Pakistan seeks Russian help in modernizing engine repair facilities & attain RD93 repair capability

[Beast]

Its not about the best or worst. its suitable for JFT class thats why its used and PAF is fairly happy with it. if you wana say that we should have sukhoi enignes in JFT then its a wrong move because of aircraft weight class.

Chinese engine is also same and untested even. only 10% more thrust is said to be provided by chinese engine.

Most important, it dont smoke and 10% is consider a massive increase. F-119 is also considered new compare to F-100 engine, doesnt that mean it shouldn't be used for F-22?

 

[araz]

hi dear @AgNoStiC MuSliM
I am fully aware of the term as i have my own share of experience with defence industry and know how couple of things work! I have been trying to vehemently state the same thing for past 5 years now. TOT is misnomer,countries normally dont part away with critical technologies that they painstakingly created or perfected over decades. I mean look at india - HAL manufactures russia's near top of the line engine AL-31 at koraputt facility yet the most important part of the engine- the HC blades still come from russia. Same is the case with RD-33 engines used in mig-29. Not only that,GTRE cant copy the exact same arrangement of igniters used in either RD-33 or AL-31 coz all of them are patented. Kaveri engine couldnt perform as per the specs primarily because of accoustic instabilities that can be mitigated if we go for certain structural modifications of combustion chamber or arrangement/design of igniters. What boggles my mind is the degree of misconception among pakistani members here(and to some extent indian members as well) regarding the tot and how research is done!

A fair and logical post. You will find that the less jingoistic amongst us have been saying more or less the same. One needs to be realistic in ones assumptions about what their country is capable of and Pakistani aviation industry is in its infancy. The pattern of growth is where India was probably 20 yrs ago. However we are curently on a development spree which is seen in most nations at this stage. Zooner or later it will come to taking a bigger step which would lead to hardships and setbacks which is where you are. The rest is all nothing more than banter and mine is bigger than yours kind of talk.
A

 

[amardeep mishra]

A fair and logical post. You will find that the less jingoistic amongst us have been saying more or less the same. One needs to be realistic in ones assumptions about what their country is capable of and Pakistani aviation industry is in its infancy. The pattern of growth is where India was probably 20 yrs ago. However we are curently on a development spree which is seen in most nations at this stage. Zooner or later it will come to taking a bigger step which would lead to hardships and setbacks which is where you are. The rest is all nothing more than banter and mine is bigger than yours kind of talk.
A

Hi dear @araz
I am a researcher hence i tend to be a wee bit more critical of how research takes place and where we stand. I am sure a researcher worth his salt would go strictly by reasoning and not by petty blind nationalism. The trends we see in pakistan particularly in reference to research and industrial/academic research is typical of india in late 80s- yes i am being fairly honest,in fact in some sectors it is even back.But what is important is constant flow of funds along with "adequately trained manpower"- this is very important - when i say "man power",i mean nothing less than PhDs that have published at least one serious paper in top notch journals like AIAA,transaction of non linear control etc etc.
Yes i fully agree with your point that you'll run into hardships once you start taking giant steps- because you'll run into issues that are less understood or worse countries who understand that particular issue wont part away with their knowledge of mitigating that.A very relevant case is kaveri engine- you wont believe but india painstakingly mastered the first gen of single crystal blades even blisk and thermal barrier coating however thanks to AI(acoustic instability) ruined the project. THe phenomenon of acoustic instability was lesser known among indian research community and very very few folks here had done some serious studies back in 90s when this project was going on full steam. You see,every project tells a story,and the $500mn invested in kaveri havent gone wasted,a new generation of engines have been taken up for development by GTRE/HAL and they are in fact going in for 3d printing of a smaller 25kN engine that is being designed by HAL for trainer jets

 

[araz]

