Pakistan seeks Russian help in modernizing engine repair facilities & attain RD93 repair capability

[IceCold]

India is actually happy that Pakistan is using poor quality RD-93 & not farcnore advanced Rd-33mk

Sour grapes? Since India could not stop the sales of Rd 93, the engines suddenly became poorer.

 

[IceCold]

Having a repair and overhaul facility is one thing and having the technological capability to design a metallurgical process to manufacture HC blades,thermal barrier coating ,blisk is entirely another! The report merely points to the "wish" of certain PAC official regarding the possibility of an overhauling facility in pakistan. Pakistan doesnt even have a program to manufacture car engine or rotary wankel engine(for use in smaller uavs) and we are talking gas turbines?great!

Read my post again I said if we can it could do wonders for us. Not that its happening as we speak

 

[Death In Fire]

Sour grapes? Since India could not stop the sales of Rd 93, the engines suddenly became poorer.

Everybody knows that RD-93s are downgraded versions of RD-33.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

my dear friend,and who exactly do you think is sharing the "technology" of RD-93?

There's a misconception over the phrase 'ToT' - it doesn't imply a blanket transfer of the technology involved in manufacturing every single material (and components fabricated from said materials) in the system. ToT can be to varying degrees. Some of the most critical and secretive technology is in fact in materials engineering - the materials used to fabricate the jet engine blades for example, and I doubt Pakistan is trying to obtain that particular information for in house fabrication at this point in time.

From what I understand, these initial discussions are for a repair and overhaul facility. The next step would be local assembly of engines from imported components after which you might see a gradual increase in locally produced components.

India was not 'unable to prevent'. There is another 25 billion cheque writer called China involved. Overhaul etc. guess can go forward. The original title of the thread was misleading.

Since China, at this point, is not inducting the JF-17 (Their single engine fighter needs are being met by the J-10), I don't see how the Chinese played a role.

Putin is, if nothing else, a very proud and nationalistic Russian leader - the argument that he was arm-twisted by the Chinese into providing engines for a Pakistan specific fighter jet isn't a strong one. The Chinese may have engaged with the Russians on Pakistan's behalf, but even they would not burn their influence with the Russians over an engine.

To understand why the Russians agreed to supply the engines, just take a look at the current state if Russia-Pakistan relations - there is increasing engagement on military and economic issues. These developments did not occur overnight - the engagement between military and government officials has been occurring for years now. The agreement to provide engines for the JF-17 was one of the first tangible steps taken as part of that engagement process.

 

[amardeep mishra]

There's a misconception over the phrase 'ToT' - it doesn't imply a blanket transfer of the technology involved in manufacturing every single material (and components fabricated from said materials) in the system. ToT can be to varying degrees. Some of the most critical and secretive technology is in fact in materials engineering - the materials used to fabricate the jet engine blades for example, and I doubt Pakistan is trying to obtain that particular information for in house fabrication at this point in time.

hi dear @AgNoStiC MuSliM
I am fully aware of the term as i have my own share of experience with defence industry and know how couple of things work! I have been trying to vehemently state the same thing for past 5 years now. TOT is misnomer,countries normally dont part away with critical technologies that they painstakingly created or perfected over decades. I mean look at india - HAL manufactures russia's near top of the line engine AL-31 at koraputt facility yet the most important part of the engine- the HC blades still come from russia. Same is the case with RD-33 engines used in mig-29. Not only that,GTRE cant copy the exact same arrangement of igniters used in either RD-33 or AL-31 coz all of them are patented. Kaveri engine couldnt perform as per the specs primarily because of accoustic instabilities that can be mitigated if we go for certain structural modifications of combustion chamber or arrangement/design of igniters. What boggles my mind is the degree of misconception among pakistani members here(and to some extent indian members as well) regarding the tot and how research is done!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

hi dear @AgNoStiC MuSliM
I am fully aware of the term as i have my own share of experience with defence industry and know how couple of things work! I have been trying to vehemently state the same thing for past 5 years now. TOT is misnomer,countries normally dont part away with critical technologies that they painstakingly created or perfected over decades. I mean look at india - HAL manufactures russia's near top of the line engine AL-31 at koraputt facility yet the most important part of the engine- the HC blades still come from russia. Same is the case with RD-33 engines used in mig-29. Not only that,GTRE cant copy the exact same arrangement of igniters used in either RD-33 or AL-31 coz all of them are patented. Kaveri engine couldnt perform as per the specs primarily because of accoustic instabilities that can be mitigated if we go for certain structural modifications of engine or arrangement/design of igniters. What boggles my mind is the degree of misconception among pakistani members here(and to some extent indian members as well) regarding the tot and how research is done!

