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Pakistan seeks missiles, radar from France: Report

Special lobby has started once again to stop pakistan having access to lastest military hardware. French doesnt really give a ***'s *** about this, all they want is to sell their products and generate money. They are willing to sell rafale to pakistan, wouldnt that two go in the chinese hands? Its the same case that indian lobby did when US was selling the F-16s to pakistan. If US doesnt has a problem, how will the French have.
 
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this is an independent analysis of this expected arms deal between pak and france

French arms deal with Pakistan risks US ire
By Federico Bordonaro

The news last month that Pakistan is likely to get French air-to-air missiles (AAMs) and radar for its JF-17 fighter aircraft has raised some eyebrows in the US.

The reason is that MICA AAMs produced by MBDA and RC-400 multimission radar built by Thales may enrich China's rapidly growing military capabilities if sold to Pakistan, since Islamabad is developing its fighter plane jointly with Beijing. The JF-17 is a lightweight multi-role fighter co-developed by Pakistan



Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation under a joint venture of China and Pakistan.

Thus, some observers say, the widely debated European Union arm systems ban against China may finally be circumvented, in such a way that it could damage US efforts to keep Beijing's air power at disadvantage vis-a-vis Taiwan. As some Indian and Pakistani sources have pointed out, French-built Mirage fighters owned by Taiwan are actually equipped with such missiles and radar.

Taiwan and India are obviously concerned with China's military build-up. If China gets the chance to closely look at French advanced technology in possession of Taipei, Beijing could theoretically become capable of countering it effectively.

However, it must be noted that the issue of military technology transfer is fairly complicated, and that Pakistan's acquisition of French systems is not automatically a dramatic reinforcement of Chinese capabilities, unlike some reports suggest.

In fact, if French companies sell radar and missiles to Pakistan, they don't sell the know-how necessary to build such systems from scratch. Clearly, bits of the source code needed to integrate the components into the JF-17 will be transferred by the French to the Pakistanis. Missile-radar integration and avionics will be developed by France and Pakistan, with the Chinese contribution focused on hardware.

This means that if Pakistan transfers such code to Beijing, China could actually become capable of integrating the two systems into its fighter jets (like the J-10), although it will not include the JF-17 in its air force. But it does not mean that Beijing will be able to produce such systems.

Therefore, the key variable here is how many MICAs and RC-400s France sells to Pakistan. Of course, if Islamabad buys new series of them after the first acquisition, it is conceivable that China could get its hand on them in the future, independently of the JF-17 development.

Rumors of the deaL
It is certainly no secret that France has eyed Indian and Pakistani defense markets as a great opportunity to expand its strong military-industrial sector. For years, French companies have provided weapons and systems to both Delhi and Islamabad. However, the deal regarding the JF-17 has been a difficult one, mainly for political-diplomatic reasons. This explains the lack of information from France and the extreme cautiousness in all aspects of the current arrangements.

After some leading British and US publications highlighted the danger of sensitive military technology transfer to China via Pakistan, officials from MBDA and Thales refused to comment on the deal. France's Defense Minister Herve Morin subtly conveyed the Paris position nonetheless, as he replied to Associated Press journalists that "to my knowledge, there is no arms embargo for Pakistan".

Back in September 2004, Jane's Defence Weekly's special correspondent Robert Sae-Liu reported that the choice of a multimode pulse-Doppler radar for the JF-17 fighter was reported in 2003 as "involving a competition between Phazotron of Russia with the Kopyo system, Galileo (FIAR) of Italy with the Grifo S-7, and Thales of France with the RC 400".

Hence, a short history of the JF-17 project unveils Thales' interest. The simple fact that two French companies are involved in the issue worries the US. Paris has long lobbied within the EU for lifting of the arms embargo against Beijing imposed by Europe after the 1989 Tienanmen incident.

Most French Gaullists and Socialists have pushed for a lifting of the ban. The reason is twofold. On one hand, the French defense industry is aggressively seeking expansion in Asia's markets, and China is arguably the most interesting of them. On the other hand, Paris cultivates the geopolitical ambition of creating a multipolar world in which the EU will progressively acquire strategic autonomy from the United States.