Hi dear @araz
I am a researcher hence i tend to be a wee bit more critical of how research takes place and where we stand. I am sure a researcher worth his salt would go strictly by reasoning and not by petty blind nationalism. The trends we see in pakistan particularly in reference to research and industrial/academic research is typical of india in late 80s- yes i am being fairly honest,in fact in some sectors it is even back.But what is important is constant flow of funds along with "adequately trained manpower"- this is very important - when i say "man power",i mean nothing less than PhDs that have published at least one serious paper in top notch journals like AIAA,transaction of non linear control etc etc.
Yes i fully agree with your point that you'll run into hardships once you start taking giant steps- because you'll run into issues that are less understood or worse countries who understand that particular issue wont part away with their knowledge of mitigating that.A very relevant case is kaveri engine- you wont believe but india painstakingly mastered the first gen of single crystal blades even blisk and thermal barrier coating however thanks to AI(acoustic instability) ruined the project. THe phenomenon of acoustic instability was lesser known among indian research community and very very few folks here had done some serious studies back in 90s when this project was going on full steam. You see,every project tells a story,and the $500mn invested in kaveri havent gone wasted,a new generation of engines have been taken up for development by GTRE/HAL and they are in fact going in for 3d printing of a smaller 25kN engine that is being designed by HAL for trainer jets

Agreed with your post. Indian research has been a bit haphazard and I suspect part of it is complacency and part lack of funding by babus sitting high up. We on a much smaller scale have this problem too. I also agree that the research gone into engine technology will not go to waste but have always felt that India should have been a bit more circumspect and realistic in its aspirations. The project started should perhaps been a much easier one than designing your own fighter jet and instead gone for a trainer to fighter to insure that you did not encounter failures on a high profile project. This is my only criticism of Indian aviation endeavours. I have already pointed out that if I were IAF I would have bought the M2K assembly line from the french in return for installing a better engine into M2Ks in due course and minor rights to build parts to progress on to more components as your expertise built up. The french were a bit desperate and might have relented in view of the lucrativeness of the deal.
A

 

[tarrar]

This is a very good news for Pakistan & Pakistan should try to acquire more stronger & better engines for new types of JF17 which will come in the future.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Pakistan DGDP has currently invited a tender to buy 10 RD93 engines. On the other side, RosoboronExport has appointed an agent for RD93 deal, a Pakistani person who runs a restaurant in Moscow and without any current defence credentials, or the ability to support the RD93 project. Pakistan AF may start looking for other engine options direct support from Russians from amicable and practical channels remained unavailable.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi dear @araz
I am a researcher hence i tend to be a wee bit more critical of how research takes place and where we stand. I am sure a researcher worth his salt would go strictly by reasoning and not by petty blind nationalism. The trends we see in pakistan particularly in reference to research and industrial/academic research is typical of india in late 80s- yes i am being fairly honest,in fact in some sectors it is even back.But what is important is constant flow of funds along with "adequately trained manpower"- this is very important - when i say "man power",i mean nothing less than PhDs that have published at least one serious paper in top notch journals like AIAA,transaction of non linear control etc etc.
Yes i fully agree with your point that you'll run into hardships once you start taking giant steps- because you'll run into issues that are less understood or worse countries who understand that particular issue wont part away with their knowledge of mitigating that.A very relevant case is kaveri engine- you wont believe but india painstakingly mastered the first gen of single crystal blades even blisk and thermal barrier coating however thanks to AI(acoustic instability) ruined the project. THe phenomenon of acoustic instability was lesser known among indian research community and very very few folks here had done some serious studies back in 90s when this project was going on full steam. You see,every project tells a story,and the $500mn invested in kaveri havent gone wasted,a new generation of engines have been taken up for development by GTRE/HAL and they are in fact going in for 3d printing of a smaller 25kN engine that is being designed by HAL for trainer jets

Hi,

Your comments about lack of research are correct to a point.

If the indian example of kaveri was used in other developing nations----they would have hanged those engineers for failing to deliver after wasting billions----.

Somebody has sold you a bridge----this process was managed and maintained to keep income coming and jobs open on a promise and a whim.

