Pakistan Sets Eyes on China’s New J-35 Fighter Jet

[LeGenD]

Thank you Araz for your thoughts. And it's not a question of being "correct" or "incorrect", there's only so much detail available publicly. I would agree with a lot of your thoughts, but one of the things which we do not yet know for certain is whether the Western suppliers of those critical technologies would allow third party collaboration and/or export of the TFX. For example, BAE has been selected as the design and development partner, and as you've described, the TFX will use the EJ200 engine, at least until the Turks develop there own equivalent. But then that begs the question, if you think the Chinese do not have mature engine technology, why would the Turks be any different? As you've described, the core critical component will be engine tech, especially for the power requirements for a fifth gen type. If the Europeans do not allow third party collaboration or export license for the EJ200, then the TFX is a no go, at least until, or if, it ever gets a Turkish powerplant. But I think the chances of the Turks developing a high quality engine is about the same as the Chinese, and we've seen how even the Chinese have struggled in this regard. China would still be the less risky option in terms of design and development, and perhaps the Russians as an option for the powerplant, on the back of the relationship with Klimov and the RD-93. But besides all that, we don't even know whether the TFX would pass the requirements of the PAF, or the FC-31/J-35 for that matter, in which case the PAF is left with pursuing a bespoke design with external design and development assistance.

Turkey has learned a great deal from its dealings with NATO partners; Turkish industries are a byproduct of this collaboration and they have worked on different projects including F-35. I believe that Turkey will be able to produce a good engine in time.

WE can/should reach out to Turkey to offer us a PAK-specific TFX - one that will contain components which are not likely to be sanctioned. If this is not possible, WE can strive for a JV of our own in connection with Project Azm. Turkish expertise in this domain would be invaluable to us if secured.

 

[Deino]

Sorry again to have a different opinion and even more to add some sorrections:

....
Turkey will soon start engine manufacturing/Subassembly of the EJ 200 series which is a much more mature engine than anything that the Chinese will be able to provide given their current progress.
...

No, Turkey will not and IMO never manufactre any EJ200 as long as Germany is a member of the Eurojet-consortium .

... the TFX will use the EJ200 engine, at least until the Turks develop there own equivalent. But then that begs the question, if you think the Chinese do not have mature engine technology, why would the Turks be any different? ....

Thats wrong. The EJ was a contender for the prototypes and rejected. The TFX prototypes will use GE F110 engines (if ever) and what indigenous engine will follow next is unclear.

 

[The Raven]

Turkey has learned a great deal from its dealings with NATO partners; Turkish industries are a byproduct of this collaboration and they have worked on different projects including F-35. I believe that Turkey will be able to produce a good engine in time.

WE can/should reach out to Turkey to offer us a PAK-specific TFX - one that will contain components which are not likely to be sanctioned. If this is not possible, WE can strive for a JV of our own in connection with Project Azm. Turkish expertise in this domain would be invaluable to us if secured.

Yes, that is true, and I wasn't diminishing any of the achievements that the Turkish industry has developed over time, which is amply demonstrated in some of the products, such as drones and avionics. But one has to remember that simply working alongside NATO partners or the F-35 (which they no longer have access to by the way) is very different from developing a core fundamental research and industrial base from which to develop truly independent technology and products. At the heart of modern engine production is advanced material research and single crystal blade technology, which the few countries who have mastered will be unwilling to share with anyone else. This is one of the reasons why the Chinese have struggled in developing engines, even after decades of development work.

Sorry again to have a different opinion and even more to add some sorrections:

No, Turkey will not and IMO never manufactre any EJ200 as long as Germany is a member of the Eurojet-consortium .

Thats wrong. The EJ was a contender for the prototypes and rejected. The TFX prototypes will use GE F110 engines (if ever) and what indigenous engine will follow next is unclear.

Thanks for the corrections Deino

 

[araz]

Sorry again to have a different opinion and even more to add some sorrections:



No, Turkey will not and IMO never manufactre any EJ200 as long as Germany is a member of the Eurojet-consortium .





Thats wrong. The EJ was a contender for the prototypes and rejected. The TFX prototypes will use GE F110 engines (if ever) and what indigenous engine will follow next is unclear.

Thank you. Did not know this. They are talking about an indegenous engine being ready in 2023. Do you know which one this is? I was led to believe this was the ej200 series.
Regards
A

Thank you Araz for your thoughts. And it's not a question of being "correct" or "incorrect", there's only so much detail available publicly. I would agree with a lot of your thoughts, but one of the things which we do not yet know for certain is whether the Western suppliers of those critical technologies would allow third party collaboration and/or export of the TFX. For example, BAE has been selected as the design and development partner, and as you've described, the TFX will use the EJ200 engine, at least until the Turks develop there own equivalent. But then that begs the question, if you think the Chinese do not have mature engine technology, why would the Turks be any different? As you've described, the core critical component will be engine tech, especially for the power requirements for a fifth gen type. If the Europeans do not allow third party collaboration or export license for the EJ200, then the TFX is a no go, at least until, or if, it ever gets a Turkish powerplant. But I think the chances of the Turks developing a high quality engine is about the same as the Chinese, and we've seen how even the Chinese have struggled in this regard. China would still be the less risky option in terms of design and development, and perhaps the Russians as an option for the powerplant, on the back of the relationship with Klimov and the RD-93. But besides all that, we don't even know whether the TFX would pass the requirements of the PAF, or the FC-31/J-35 for that matter, in which case the PAF is left with pursuing a bespoke design with external design and development assistance.

