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Pakistan, Saudi Arabia agree on strengthening ties

With all due respect, it is high time to realize that Islam and Muslims DO NOT need Pakistani nukes to protect and save themselves. Infact, such a belief shows how weak a person's faith is.

If wikileaks are any indication, almost all Muslim nations including Saudis , Iran, Turks and Indonesia are more concerned about terrorism emanating from Pakistan and the safe havens there rather than looking at it as a source of some sort of nuke umbrella.

Sure Sure,,,
what Islam really needs is people who consider them selves Muslims, but are subservient to pagan government.

If at all, here's an indication.
On all these threads the Indian (people who call them selves Muslims) have to come and some how try to prove their existence.
Crises of Identity I am afraid ??
 
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Sure Sure,,,
what Islam really needs is people who consider them selves Muslims, but are subservient to pagan government.

If at all, here's an indication.
On all these threads the Indian (people who call them selves Muslims) have to come and some how try to prove their existence.
Crises of Identity I am afraid ??

sir what you can expect from the children from Moulana Azad,they also suffer from same congressi mentality like him.
when their parents and fore father were not loyal to Pak how can we expect from them to be.
and one more thing
after the migration people who chose to stay back,Nation(umit) of Muhammad assalatu wasalam will no more be responsible for them.
so i request you to leave these so called muslims at their condition.
 
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Muse:

you are single handed fighting this case,
What is the secret of your enthusiasm in these senior years of your life ?

A cold glass of Jus d'orange every day? :P

But seriously, if you cannot debate or discuss with sir muse in a normal fashion, please refrain from making things personal.
 
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sir what you can expect from the children from Moulana Azad,they also suffer from same congressi mentality like him.
when their parents and fore father were not loyal to Pak how can we expect from them to be.
and one more thing
after the migration people who chose to stay back,Nation(umit) of Muhammad assalatu wasalam will no more be responsible for them.
so i request you to leave these so called muslims at their condition.

I don't think it's up to you or any other mortal to decide/judge who a Muslim is and who isn't.

And this whole dreamy scenario of Pakistan being the saviour of the Muslim countries with our nukes.

Nope, Saudi Arabia has America's military might to defend their interests, we can only look after ourselves and that's it. That's what we should be doing right now. Our own people need us.

What are we supposed to do when a muslim country gets attacked? Are we supposed to nuke the aggressor? And face possible destruction or isolation from the rest of the world?

We aren't helping in Palestine, Iraq etc. So this whole Muslim unity thing is overrated.

Live your life as a good Muslim, do as you please and be a good person, but in world politics, realities can often be harsh. And religion is then mostly used as an instrument or tool to justify or force one's will upon another.
 
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Does this mean KSA will export more Wahabi Terrorism to Pakistan?

And as some else said, all this talk of so-called Muslim Brotherhood especially coming from KSA is nonsense. South Asian Muslims are treated like trash by these "brothers" while they lick the floor on which an Amerikki walks on...

Only China has proven to be our best & closest ally!
 
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I don't think it's up to you or any other mortal to decide/judge who a Muslim is and who isn't.
you don't get me
my post was addition to the post of Salman
i am not saying that indians muslims are muslims are not.
i am saying we should not worry about them.like some people in forum sympathies with them like gujrat massacre and rights of indian muslims.
 
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@Farooq...What Wahabi Terrorism u r talking about? majority of the Saudis are Sunni Muslims..they go to masjid 5 times a day recite Quran Kareem like every other Muslim but yeah they dont worship graves like Muslims in Pakistan..and dont go to peer sahabz for blessings they directly ask the blessing from Allah as the Sunnah of our Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W)...

and now compare Saudis wid our government...they dont kill dere own citizens for America...they dont kill foreigners for America...they even dont kill each other like Pakistanis do...get ur facts straight n stop spreading rumors..Ive raised here n been living here for the last 19 years no one ve told me to do anything bad to other Muslims sects... yeah ive seen racism here n it happens becoz our Pakistani government is like that...our Ambassador aint got balls to take action for us...our Embassy shud care about us first..If they dont care why wud the Saudis do?..Saudis are not angels but they do respect Pakistanis more than other South Asian nationals
 
