Pakistan seeks Russia, South Korea and New Zealand's support for Nuclear Suppliers Group membership

[war&peace]

Proof that the PA calls the shots in foreign policy is the Pak chief always meeting presidents and Prime ministers when the army chiefs have nothing to do with policy which is the prerogative of an elected democratic government. What business does an army general have with heads and duly elected representatives of other nations?

Can you name me one DEMOCRATIC country that allows their chiefs and sundry generals to hob nob with heads of other nations discussing policy? Shouldn't your defence minister or defence secretary be meeting with foreign dignitaries instead of Raheel Sharif for discussing security and related issues?

Here, for example....

With David Cameron

With Defence Secretary Michael Fallon. Where's your defence minister? Or defence secretary?

With US Secretary of State

With Ghani

With Iranian President Hassan Rouhani

It does seem without a doubt that the PA is calling the shots in Pakistan!

Simply because the current civilian govt is incompetent so PA got the gap and they had to intervene....who is stopping NS from appointing a capable FM...When BB was in govt, she was in much of control of foreign affairs and policy since she was competent in that area and especially when her father was PM, army had little to no say in foreign affairs. So stop blaming PA for the incompetency of the civilian govt. By the way what's the interest of an Indian in it?

 

[Hulk]

Well thanks for your well wishes but the truth is we have messed up or foreign policy and diplomatic efforts real bad in last two three years or so and i do not see much effort being out in to improve that. Sadly, our concerned authorities do not seem to be well aware of the important of this in today's world.

I would blame part of it to two power centers of Pakistan Army and Government. No other country Army does not allow country to take foreign policy decision. In addition you have a problem of being realistic, world is about give and take you win some you lose some.

 

[OrionHunter]

By the way what's the interest of an Indian in it?

What interest does an Indian have in it? Plenty! Indo-Pak relations have been screwed up due to total and complete policy inaction by your headless foreign office and the incompetence of the 80 year old PM's adviser on Foreign Affairs, Mr. Sartaj Aziz who keeps spewing hot air at the drop of a hat thereby, vitiating the atmosphere.

A dedicated foreign minister is the need of the hour. Look at where your foreign policy is today. It's in a state of complete hibernation even while Modi is busy pulling the rug from under your feet. You guys need a smart dedicated foreign minister to prevent further isolation on the world stage.

 

[war&peace]

What interest does an Indian have in it? Plenty! Indo-Pak relations have been screwed up due to total and complete policy inaction by your headless foreign office and the incompetence of the 80 year old PM's adviser on Foreign Affairs, Mr. Sartaj Aziz who keeps spewing hot air at the drop of a hat thereby, vitiating the atmosphere.

A dedicated foreign minister is the need of the hour. Look at where your foreign policy is today. It's in a state of complete hibernation even while Modi is busy pulling the rug from under your feet. You guys need a smart dedicated foreign minister to prevent further isolation on the world stage.

It is due to your dear NS...who epitomises the incompetence.

 

[OrionHunter]

It is due to your dear NS...who epitomises the incompetence.

'Our' dear NS?

 

[My-Analogous]

I dont think Pakistan gives foreign policy the importance it deserves...... You so not have a full time foreign minister...... Not only that The army chief is acting as a foreign minister (if i believe the posts and threads in PDF)....... I remember you had a good foreign minister (forgot his name), he was with zardari regime and later went with Imran khan's party i believe..... I felt he was good

Sorry guys but NS don't have any family members left for this post

It is due to your dear NS...who epitomises the incompetence.

No mate this was not the case check above post

 

[Arsalan]

Sometimes it is illuminating to look at things from the other side of the lens:

If Pakistan has anything to offer to the world, but it is not able to present it to the world "properly", then, as far as the world it is concerned, it is only claimed to exist, which may or may not be true.

Similarly, what you describe as the state of affairs is seen by the world as a military holding its nation to ransom by inverting the chain of command. One can try to justify it as much one likes, but that blunt truth will still shine through.

Both issues above are huge problems for Pakistan. And only Pakistan can solve them. If it can.

Let me try to address both these points separately one by one;

Firstly, what you said about world perception is true. I was not saying that the world should take us for our word and believe in what we claim to have to offer. The point always was about need to “make” the world know about what we have to offer and my stress on the fact that this is not something impossible. All we need to do it to decide on this and start working on these lines. Slowly things will start to change for better as far as our global image is concerned. The foreign policy needs to be revised and then implemented vigorously with more focus with good relations on the whole world and as less polarization as possible.

Secondly, with all due respect, what you call a blunt truth to shine through is nothing but a serious misunderstanding and a story created based on the fact that military have always been one of the more efficient institutes of Pakistan. Saying that the foreign policy is run by military is seriously mistaken, now is this perception (if there is one) based on wrongly presented facts or is a carefully manufactured story is not what I am educated to debate on. However I for one is a firm believer that while military, being a strong influential institute, seems to be on the front line, suggesting that the government do not have control over foreign policy is wrong. Do you think government is not the deciding authority on who to support or get close to, Iran or Saudia? That is absurd sir. The government do have the control, however if they do not have the guts or the skill to make a good foreign policy and engage other nations with diplomacy (which is their JOB for crying out loud) it is not to be blamed on military.