However, President Nicolas Sarkozy's election in May 2007 has started an apparently rapid and powerful rapprochement between Paris and Washington on a number of issues. Interestingly, some French analysts who deal with so-called "economic warfare" dynamics have recently criticized France's pro-China orientation. They have even lambasted civilian air industry deals with Beijing made by Airbus, reasoning that French companies that only seek market opportunities will eventually jeopardize European technological superiority over China.

Up until this year, though, Washington has successfully counter-lobbied France's efforts to persuade its EU partners about the anachronism of the embargo, and the ban is still valid despite numerous predictions of its imminent demise. Now, Sino-Pakistani military cooperation, which is likely to remain strong also in light of the growing US-Indian strategic partnership, could complicate the situation even more.

Washington furious?
While on the surface the Franco-American reconciliation is fully underway, the reality is slightly more complicated. Paris' hard, pro-US stance on Iran's nuclear issue is one thing; another matter is how France and the US perceive the international system and balance of power.

Sarkozy's position on the arms ban against Beijing will possibly become clearer after the French president visits Beijing later this year, but it is unlikely that France will completely abandon its dream of a more assertive and autonomous Europe when it comes to security and defense policy.

Quoted by the Pakistani daily Dawn on September 14, British defense analyst and Asia specialist Alexander Neill said that Washington may have a "quite vicious" reaction if France does not reconsider selling such systems to Islamabad.

However, according to various sources, France and Pakistan will likely reach an agreement on the missiles and radar. It is thus possible that China will be able to exploit yet another fault line in French and American diplomacy.

Whether or not the development of the JF-17 will allow China to acquire military systems and technology that will boost its power in relation to Taiwan, as the US fears, such a program will likely cause a dilemma for France: by proceeding with enhanced cooperation with Pakistan, Paris risks not only triggering Washington's ire, but also upsetting India and Taiwan - thereby complicating its future defense marketing with two important buyers.

Federico Bordonaro is senior analyst with the Power and Interest News Report (The Power and Interest News Report (PINR)). These views are his own.

(Copyright 2007 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
 
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merci, ca va, tere bein....ji suis Pakistani....and proud to be that.
 
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I think if pakistan goes for marlin deal rather then the U-214, it likely france will reject all the opposition regarding the technology issue. France wants to take the order of 1billion worth to french companies under any circumstances and it is also known that france is lobbying pakistan to go for the french subs, if pakistan decides too it will not be an issue for france to sell pakistan the radar for JF-17.
 
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I think if pakistan goes for marlin deal rather then the U-214, it likely france will reject all the opposition regarding the technology issue. France wants to take the order of 1billion worth to french companies under any circumstances and it is also known that france is lobbying pakistan to go for the french subs, if pakistan decides too it will not be an issue for france to sell pakistan the radar for JF-17.

i agree...actually they are more concerned with subs deal
 
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merci, ca va, tere bein....ji suis Pakistani....and proud to be that.

Its:

Merci, ca va? Tres bien....Je suis Pakistanais.

Ca va means How are you

(benefits of 2 Years A- Level French)

Back to the topic what about Phased Array radars for JF17.
 
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merci, ca va, tere bein....ji suis Pakistani....and proud to be that.

That should translate to be : "merci, ça va très bien. je suis pakistanais(e) et fier de l'être".

Okay, back to the topic.

I think there must be something not quiet right in the Wuxi radar for PAF to look at RDY3. They're supposed to be technologically fairly equal. Or is it our obsession with western tech or interoperability issues with the planned datalink, HMS and avionic upgrades planned?
 
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That should translate to be : "merci, ça va très bien. je suis pakistanais(e) et fier de l'être".

Okay, back to the topic.

I think there must be something not quiet right in the Wuxi radar for PAF to look at RDY3. They're supposed to be technologically fairly equal. Or is it our obsession with western tech or interoperability issues with the planned datalink, HMS and avionic upgrades planned?

Well Chinese equipment has improved over the last few years but I don't beleive that it is up to standard quite yet

I beleive the RBE will have he ability of being upgraded to AESA in the future hence it's potential use?
 
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Well Chinese equipment has improved over the last few years but I don't beleive that it is up to standard quite yet

I beleive the RBE will have he ability of being upgraded to AESA in the future hence it's potential use?