It was all a drama----this job was no started to work within the limits of available and understandable technology without laying any foundation of development.

Engineering processes are a frame of mind----and your example will only work in india but nowhere else---because other nations may not care about made in their nation or otherwise. They maybe more focused on cost effective means and looking at the end results---.

Case in point---south korea---germany---sweden---norway---italy----,

The standards of operation in wasteful spending that are set by hindustan engineering works are only good for hindustan---because of the mindset and the perception created behind it---ghattiyya hai--chalo apna tau hai---it is cheap but it is ours----.

In a dissimilar manner---pakistan's engineering works does not work in that manner---it does not need to. Our needs and resources do not require us to manufacture an engine---but it requires us to form a joint venture where we are the lesser partner---or just a partner in maintenance and upgrades----.

Because any utility other than that does us no good.

 

[killerx]

I agree this is step we need to take before we cross of mark of 100 JF17 thunder fleet and capability to overhaul RD-93 will improve PAF JF17 fleet peace time and war time performance.

 

[araz]

Pakistan DGDP has currently invited a tender to buy 10 RD93 engines. On the other side, RosoboronExport has appointed an agent for RD93 deal, a Pakistani person who runs a restaurant in Moscow and without any current defence credentials, or the ability to support the RD93 project. Pakistan AF may start looking for other engine options direct support from Russians from amicable and practical channels remained unavailable.

What options are available?. As far as I know the French are not playing ball. The EJ200 engine is a possibility and given UK overtures to the Air chief and the possible offer of EFT may ensure commonality. However UK products are known to be expensive and I am not sure EJ200 will have enough power to cover the AESA and other goodies which PAF wants on the Block 3. The issue of sanctions will also be on PAFs mind. WS 13 is untested and therefore unsafe. Ukraine has products but I don't know how reliable their chain of suppliers is and whether the engine is good enough to work. I have disregarded US for obvious reasons.
A

 

[Quwa]

I don't think Ukraine has an appropriate turbofan design for JF-17, and even if by some miracle they decide to develop one, I don't think we'll see it for at least a decade.

 

[ghilzai]

I don't see any time soon Russian help in Engine repair and facilities as it will take time to build trust level with Russia, they will not jeopardise their existing relationships and business opportunities with nations like India.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

What options are available?. As far as I know the French are not playing ball. The EJ200 engine is a possibility and given UK overtures to the Air chief and the possible offer of EFT may ensure commonality. However UK products are known to be expensive and I am not sure EJ200 will have enough power to cover the AESA and other goodies which PAF wants on the Block 3. The issue of sanctions will also be on PAFs mind. WS 13 is untested and therefore unsafe. Ukraine has products but I don't know how reliable their chain of suppliers is and whether the engine is good enough to work. I have disregarded US for obvious reasons.
A

Indeed, Snecma is not available. EJ200 is dealt by the Germans and they are still riding the Eurofighter wave and not hungry yet. EJ200 would fear that the chinese would reverse engineer their engine. WS13 is not yet an option. There is no UKR engine. RD93 or its higher thrust sister is the only option.

 

[Syed_Adeel]

Most important, it dont smoke and 10% is consider a massive increase. F-119 is also considered new compare to F-100 engine, doesnt that mean it shouldn't be used for F-22?

well i did not say that 10% is ignorable, but atleast 100+ of our jets will be rd 93 powered thats we need its parts and maintenance . ws13 is yet to be tested completely once its operational i would love to see it with JFT. but on the same side. rd93 is proven tech and PAF is happy with rd 93 too.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I don't see any time soon Russian help in Engine repair and facilities as it will take time to build trust level with Russia, they will not jeopardise their existing relationships and business opportunities with nations like India.

Agreed, Russians will never play by PAF urgency. Worst is, Rosoboronexport has assigned a restaurant owner as their agent for RD93 ,and China will do their best to sabotage the deal.

 

[aanshu001]

Are they are not same smokey inferior tec used in non DSI Indian MIGs which PDF members mocked for years??