 

[VCheng]

Firstly, what you said about world perception is true. I was not saying that the world should take us for our word and believe in what we claim to have to offer. The point always was about need to “make” the world know about what we have to offer and my stress on the fact that this is not something impossible. All we need to do it to decide on this and start working on these lines. Slowly things will start to change for better as far as our global image is concerned. The foreign policy needs to be revised and then implemented vigorously with more focus with good relations on the whole world and as less polarization as possible.

Try all you want, the world goes by actual results delivered and not by potentials claimed. The day Pakistan can actually offer something that the rest of the world finds useful, they will pay attention, but not before.

Secondly, with all due respect, what you call a blunt truth to shine through is nothing but a serious misunderstanding and a story created based on the fact that military have always been one of the more efficient institutes of Pakistan. Saying that the foreign policy is run by military is seriously mistaken, now is this perception (if there is one) based on wrongly presented facts or is a carefully manufactured story is not what I am educated to debate on. However I for one is a firm believer that while military, being a strong influential institute, seems to be on the front line, suggesting that the government do not have control over foreign policy is wrong. Do you think government is not the deciding authority on who to support or get close to, Iran or Saudia? That is absurd sir. The government do have the control, however if they do not have the guts or the skill to make a good foreign policy and engage other nations with diplomacy (which is their JOB for crying out loud) it is not to be blamed on military.

Your thoughts on this article would be interesting, I am sure:

http://www.dawn.com/news/1262101/military-march

What you regard as absurd has the weight of irrefutable evidence over decades behind it.

 

[Arsalan]

Try all you want, the world goes by actual results delivered and not by potentials claimed. The day Pakistan can actually offer something that the rest of the world finds useful, they will pay attention, but not before.

Perhaps i was again not able to make myself clear. The point is NOT that the world SHOULD take our word on this matter. The stress is and always was not the need to PROVE our claims by our actions and policies so what you are saying is not even the argument here.

Your thoughts on this article would be interesting, I am sure:

http://www.dawn.com/news/1262101/military-march

What you regard as absurd has the weight of irrefutable evidence over decades behind it.

Evidence or accusations?
I think you know me enough that i wont call a thing absurd unless i am quite convinced about it being just that.
My point remains the same, if any one to say that the government do not have the control to decide who they are to be friends with, Iran or Saudia?
The lapses we see in our diplomatic efforts today are more due to the incompetence and lack of seriousness of governments rather then the military interventions.

 

[VCheng]

Perhaps i was again not able to make myself clear. The point is NOT that the world SHOULD take our word on this matter. The stress is and always was not the need to PROVE our claims by our actions and policies so what you are saying is not even the argument here.

That is a fair point, as long as the world is not expected to wait for Pakistan to get its house in order. The world will move on, regardless.

Evidence or accusations?
I think you know me enough that i wont call a thing absurd unless i am quite convinced about it being just that.
My point remains the same, if any one to say that the government do not have the control to decide who they are to be friends with, Iran or Saudia?
The lapses we see in our diplomatic efforts today are more due to the incompetence and lack of seriousness of governments rather then the military interventions.

You are perfectly entitled to that opinion. Unfortunately, it does not find much traction outside Pakistan these days.

 

[Arsalan]

That is a fair point, as long as the world is not expected to wait for Pakistan to get its house in order. The world will move on, regardless..

It is not like they would move on to another planet,
Yes we are late already but should that stop us fro acting now? Isn't it like that "better late then never" thing?
Plus where do you get an indication that was asking for the world to wait for Pakistan? The point, right from the beginning, was about the need to get things right.
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...s-group-membership.434159/page-4#post-8376419

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...s-group-membership.434159/page-4#post-8376491

You are perfectly entitled to that opinion. Unfortunately, it does not find much traction outside Pakistan these days.

Well sir that too is a matter of perception and a point of view or opinion. We can stick to what we believe in and think that it is what the world is all about same. However that can be only as true as someone else believing in something else. It is not a LAW after all and we all know who much even the civilized world care about law.

Thing is, people usually end up finding things they are looking for and this very debate is a prime example of that.

 

[VCheng]

It is not like they would move on to another planet,
Yes we are late already but should that stop us fro acting now? Isn't it like that "better late then never" thing?
Plus where do you get an indication that was asking for the world to wait for Pakistan? The point, right from the beginning, was about the need to get things right.
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...s-group-membership.434159/page-4#post-8376419

https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...s-group-membership.434159/page-4#post-8376491


Well sir that too is a matter of perception and a point of view or opinion. We can stick to what we believe in and think that it is what the world is all about same. However that can be only as true as someone else believing in something else. It is not a LAW after all and we all know who much even the civilized world care about law.