Thank you very much for another great post. I enjoy interacting ewith people who can argue a point with a thought process behind it. I fully agree with your assessment.
I was not aware that the turks has gone down the F100/F110 engine. I doubt they will get export licence if the T129 is anything to go by. My thoughts were based on the EJ series subassembly which is why I thought we might have a mature product on our hand. However, Export licences are a political ploy to keep nations in check so this might plague the TFX as well. Thank you once again.
A

 

[LKJ86]

They are talking about an indegenous engine being ready in 2023.

Are you seriously???

 

[Oracle]

There is 99% chance that Pakistan will start using 5th generation at least a year before India

 

[araz]

Are you seriously???

See my lates post which might explain the reason for this statement.
Regards
A

 

[LKJ86]

There is 99% chance that Pakistan will start using 5th generation at least a year before India

If India chooses Su-57?

 

[LeGenD]

Yes, that is true, and I wasn't diminishing any of the achievements that the Turkish industry has developed over time, which is amply demonstrated in some of the products, such as drones and avionics. But one has to remember that simply working alongside NATO partners or the F-35 (which they no longer have access to by the way) is very different from developing a core fundamental research and industrial base from which to develop truly independent technology and products. At the heart of modern engine production is advanced material research and single crystal blade technology, which the few countries who have mastered will be unwilling to share with anyone else. This is one of the reasons why the Chinese have struggled in developing engines, even after decades of development work.

I understand that, bro. Thank you.

 

[Tumba]

Turkey has learned a great deal from its dealings with NATO partners; Turkish industries are a byproduct of this collaboration and they have worked on different projects including F-35. I believe that Turkey will be able to produce a good engine in time.

WE can/should reach out to Turkey to offer us a PAK-specific TFX - one that will contain components which are not likely to be sanctioned. If this is not possible, WE can strive for a JV of our own in connection with Project Azm. Turkish expertise in this domain would be invaluable to us if secured.

Pakistanis shud not put so much faith in turkey specially for 5th gen., turkey gets nato left over tech for so called home grown products but DNA is either euro and some case Korean, And now without nato backing home grown mil industry will soon matching iranian propaganda stories, chinese are only hope for faster 5th gen acquisition for pakistanis.
Pretty sure if pakistani economy can stand on its own feet in a decade or so Paf will be flying some chinese stealth by 2030 and India trying to catch it up in few years.

 

[Armchair]

If PAF buys the J-35 in numbers, it will mean the death of Project Azm.

 

[Trailer23]

If PAF buys the J-35 in numbers, it will mean the death of Project Azm.

If PAF buys the J-35 in numbers, it will become Project Azm.

 

[KaiserX]

If PAF buys the J-35 in numbers, it will mean the death of Project Azm.

Dude PAF is not going to buy the J-35. J-35 is a modified J-31 for carrier operations. Dont know if you even bother to read through the thread but there has been over 100+ posts on this now.

PAF will def go for the J-31/FC-31, its not a matter of if but when. J-31 will not turn into Azm. PAF is completely content on focusing on a domestic 5th generation program even if it takes another decade or more to join service. Until then J-31 will fill in the numbers as a stop gap.

 

[PakAlp]

If PAF buys the J-35 in numbers, it will become Project Azm.

Pakistan air force project AZM will be a chinese jet with Pakistani input and possible Pakistani chosen avionics, missiles systems if available.

We are still waiting for Chinese military to decide which 2nd 5th generation fighter jet they will they be producing, we will follow the Jf17 route which is highly successful project for Pakistan. Project AZM will also be successful InshaAllah, just the delay is killing us. We should have introduced 5th generation by 2025 but now even 2030 looks too early, by 2035 the world powers will be introducing 6th generation whilst we be introducing 5th. So always a generation behind the world powers.

 

[maverick1977]

Pakistan air force project AZM will be a chinese jet with Pakistani input and possible Pakistani chosen avionics, missiles systems if available.

We are still waiting for Chinese military to decide which 2nd 5th generation fighter jet they will they be producing, we will follow the Jf17 route which is highly successful project for Pakistan. Project AZM will also be successful InshaAllah, just the delay is killing us. We should have introduced 5th generation by 2025 but now even 2030 looks too early, by 2035 the world powers will be introducing 6th generation whilst we be introducing 5th. So always a generation behind the world powers.

you gotta have fifth generation aircraft in few years.. keep on working on Azm for mass production of stealth fighter to replace jf 17 in 15 years, meanwhile pakistan has to get 2 to 3 SQ of stealth fighters