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@Farooq...What Wahabi Terrorism u r talking about? majority of the Saudis are Sunni Muslims..they go to masjid 5 times a day recite Quran Kareem like every other Muslim but yeah they dont worship graves like Muslims in Pakistan..and dont go to peer sahabz for blessings they directly ask the blessing from Allah as the Sunnah of our Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W)...

and now compare Saudis wid our government...they dont kill dere own citizens for America...they dont kill foreigners for America...they even dont kill each other like Pakistanis do...get ur facts straight n stop spreading rumors..Ive raised here n been living here for the last 19 years no one ve told me to do anything bad to other Muslims sects... yeah ive seen racism here n it happens becoz our Pakistani government is like that...our Ambassador aint got balls to take action for us...our Embassy shud care about us first..If they dont care why wud the Saudis do?..Saudis are not angels but they do respect Pakistanis more than other South Asian nationals

Assalam alaikum

Very well said brother MashaAllah ( Allah aap ki umar daraz karain ameen ).

TARIQ
 
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A cold glass of Jus d'orange every day? :P

But seriously, if you cannot debate or discuss with sir muse in a normal fashion, please refrain from making things personal.

Assalam alaikum

Muse never debate he just raises questions and dont answer and when somebody answers him he picks only part of the statement. See above he told somebody of reference and when the other guy asked for his help he refused. I raised a question on his analysis if saudies r keen to break pakistan how is it they rely on us to defend and protect them?. Sir muse ran away from the answer as usual.

Regarding ur post no. 64

Nobody is saying if any muslim country is attacked use the nuclear option but atleast when a muslim country is attacked just not help the attackers ( like we did in afghanistan )

I remember after the earthquake ppl of pakistan were asking where r our muslim brothers and saudia contributed thanks to them. when we had floods they did it again. the level of muslim unity is not as good but still we feel for the muslims if they r faced with disasters.

During salah u Aldeen there were many saleh ( NAIK ) ppl but nobody knows about them, he is in heart of all muslim i wonder u wanna be or like us to behave like him or not ( or u r one of those who hate him ).

TARIQ
 
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There are basically two themes that seem to be animating Pakistani thinkers about relations with Arabia -- I choose to use the word Arabia because it makes it seem that we are dealing with a country and the prefix "Saudi" makes it seem that it's not a country but the possession of a tyrannical family (even though that is what it is)

These ideas are :

1. That the relationship is one based on security concerns - Pakistan must offer Arabia and by extension the Wahabi princes, a security cover, not only to protect the possession of the Wahabi princes but to maintain order in the international markets. Most of our readers have not taken into account the implications of offering the Arbi, Pakistani armaments -- if the Arbi takes this offer whole, it will require the Arbi to make a strategic shift, in my opinion this is something that the Wahabi princes and their American masters will not allow.

2. The second concern for Pakistani thinkers is the other side of the coin, namely, given that the relationship with Arabia, has produced for Pakistan, among other things, Sectarianism, terrorism, social schism and ruinous relations with our dear brother, Iran, they ask whether it is worth having strategic relations with Arabia and suggest that if it is then these relations must change in substance. These thinkers are most concerned about conscience, about the state claiming the content and direction of the conscience of Muslims - In Arabia, this has already been done, and to some extent it is happening in Pakistan - Should Pakistan strive to be what it was envisioned as, a country of Free Muslims or a country where the state tell us what the content and direction of our conscience is to be in accordance with policies of the state. Again this raises even more fundamental questions, whereas the religious tyranny in Arabia claims "Duties and Obligations and adjudication of Sin, the Islamic Republic that is Pakistan, must be concerned with "Rights, Responsibilities, and the adjudication of Crimes - how Pakistan negotiates these issues will decide whether we are Free Muslims and Citizens or Subjects of a political religion based tyranny - ultimately, of course we seek Justice and Dignity as foundations of Liberty and therefore, of conscience :



Outsourcing conscience
Rafia Zakaria
(17 hours ago) Today

PASSED in 1981, the Ehteram-i-Ramazan Ordinance bans public eating and drinking, making it far harder for Pakistani Muslims to evade the religious duty of fasting during the month.

