know if you have read Iqbal before. I would definitely suggest you to avoid reading his work on a 'couch' with a pile of pistachios lying round you. This book is philosophy of the highest order and ought to be read with care, attention and respect.

I have but very briefly back in school. I've been meaning to read more about Iqbal and Jinnah, haven't had time yet.

I've purchased Stanley Wolpert's book on Jinnah, look forward to reading that

 

[Kompromat]

I have but very briefly back in school. I've been meaning to read more about Iqbal and Jinnah, haven't had time yet.

I've purchased Stanley Wolpert's book on Jinnah, look forward to reading that

Must read book about Jinnah.

This may sound odd, but i truly wish that somehow i could meet him, just once.

 

[Dance]

Must read book about Jinnah.

This may sound odd, but i truly wish that somehow i could meet him, just once.

Yes thats another book thats on my list.

I said this on another thread, if only Jinnah lived longer the Pakistan we see today would be so different. A good different I think.

Indians were lucky that Nehru lived a good amount of years after partition.

 

[truthlover]

The above is an example of what one gleans from own background and state, and makes the mistake of projecting it onto the nation as a whole.

Basic mistakes:

1. Our present situation would seem to indicate that we are actually LESS motivated by Nationalism.

2. Politicians do seem to use the name of Islam, just because in most Islamic countries it is such an important part of language and higher social ethos. However OP issues a blanket statement making it seem as though All politicians use the name of Islam All the time and always for a 'dirty' purpose. OP needs to learn a bit more about our society, its norms, and the place religion is customarily given.

3. OP is concerned that 'we' are a product of confused ideology and distorted history. He really should be talking about himself here. His opinions are mostly about himself. He does not seem to appreciate the fact that Pakistanis are confronting open-ended questions, answers to which are crucial for our future in light of our back-ground. When he talks about 'Islam' being more in politics than being in 'our' lives, he is again projecting his self-perception onto the nation as a whole.

4. The OP then talks about personal experience and asks in which country do people drink and have sex in Mujra parties. OP needs to understand that A) Mujra is something specific to Northern parts of South Asia, B) Orgies happen in many places, presumably including Pakistan, C) As far as personal experiences go, I doubt 99.9% Pakistanis have ever participated in any such thing. So again we have a situation where OP is projecting his perception onto the nation as a whole.

5. OP's contention that 'almost all Pakistanis have interest bearing accounts' is laughable. He really should be more careful about how he phrases his contentions and refrain from projecting his personal opinions with such gusto.

6. OP's observations about cultural practices have no bearing upon his contention. No need to discuss.

7. Lastly, OP's views about Murree Brewrey's business are noted with utmost regret. I am rather fond of their non-alcoholic beverages. Plus we do have non-Muslims, for whom Alcohol is OK. It would be an attack on their liberties to deny them that. So one significant part of Islam's practical secular heritage is irksome to the OP. He really should just chill.

First of all what i do and what is my background is none of your damn business.
1)Until 1956 pakistan was not an islamic republic and in the ayub khans government this confused ideology of nationalism with islam was started.The pakistan which M.A jinnah opted for only existed between 1947-1955.
2)I don,t need to know how many people do drink and involved in sexual activities.I just know one thing that whatever things in mentioned are no where related to islam and in an islamic republic we should never allow such things. Miniorties are quite little and our so called islamic government knows that the company is earning a huge revenue from its muslim pakistani customers but still they let the company operate because they are paying huge taxes(any double standard in an islamic republic)
Whatever you said represents your own mindset and it,s no where close to reality.
An islamic republic is no longer an islamic republic where it can,t serve its purpose and creates confused ideology and damage religion.
And the ones in this thread claiming that jinnah didnt know what he wanted should be ashamed.The one who made this country for us didnt know what he wanted but after decades you know better how this country should be?This is a strong proof of people like you who tried to distort history and made pakistan a joke.
Before starting this thread i was aware that this is going to be a very long and never ending topic.I am a proud secular and i believe in what my leader M.A jinnah opted for this country and that modern,well educated and open minded person is a role model for me.
Say this country thousand times an Islamic republic but believe me it is and always will be practically a secular country.I believe making it secular will just help us in getting rid from the religious radicalism in some sects in our society. Other than that i think nothing is going to change too much because we are already doing a lot of unislamic things.
I did not open this thread for imposing my views on everyone and similarly everyone here is a right to express his opinion.I am ending my discussion here and others can participate and express their freely if they want to.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Basically we are less islam driven and more driven by nationalism .Politicians uses islam wherever the saw the opportunity to full fill their dirty objectives .Today in our country islam mostly exists in politics and less in our real lives and we are the product of confused ideology and distorted history

are you sure? I think most of the Muslims are observant ones. One can see it when they look around. Of course you have also confused people who wear religion on their SLEEVES but not in their hearts, and their minds are dirty and corrupt. Ive seen it.

I personally know many foreigners who were shocked when they saw Pakistan with their own eyes rather than the perception about pakistan they developed from media.According to them it is less islamic than most muslim countries.Tell me in which pure islamic country like saudi arabia etc people have sex and drink in mujra parties?

.

Man, are you kidding me? Like in ANY country, there will be folks drinking booze - including Muslims. Isnt that between man and God? Isnt Islam about living a life to one's fullest and to please God and fear Him? So people have the option on how to live their life and then face God.

What is a "pure Islamic country"? Is it really Saudi Arabia? Isnt monarchy forbidden in Islam? Why are they run by kings and princes? Have you seen how some of those princes live? They have gold faucets in their airplanes, they drink booze and party like rock-stars in London Paris and Monaco. They have plenty of girls to choose from -- recruiters find the girls for them.

as for mujra parties - yeah the concept is disgusting and it should be banned....I was against the government for giving recognition to those people

Where they have a vulgar film industry like ours?

We have a film industry?? News to me.

I thought we were just known for our dramas; and those are just consisting of dialogue between aunties uncles and with some storyline in between. I wouldnt know, i dont watch tv.

Our banking system is not islamic and almost all pakistanis have interest bearing accounts.

We have a CHOICE on which banking system to utilize. Islamic banking is HUGE in Pakistan. Every major Islamic bank has offices and branches in Pakistan. Do research.

In islam there is just nikkah and walima but here we celebrate mehdis and barats .

So? It's part of the culture. Every Islamic country has different cultural mores. Or should we just forget the culture too? Should we forget our language also and speak Classical Arabic?

In which islamic nation there is a licensed alcohol manufacturing company(muree brewary in pakistan) and 90% of their customers are muslims?Practically we are secular people living in a islamic state.

Muree Brewery is a business owned and run by a Parsi family. It's a family-run business. Who buys their product is a personal thing. Not for public discussion. I saw a documentary about the breweries. You even have Muslim people working there - and they still pray. They dont drink. I dont see a big deal in that. Murree Breweries has won international awards - it brings in money through exports. The business pays taxes to the government and isnt operating underground. You see what those other crooks do - the ones who make booze in their homes and end up killing 30 people in secret parties.

Pakistan is a capitalist country.

And I think when you have 180 million people (a big country) you cant label everyone as Islamist or secularist. People are mixed on their religious or political leanings.

The best path is the middle path. But that's just my opinion. We know why alcohol and other such things are haram in Islam. God gave us a BRAIN to use, to make rational decisions.

Spirituality should come naturally. It shouldnt be shoved down our throats.