We are in complete agreement on this.

 

[amardeep mishra]

QUOTE="AgNoStiC MuSliM, post: 7877126, member: 4261"]We are in complete agreement on this.[/QUOTE]

@AgNoStiC MuSliM
I mean,you wont believe,HAL's first stint with indigenous gas turbine came in around 70s with HJE-2500 turbojet engine. Kaveri is in all aspects india's second attempt at designing an aero engine,however this time the requirements were very very stringent - as per the international standards- taken from various international magazines. Unfortunately back in late 80s/early 90s when kaveri was taken up,indian industry wasnt matured enough.
here are couple of pics that i took in HAL museum bangalore

this is one of the first piston engine designed by HAL for smaller aicrafts

india's first turbojet engine designed in 1965

 

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

Its not about the best or worst. its suitable for JFT class thats why its used and PAF is fairly happy with it. if you wana say that we should have sukhoi enignes in JFT then its a wrong move because of aircraft weight class.

Chinese engine is also same and untested even. only 10% more thrust is said to be provided by chinese engine.

Yes we should have the most suitable equipment for our planes.

India is actually happy that Pakistan is using poor quality RD-93 & not farcnore advanced Rd-33mk

Who says it is poor quality. It is not poor quality but appropriate quality for now. We will improvise and move forward as the requirements change in future.

 

[EagleEyes]

I think it just the writer wish. WS-13 will debut next year.

WS-13 is the future but the RD-93 is the present, we need RD-93 cooperation to fit and sell quickly!

 

[karakoram]

Read my post again I said if we can it could do wonders for us. Not that its happening as we speak

sorry for being off topic but where does your want Nawaz sharif to GO ?

 

[Wolf]

who gave you the idea that it had anything to do with JF 17. We just cut a cheque for 25 Billion. We'd need any and all competitive advantage from Russian tech to come to us- including by denying any parts that are coming to you. You guys wanna otherwise build up your pet jet to mythical status that's your project.



Soya Beans

despite all your attempts of denial, Pakistan is getting something of its choice every now and then. By your attempts to deny any military technology to Pakistan, we are confident that Pakistan is doing good in defence and despite being 5 times lesser in terms of resources and area is giving indians nightmares.

Ohh yes we have moved beyond slums and are developing and fastest growing economy but you my friend are still stuck in failed nation hypnosis.
You have to grow up first then you can talk about yourself.

Tell me my friend have you ever made a mopped engine in Pakistan or just a engine for bicycles. Well what van we expect from your nation if it can't even make a bike engine let alone aircraft engine.

dont go into fancy details. fact of the matter is whatever we do and how we do it, we have Al - Khalid operational, we have JF-17 operational, we have nukes operational ( do keep into equation tactical nukes). we will be having rd 93 repair/overhaul facilites which may help in developing our own engne in future.

i would like to know no. of tejas, arjuns deployed on ur side.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

There's a misconception over the phrase 'ToT' - it doesn't imply a blanket transfer of the technology involved in manufacturing every single material (and components fabricated from said materials) in the system. ToT can be to varying degrees. Some of the most critical and secretive technology is in fact in materials engineering - the materials used to fabricate the jet engine blades for example, and I doubt Pakistan is trying to obtain that particular information for in house fabrication at this point in time.

From what I understand, these initial discussions are for a repair and overhaul facility. The next step would be local assembly of engines from imported components after which you might see a gradual increase in locally produced components.


Since China, at this point, is not inducting the JF-17 (Their single engine fighter needs are being met by the J-10), I don't see how the Chinese played a role.

Putin is, if nothing else, a very proud and nationalistic Russian leader - the argument that he was arm-twisted by the Chinese into providing engines for a Pakistan specific fighter jet isn't a strong one. The Chinese may have engaged with the Russians on Pakistan's behalf, but even they would not burn their influence with the Russians over an engine.

To understand why the Russians agreed to supply the engines, just take a look at the current state if Russia-Pakistan relations - there is increasing engagement on military and economic issues. These developments did not occur overnight - the engagement between military and government officials has been occurring for years now. The agreement to provide engines for the JF-17 was one of the first tangible steps taken as part of that engagement process.