Undoubtedly, fasting is a trying task in the long, hot and powerless hours of summer; still, from the state’s point of view, some like the 25 arrested in Faisalabad need a push in the right direction. For those not conquered into compliance by the fear of punishment in the hereafter, the possibility of arrest and six months in jail in the here and now can save from temptation and deliver from sin.

Further assistance in matters of the conscience has been provided by the Federal Shariat Court which deemed the punishment of 40 lashes for the consumption of alcohol un-Islamic. According to the decision, there was no support in either the Holy Quran or Sunnah for the hadd punishment of 40 lashes for those found consuming alcohol. The law, the court declared, must be amended and a more lenient 40 sticks, instead of lashes, could be applied instead.

These prescriptions would seem onerous to proponents of the individual conscience and moral management who would like the state to stop assisting struggling believers seeking guidance from the government in matters of faith. But in Pakistan, the concept of choice, whether it involves conscience or convention, has never enjoyed much popularity.

If you’re poor, you can choose between slogging it out as a construction worker or a rickshaw driver; if middle-class, you can opt to either slaving at a chaotic hospital or in a stuffy cubicle, marry the slightly fat cousin or the too-talkative one, live in the house with the leaky roof or the one with the crumbling stairs. Choosing between these options requires the careful evaluation of competing miseries, a task in which Pakistanis have expertise.

Given these sordid encounters with choice, it is little wonder that in matters of the conscience, outsourcing is the desire of many Pakistanis.

If choices are so limited and meaningless in matters of life, why insist on retaining them in matters of moral or religious conscience? Enter, the state, whose thoughtfully added obstacles — the danger of arrest if you scarf down a sandwich in Ramazan, or the prospect of being stoned to death if you run away with your neighbour’s wife — can make moral selection so much simpler.

If the government of a poor country cannot deliver much in this world, it should at least promise something in the hereafter; for if all that is immoral is illegal and you break no law, you become morally perfect.

Taken from the Saudis, this idea of outsourcing the conscience to the state is quite tempting for exhausted populations tired of making independent moral decisions. But, like so many other good ideas, the export of moral management to foreign lands runs into the problem of being not quite indigenous or suitable for local climes.

When the Saudis mandated the Holy Quran and Sunnah as their constitution, and charged state-appointed clerics to decide what could and could not be done, and sent around helpful bands of vice squads to thwart even determined sinners, they were pursuing quite the opposite of what plagues Pakistan.

Faced with the heavy burden of sudden largesse piping up unstoppable streams of wealth from the midst of their sandy homeland, the Saudis like most of the wealthy were beset not by our very Pakistani paltriness of limited options but the hedonistic potential of too much choice. Theirs were not the burden of choosing between equally dismal options but the fears engendered by suddenly being able to buy both the mansion in France and the villa in Italy, of marrying the cousin and the Ukrainian actress.

They outsourced individual conscience to the Saudi state not because of their frustrations at the limits of their choices or inescapable circumstances, but because as the blessed peddlers of the world’s oil they had no limits.

Hence the problem of importing a system conjured up by rich Saudis to a poor country like Pakistan where choice means little. The unsurprising result: moral guarantees provided by a poor government to save the souls of a poor populace are just as shaky and erratic and piecemeal as the promises to provide food, security or electricity.