Thing is, people usually end up finding things they are looking for and this very debate is a prime example of that.

Given the fact that this thread is about Pakistan trying to drum up support for its stance to get into the NSG at the same time as India, the points I made above are some of the key reasons Pakistan is finding it quite difficult to convince the world of its narrative. That is all.

 

[Arsalan]

Given the fact that this thread is about Pakistan trying to drum up support for its stance to get into the NSG at the same time as India, the points I made above are some of the key reasons Pakistan is finding it quite difficult to convince the world of its narrative. That is all.

Yeah i understand that.
I don't say or think otherwise either.

 

[tarrar]

Pakistan is much better in Nuclear technology & safety amongst the two.

 

[gurbakash]

Viewpoint: India's nuclear lobbying and an increasingly isolated Pakistan
Source:
Ahmed Rashid

India's American-backed bid to join the prestigious Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) has once again isolated Pakistan in South Asia.

Pakistan is increasingly finding itself friendless in the region as Iran, Afghanistan and India all find fault with Pakistan's inability to end terrorism on its soil and in particular to bring the Afghan Taliban to the table for peace talks, as Islamabad promised to do nearly two years ago.

The 48-nation NSG, which sets global rules for international trade in nuclear energy technology, has become the latest diplomatic battleground between India and Pakistan. It is due to hold a crucial meeting this month. The Pakistani military is angry that after Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's recent trip to Washington, the US has been furiously lobbying all member countries to give India a seat at the NSG table.

Pakistan then asked for the same, but its proliferation record is not as good as India's and it clearly would not succeed. Instead, it has asked China to veto the Indian bid which it is likely to do. However, smaller countries are angry with the US, who they accuse of browbeating them, and complain that neither India nor Pakistan can become members until they sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) which is an essential requirement.

President Obama backs Indian entry to nuclear technology

Pariah to friend: Narendra Modi and the US come full circle

President Obama is going against his own policy of nuclear restraint and disarmament by offering to make India - but not Pakistan - a member of the NSG, when the US has also tied up plans to sell India six nuclear power plants.

Image copyright Reuters
Image caption India's economy is growing fast and it has plans to build many nuclear plants
At the same time the US has shown in several dramatic steps that it is deeply unsatisfied with Pakistan's efforts to stop the Afghan Taliban operating out of Pakistan. Last month it used a drone in Balochistan province to kill Mullah Akthar Mansour, the Taliban leader, which led to Pakistan accusing the US of violating its sovereignty.

The US then publicly accused Pakistan of not doing enough to stop the Taliban and the Haqqani militant group - and in a clear signal of support to the beleaguered Afghan government, President Obama has allowed remaining US forces in Afghanistan to fight alongside Afghan forces.

Finally, during Mr Modi's trip the US publicly condemned those extremist groups operating out of Pakistani Punjab and Kashmir whose activities Islamabad has not stopped. In what was seen as a clear snub and a signal of defiance to the US and India, the military allowed Hafiz Saeed, the leader of Lashkar-e-Taiba who is wanted for the Mumbai bombings in 2008, to lead prayers last Friday in Islamabad.

The military's fear is that it believes the US is withdrawing from South Asia and will leave behind its rival India as the regional policeman - something it cannot tolerate. The military has already accused Iran and Afghanistan of hosting Indian spies which are working to undermine Pakistan and in particular sabotage the One Road One Belt route and transportation network that China has promised to build from the Gulf port of Gwadar to China.

Pakistan's relations with Afghanistan are as bad they have been for years, and not much better with Iran. After waiting for more than a year Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has now washed his hands of trying to persuade Pakistan to get the Taliban to hold talks with Kabul. His frustration has clearly been supported now by the Americans.


Meanwhile, with sanctions against Iran having ended, civilian politicians and the public were looking forward to the quick building of an Iranian oil and gas pipeline that would give Pakistan desperately needed energy and electricity. However after Islamabad accused Iran of hosting Indians trying to sabotage Pakistan's economy, Iran is now nursing its pride.

China remains Pakistan's closest ally but China, too, is becoming frustrated. It plans to build a $45bn transportation and energy link up to its grand Silk Route project through Central Asia, but it wants the military to use its political influence to first end the Taliban-led war in Afghanistan and the insurgency in Balochistan province.

The chronic state of Pakistan's foreign policy has affected domestic politics. Part of the problem is that there is little input from the civilian government of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif or the foreign ministry or parliament into making policy - that has become the domain of the military.

Mr Sharif has wanted to improve ties with India, Iran and the US but he has been unable to do so. Meanwhile, opposition politicians have accused Mr Sharif of surrendering all foreign policy decisions to the military.

The military in turn are deeply frustrated - and here they have considerable public support - that Mr Sharif has not appointed a foreign minister or improved governance. He has not even given up the portfolio for foreign affairs even as he recovers from open heart surgery in London.

The region is changing rapidly and Pakistan needs urgently to address its security and improve relations with its neighbours.