Sir keys i have a question here if you could probaly answer it. RC-400 that pakistan wants to have it for their JF's has a detection range of 125kms for air targets and a range of 250 kms for the sea targets? My question is if RA'AD is fitted in the JF's or for that matter mirages, how can the true potential use of its range of 350kms can be utilized since the radars are unable to detect at this range. I mean if a radar was able to detect the target let say at a range of 400+kms it made sense to fire the missle at a range of 350kms and get out of the enemies air defence. Since that is not possible because of the short range of the radar how would it be then used utilizing its full range? I hope my question is clear, i didnt know a better way of putting it then this.
 
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Sir keys i have a question here if you could probaly answer it. RC-400 that pakistan wants to have it for their JF's has a detection range of 125kms for air targets and a range of 250 kms for the sea targets? My question is if RA'AD is fitted in the JF's or for that matter mirages, how can the true potential use of its range of 350kms can be utilized since the radars are unable to detect at this range. I mean if a radar was able to detect the target let say at a range of 400+kms it made sense to fire the missle at a range of 350kms and get out of the enemies air defence. Since that is not possible because of the short range of the radar how would it be then used utilizing its full range? I hope my question is clear, i didnt know a better way of putting it then this.

Long range cruise missiles do not use radars to target. #They are either used on fixed emplacements or use a active system in the last phase of the attack.

They tend to use inertial guidance,tercom or GPS to get within a certain distance and then they use a active system to close in on the target (for use against ships for example)if required.

The advantage of the Ra'ad is that it is a fast moving launcher (the aircraft) plus the range is increased because of the fuel saving as well as the energy and altitude of the aircraft playing a part.

So in short...Other platforms/systems will designate the targets and the plane would just fire it
 
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Thanks for the info sir keys it was really messing up with my head.
 
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Some information on Meteor.

Meteor - Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile (BVRAAM)
Meteor is a new concept in air to air weapons, employing advanced air breathing motor technology and the latest electronics to deliver optimum combat performance. It will provide Eurofighter with the capability to deal with projected air to air threats throughout the life of the aircraft. Meteor will have the capability to engage multiple targets simultaneously, at greater range than current medium range air to air missiles and in all weathers, day or night. It will complement Eurofighter's Advanced Short Range Air to Air Missile (ASRAAM) capability.

Subject to agreement of a multi-national Memorandum of Understanding Meteor will be developed under a collaborative programme involving UK, Germany, Italy and Spain (the Eurofighter nations), France and possibly Sweden. Discussions have been conducted on the basis of the UK acting as the lead nation. The UK's decision in favour of Meteor opens the way for other nations to undertake their national approval processes leading to signature of a Memorandum of Understanding around the end of this year.

The Prime Contractor for Meteor is Matra BAe Dynamics (UK) Ltd leading a European consortium consisting of MBD - France; LFK (the missile company of Daimler Chrysler Aerospace) - Germany; Alenia Marconi Systems - Italy; CASA - Spain, and Saab Dynamics - Sweden (should Sweden decide to re-join the programme). Boeing are also involved with the consortium to provide marketing support in the USA and expertise on programme management. The consortium is responsible for defining work share between national industries based on technical excellence and best value for money rather than to any predetermined or directed formula.

Meteor is being developed to operate from three platforms: Eurofighter, Rafale and (assuming Swedish participation) Gripen. The missile will significantly enhance the capabilities of these aircraft and their sales potential.

The BVRAAM project is being managed by an Integrated Project Team within the Defence Procurement Agency, at the agency's headquarters at Abbey Wood, Bristol. The project incorporates key elements of the Smart Procurement Initiative, including an incentivised contract with industry, industry involvement in the DPA project team and the management of the project in partnership with industry.

Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile (BVRAAM) is intended to be the principle air-to-air weapon system for Eurofighter. The combination of Eurofighter and a missile whose range and no escape zone exceeds any other current or projected system over the next decade will ensure the enhanced capability of the RAF in any future conflict. BVRAAM is designed to provide performance, particularly kinematic performance, several times that of existing Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (MRAAMs). The increased performance will enable pilots to fully exploit the capabilities of their new aircraft and dominate long range air defence engagements in a manner that no lesser a solution can achieve.