You may get some help with fasting with one act passed by parliament, but not much on the issue of, say, money laundering or trash disposal. Oblivious, you could go around doing all sorts of immoral things because they are not yet illegal, because there is yet no law to prohibit them and thus land yourself in hell for the mistake of followed mismanaged or unmarked routes to paradise. Morals like titles to property and applications for identity cards can get lost in the government bureaucracy.

The Saudis have faced the opposite problem. So thorough has been their government’s management of morals that the individual conscience has become obsolete and cannot be counted on for moral calculations that go beyond technically following the law.

One indication has been a recent report aired on French channel France24 about the proliferation of sex tourism in certain Muslim countries. Enacted between Muslims are short-term ‘marriages’ considered legal under Saudi law. Any person with a working conscience could tell you that such technical shortcuts around the idea of marriage are not moral. Unfortunately, a number of Saudis, unwitting casualties of the outsourced conscience, are no longer able to make such independent deductions

The Saudi experience suggests that the project of outsourcing conscience suffers from problematic glitches causing either the inadvertent death of individual conscience or the government mismanagement of morals. Neither scenario can be tolerated by believers searching for a solid, certain route to salvation on which there is simply no room for mistakes.


The writer is an attorney teaching political philosophy and constitutional law.
rafia.zakaria@gmail.com
 
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sir what you can expect from the children from Moulana Azad,they also suffer from same congressi mentality like him.
when their parents and fore father were not loyal to Pak how can we expect from them to be.
and one more thing
after the migration people who chose to stay back,Nation(umit) of Muhammad assalatu wasalam will no more be responsible for them.
so i request you to leave these so called muslims at their condition.

Please go ahead and check the history. Was Quaid-e-Azam able to convince her daughter to come to Pak from India?

Read that and come up with some logic.
 
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Please go ahead and check the history. Was Quaid-e-Azam able to convince her daughter to come to Pak from India?

Read that and come up with some logic.

Let me show you some history.
Noah's son never joined him, and was ultimately destroyed.
Lut's wive did not join him and was ultimately destroyed.

Umar's son sinned, and got the punishment, even after he died he got full punishment.

Jinnah, was way shorter than these people.

People of Hindustan WERE given a choice, of Land in the name of Islam, OR a Pagan country

They made their choice.

Enough history ?
 
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Below is another perspective, an alarmist view to be sure, but the scope of the piece is broad and I think one that we may consider:



Pakistan marches to Saudi tune
By Brian M Downing

Ties between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are long-standing but for the most part have not stood out in the turbulent affairs of the region. However, increased tensions with Iran, the Arab Spring, and growing disenchantment with the United States are making the relationship more expansive, more prominent, and more dangerous.

The Saudis are supporting the Pakistani army's militant client-groups, hiring its soldiers, and seeking to benefit from the country's nuclear weaponry. This is bringing increased tensions with both Iran and the US - no mean feat today given their adversarial positions.

Madrassas and elites

Saudi Arabia, as is well known, has been funding religious schools, (madrassas), in Pakistan since at least the 1980s, when they were veritable boot camps indoctrinating young men to take up the fight against the Russians in Afghanistan. Support continued after the Russians left in 1989, and today the madrassas are the only schooling available to most Pakistani boys.

Saudi funding has little influence on the content of the schooling. That is shaped by the indigenous Deobandi movement, which parallels the Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia, especially in austerity, militancy, hatred for Shi'ism, and hostility to the West. The Saudis do not seek to win converts; they seek to win allies - the generals and the Deobandi faithful.

Pakistani generals find the faithful to be more enthusiastic participants in militant groups than less pious and increasingly secular Pakistanis. It is the pious who fervently support the insurgency in India-administered Kashmir and the suppression of Shi'ite and Christian groups at home. Sunni zeal, both countries realize, can be channeled into useful directions.

The struggle with Iran


Strains between Saudi Arabia and Iran were held in check while the shah was in power, as each figured in the US's "dual pillars" program for Gulf security. Neither was a major military power, but both were ambitious arms purchasers. With the accession of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and his calls for Islamist revolution under Iran's aegis, the two states became bitter rivals.