Dude, 'current state of Russia Pak relations is really a myth that you're propagating. It may be unpalatable, but the fact is that there is nothing that Pak can offer that matches a large country like India. you got what- 4 helicopters? Did you buy nuclear subs? 250 Pak Pa fighters? Amaranta tanks? Most importantaly India and Russia are friends despite our increasing friendship with America. There is no one here ready to go after Russia with a pitchfor.

We spent '10 billion with USA so Russia has got close to Pakistan'. Russia has another USD 40 billion in it's sight.

As far as JF 17 sales are concerned, the prime customer was China. You didn't buy it direct from Russia but through China.

 

[rocket booster]

despite all your attempts of denial, Pakistan is getting something of its choice every now and then. By your attempts to deny any military technology to Pakistan, we are confident that Pakistan is doing good in defence and despite being 5 times lesser in terms of resources and area is giving indians nightmares.


dont go into fancy details. fact of the matter is whatever we do and how we do it, we have Al - Khalid operational, we have JF-17 operational, we have nukes operational ( do keep into equation tactical nukes). we will be having rd 93 repair/overhaul facilites which may help in developing our own engne in future.

i would like to know no. of tejas, arjuns deployed on ur side.

Well as you had committed that Chinese jf 17 is ready and Chinese MBT 3000 tank is ready why don't you go to how many arjun tanks are operational and how many of them have been given further orders.
Also indian nukes are also operational which are of far more yield than Pakistan have.
Also do tell me when did India get nightmares from a 6 times smaller and poor country.
Well if you talk about aircrafts strength then please do learn that we are preparing ourselves for a two front war so let alone Pakistan fighting India alone.
We will be happy to know when your ghost of Kashmir gives you vibes of vengeance and you start approaching Pakistan with jihad in your mind to capture and carve it from India because when that happens we will surely like to vaporize one country frombthe face of the earth.
Now coming to your strategic nuke blabber, well what can be the best thing when a country nukes its own landmass, we will be happy that you use it on your own land. Because that will give you India the. Chance to nuke you from India's nuclear triad and looking at the size of Pakistan it won't be long when your country will be long gone from a planet called earth.
So get up from your sweet dreams.

 

[Wolf]

Well as you had committed that Chinese jf 17 is ready and Chinese MBT 3000 tank is ready why don't you go to how many arjun tanks are operational and how many of them have been given further orders.
Also indian nukes are also operational which are of far more yield than Pakistan have.
Also do tell me when did India get nightmares from a 6 times smaller and poor country.
Well if you talk about aircrafts strength then please do learn that we are preparing ourselves for a two front war so let alone Pakistan fighting India alone.
We will be happy to know when your ghost of Kashmir gives you vibes of vengeance and you start approaching Pakistan with jihad in your mind to capture and carve it from India because when that happens we will surely like to vaporize one country frombthe face of the earth.
Now coming to your strategic nuke blabber, well what can be the best thing when a country nukes its own landmass, we will be happy that you use it on your own land. Because that will give you India the. Chance to nuke you from India's nuclear triad and looking at the size of Pakistan it won't be long when your country will be long gone from a planet called earth.
So get up from your sweet dreams.

what chinese tank and what chinese fighter, are u having 100% bharti components in ur teja and that arjun. dont inflate yourself. By ur talk it seems usa has somehow delegated its status to you which is definitely not the case. If u had any power to do anything to Pakistan u could have done it 2 years ago. From here on your task will only become impossible. What are you smoking as if you will use nukes and you will survive? as if you will attack us and you will have home run. It has been 68 years and Pakistan is here in front of you. Talking about nightmares, well if getting some weapons from russia gives u back aches then you are wrong to say that we dont give you nightmares. We are a poor country and we dont stand a chance against you then come over what the hell is stopping ur pathetic countrymen. Your policy makers know it very well the price which you will have to pay for the misadventure. At most what you can achieve is a mutually assured destruction.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Engine tech is the most closely guarded secret. No nation till yet has given away that tech to another, voluntarily. So we should forget about that aspect of the discussion.

The thing that might happen is main. and repair and overhaul of engines supplied by Russia. If Pakistan want to develop engines then techs, metallurgists, engineers and designers need to be trained abroad and if we can afford the cost, start from a light air breathing engines and work our way to a full fledged turbojet.

But that would be 25 year project if not more .