There is no active radar guided air -to-air missile in service with the Royal Air Force. Sky Flash is a semi-active missile and requires the launch aircraft to illuminate the target throughout the time of flight of the missile, which makes it vulnerable to counter attack. Although Eurofighter will enter service with an AMRAAM capability, BVRAAM will give Eurofighter the capability to engage multiple targets simultaneously, independent of parent aircraft manoeuvre, at greater range than AMRAAM and in all weathers day or night. The UK’s Eurofighter partners (Germany, Italy and Spain) and Sweden have an interest in procuring a missile meeting these requirements and have been fully involved in the tender assessment, with representatives collocated at Abbey Wood.

Experience has shown that air superiority is the key to success in military endeavours. BVRAAM will provide the assurance that enemy aircraft operations are neutralised, thus minimising the threat to allied forces on the ground and at sea. BVRAAM will also form a key component of the UK's defence against hostile attack. The advent of highly agile next generation fighters, such as Su27 and future derivatives equipped with modern Guided Weapons, demands a missile with sufficient range and "end game" energy to chase and destroy the enemy while ensuring the safety of air crews.

A single fighter, equipped with an operational load of BVRAAM missiles, has the potential to destroy even the most maneuvrable of fighters well before they reach combat range, and simultaneously engage bombers at long range. Targets are prioritised prior to launch, and the missiles are fired towards the predicted interception points. Meanwhile target information can be updated, via the data-link, throughout the initial flight - either from the launch aircraft or from a third party such as AWACs. Tactical information on the missile can also be received by the controlling aircraft. At the appropriate time, BVRAAM’s active radar seeker autonomously searches for and locks onto the target. The missile is now fully autonomous, making its own decisions to home in on the target, despite any evasive manoeuvres, or decoys or sophisticated electronic countermeasures.

Meteor is a new concept in air to air weapons, employing advanced air breathing motor technology and state of the art electronics to provide optimum performance against increasingly complex threats.

Conventional rocket motor powered missiles rely upon an initial boost phase to achieve the high speed required followed by a 'coast' phase to intercept the target. Latest generation, highly manoeuvrable aircraft, are able to out run conventional missiles at the extremes of their range. The air breathing motor proposed for Meteor provides sustained power, following the initial boost, to chase and destroy the target. The missile's computer and the seeker, which provides the missile's ability to search, locate and lock on to a target, will build upon existing French technology, used in the Mica missile, to provide robust performance in the presence of electronic countermeasures.

Integration of this weapon with Eurofighter presents a significant management challenge in bringing together two major acquisition programme schedules. However, the common industrial partners of the Meteor and Eurofighter programmes should facilitate this and ensure that the optimum weapon system performance is achieved.

Meteor meets the essential requirements to counter the postulated future threats for the service life of the weapon. The design will provide growth potential to enable capability upgrade in the future.

The BVRAAM Invitation to Tender (ITT) was issued in 1995. Bids were received from two consortia: one led by BAe (now Matra BAe Dynamics Ltd (MBD)), offering a new system called Meteor and one led by Hughes UK Ltd (now Raytheon Systems Ltd (RSL)), offering a development of the Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile (AMRAAM) called Future Medium Range Air to Air Missile (FMRAAM). The Meteor prime contractor is MBD with partners Alenia, CASA, DASA-LFK, GEC Marconi and SAAB. The FMRAAM prime contractor is RSL with Raytheon Missile Systems, Aerospatiale, RO, Fokker and Thomson Thorn.

Raytheon offered FMRAAM (Future Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile) for the full BVRAAM requirement. Moreover, at the MoD's request for a lower cost and lower risk staged-approach to BVRAAM, Raytheon have offered ERAAM (Extended Range Air-to-Air Missile) which provides 80% of the performance of BVRAAM at 50% of the price. Raytheon has also offered an upgrade path for the AMRAAMs that the MoD will purchase to initially arm Eurofighter, called AMRAAM B+.