The Saudi fear of Iran is a veritable obsession. They see Iran as a rising power determined to dominate the Gulf area and establish a "Shi'ite Crescent" stretching into Syria and Lebanon. The Saudis are determined to prevent this by confronting Iran wherever possible, including in Afghanistan where Iran is tied to northern, non-Pashtun peoples.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan collaborated with the US to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (1979), but their interests diverged from those of the US after the Soviet withdrawal (1989). In the chaotic aftermath, Pakistan turned more directly to its Indian foe, and Saudi Arabia to its Iranian foe. Both foes had appreciable influence in the government then in Kabul.

Pakistani intelligence (Inter-Services Intelligence - ISI) and Saudi counterparts supported a coup led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar - a ruthless Pashtun warlord who fought his mujahideen rivals as much as he fought the Russians. The coup failed, in part due to US opposition, but Hekmatyar remained available for other intrigues.

Saudi Arabia surreptitiously supports Pakistan in its surreptitious support of Afghan insurgents, though both efforts are becoming increasingly apparent. Various insurgent groups - the Taliban, Hizb-i-Islami (Hekmatyar), and the Haqqanis - are fighting Western forces, but are being groomed for continued service against other countries, including Iran.

Pakistan does not share Saudi Arabia's overt hostility to Iran, but its cooperation with Riyadh may lead to increased hostility from Iran. This will be especially so if ISI and Saudi counterparts continue backing the Jundullah - a Baloch separatist group responsible for terrorist bombings in southeastern Iran.

Growing distance from the US

Pakistan was irked when the US abandoned Afghanistan after the Soviet Union left. The sanctions imposed by the US when Pakistan developed nuclear weapons were resented as an affront to an ally since the early days of the Cold War. The US intermittently sees the need for democracy in the land, and much to the Pakistani generals' irritation the US is now in one of those intermittent periods.

Saudi-US relations are reaching new lows. Riyadh was keenly disappointed four years ago when Washington backed away from military threats against Iran's nuclear program and refused to aid Israel's preparations for a pre-emptive strike. Saudi Arabia sees Iran as an imminent danger; the US is daunted by Iran's ability to retaliate in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Gulf.

The Saudis are gravely alarmed over the Arab Spring and outraged that the US pressed for president Hosni Mubarak of Egypt to step down. Saudi Arabia has embarked on a program of supporting authoritarian rule in Syria, Yemen, and most notably Bahrain, where Saudi troops brutally suppressed calls for reform.


The Saudis see autocracy as an appropriate and religiously sanctioned form of government and one essential to their security. The US has intermittently seen autocracy as unjust but now sees it as an outmoded and doddering institution foredoomed to fall throughout the region.

The Saudis warned the US not to oust Saddam as it would bring to power a Shi'ite majority beholden to Iran. Iraq's new army, now rid of its Sunni commanders, will be predominantly Shi'ite and allied with Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps - a partnership that goes back to the insurgency against the US and even to the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s.

Indeed, the Saudis fear that Iran is directing a Shi'ite resurgence across the region and will soon brandish nuclear weapons. Exasperated with the US, Saudi Arabia is building ties with Sunni states and peoples - increasingly by hiring their soldiers.

Saudi-Pakistani security cooperation


Pakistan, though overwhelmingly Sunni, has millions of Shi'ites. Pakistan does not offer a precise percentage but Western intelligence estimates say 20%, or about 34 million people.

Pakistan's lack of candor on its Shi'ite population betokens official concern that the Shi'ites are disloyal and look to the Iranian ayatollahs - a concern that after the Iranian revolution of 1979 led to the ISI's organization, in conjunction with the Deobandis, the Sipah-i-Sahaba militant group charged with intimidating the country's Shi'ites (and the occasional Christian as well).