Meteor had been bid by Matra BAe Dynamics [MBD] to meet the UK MoD’s Staff Requirement 1239, for a Beyond Visual Range Air-To-Air Missile (BVRAAM) system. Meteor is being offered as a pan-European solution for the EF-2000 and Gripen. The Meteor team comprises Matra BAe Dynamics as the Missile Prime Contractor, with Marconi Electronic Systems taking responsibility in the guidance systems as the Seeker Prime Contractor. The active radar seeker is the brains of the missile, and is the result of Dynamics Division’s experience in high technology guidance systems. Other industrial partners are Alenia, Marconi’s Italian joint-venture partner, DASA LFK of Germany, SAAB of Sweden and CASA from Spain, making it a truly European project. As such, by sharing development and aircraft integration costs Meteor provides a reliable and cost effective solution to Europe’s requirements for BVRAAM and MRAAM (Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles). There have been a number of changes to the Meteor configuration, the most obvious being the addition of mid-mounted wings. Meteor will be fitted with a solid propellant variable flow ducted ramjet which the Meteor partners see as essential in delivering the performance characteristics necessary to meet the threat.

The initial tender assessment identified significant risks within both proposals that precluded down selection and award of a Development and Production Contract. A 12-month Project Definition and Risk Reduction phase was introduced with each bidder, at a total cost of £10 million, and contracts were placed in July 1997. Revised proposals were received in May 1998 and assessment was undertaken with contract award scheduled for late 1999.

In May 1998 Secretary of Defense, William Cohen gave assurances to British Defence Secretary, George Robertson that the US would ensure a fair international competitive environment for future fighter competitions and that the US would allow the marketing of AMRAAM-based BVRAAMs on Eurofighter to any nation approved for AMRAAM.

Revised bids were received from MBD and RSL in May 1998. During the assessment period RSL in conjunction with a collaborative offer from the US DoD submitted an alternative proposal known as ERAAM+. Best and Final Offers were received from both companies in September 1999.

On May 16, 2000, The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Geoffrey Hoon) announced that the Meteor missile offered by Matra BAE Dynamics and its consortium is likely best to meet UK needs over the life of the Eurofighter aircraft.

Eurofighter will be delivered to the Royal Air Force equipped for, but not with, AMRAAM AIM120B. Owing to the fact that METEOR will enter service after Eurofighter, it will be necessary to purchase a quantity of AMRAAM missiles from the US to provide an interim capability. Delivery of the missiles would be scheduled to align with the aircraft's transition to operational readiness. The buy of interim AMRAAMs would have been necessary whichever solution was chosen to meet the BVRAAM requirement and the estimate of total costs includes this requirement.

Meteor - Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile (BVRAAM)
 
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Would the ROSE II upgraded Mirage be able to accommodate the integration of the Meteor BVRAMM considering that they are equipped with French radars?

IMO, there are quite a few ROSE Mirages which are here to stay for a long time.
 
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The first thing is that will meteor be open for sale to pakistan, i dont think so. The reason is as there are too many nations involved in it, so selling it to pakistan which is strategic partner with china, will pull lots of strings. Besides France wants to equip this missle with the rafale so this means that it wont sell the missle without it. Its the similar case where egypt was interested in the SD-10 but pakistan refused to sell it to them until they have shown interest in the JF programe.
Meteor is the key to the success of rafale and the EF as both of these fighters face tough competition from US F-16, F-18, JSF and russian jets.
 
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Meteor is the key to the success of rafale and the EF as both of these fighters face tough competition from US F-16, F-18, JSF and russian jets.

US is also looking at meteor as their next BVRAAM. And NATO cant refuse meteor to US since NATO uses a lot of US weaponry. So once USA gets meteor, they'll be free to sell it.

Now if USA doesnt get meteor for some reason, they'll develop their own version of meteor.

The success of rafale and EF depends on

1) ToT: If they can offer ToT that the americans dont, they'll have an edge.
2) Tech: EF and Rafale are very advanced fighters, probably the best in the world after 5th gen fighters. Also they can get a lot of upgrades in the future that can make them on par with 5th gen fighters.
3) Cost: If they can probve that their higher cost = better performance than their rivals, they might get orders
4) Weaponry: Rafale and EF are compatible with all western weaponry. This means that by buying these, you can get any weapons you'll get by buying US fighters. This is where Rafale and EF score above Russian fighters.

So far rafale and EF have failed to get major orders 9aside from Saudi Arabia for EF) coz they have failed to define exactly what they offer.
 
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