Life for most Saudi men has entailed a good deal of leisure and privilege - the result of oil wealth flowing into the kingdom. Almost effortless prosperity has left Saudi boys with outlooks inconducive to military discipline and incompatible with the extreme rigors that extended combat imposes.

It is not for nothing that the hardscrabble fields of Sparta and Prussia brought forth powerful armies, or that the soldiers from the tough lands of North Vietnam prevailed over those from the more prosperous South, or that US combat troops today come far more from working-class backgrounds than from affluent ones.

The Saudis recognize this and saw it in their less-than-remarkable performance in the First Gulf War of 1991 and before that in the inability to retake Mecca after the 1979 uprising. There are concerns that tribal discontent might spread into the national guard, which comprises numerous tribal militias the likes of which (the Ikhwan) rose against Abdul Aziz - a distant event but one with lasting concerns.

Military service has been part of the lives of young men in the Pakistani Punjab at least since the British East India Company set up indigenous forces 200 years ago. It was Punjabi soldiers who later became the backbone of the British imperial army and who served Britain in both world wars. Soldiering for foreign powers, then, is an honored tradition there.

Saudi-funded madrassas are no longer chiefly found in Pashtun regions in the northwest. They have proliferated in the Punjab in recent years and are becoming boot camps indoctrinating young men to take up the fight against Shi'ism and other enemies of Saudi autocracy.

Pakistan has for decades now had thousands of ground troops and mercenary veterans positioned in Saudi Arabia, serving both internal and external security roles. Saudi rulers, like many autocrats before them, retain foreign troops to perform the untidy task of repressing their own people.
The Bourbons had the Swiss, Chinese rulers had the Mongols to deal with internal unrest. Pakistani soldiers in recent weeks are thought to have helped crush Shi'ite demonstrations in nearby Bahrain and perhaps quelled them in the Saudi Eastern Province as well.

The Saudis have also recruited veterans of Saddam's disbanded army. They are Sunni and despise the Shi'ites - the people who took power in Iraq and whom they see as in league with "Persia". This is a resonant and useful outlook to the Saudis. Bolstered by Pakistani and Iraqi formations, Saudi Arabia will stand against the Shi'ite bloc.

The legion of foreigners will also aid in preventing or settling the numerous border skirmishes that occur on the Arabian Peninsula. They may one day fight the Houthi insurgents in Yemen, who, with little evidence, are thought to be working with Iran. Pakistani pilots are thought to have already attacked Yemeni positions in previous conflicts.

The Arab Spring is as alarming in Saudi Arabia as it is welcome in most of the rest of the world. Growing demands for representative government along its periphery pose security threats, as though Arab youths are latter-day Jacobins eager to spread their revolutionary creed. Only in Libya do the Saudis support change as Muammar Gaddafi plotted to assassinate the Saudi monarch back in 2004.

Saudi Arabia has plans involving Pakistan's nuclear abilities, which it has likely funded for decades, and Pakistan is rapidly increasing its nuclear arsenal. The Saudis seek a reliable retaliatory force in the event Iran launches an overwhelming ground invasion, or initiates a missile war on cities and oil sites, or one day uses its own nuclear weapons in the region.

Some reports assert that Pakistan may deploy nuclear weapons onto Saudi bases if they have not already. This is at present unlikely, but a country with great wealth could someday contract for such an arrangement from a deeply impoverished nation, or perhaps arrange for an outright purchase.

Alternately, Saudi Arabia could purchase the expertise in physics and engineering, which it presently lacks, and embark on its own nuclear program - an undertaking the US would never help with. One could see a nuclear and conventional consortium of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and China come into being - a new entente stretching from East Asia to the Persian Gulf.

Problems and Instabilities

Expanded Saudi relations with Pakistan will bring definite reactions, perhaps most obviously with the US. Saudi support for Deobandi militancy has been long known, but its dovetailing with Pakistani support for the Taliban is becoming increasingly obvious and deeply irritating.

Hopes for a competent and respected civilian government may be on the wane as the Pakistani army and state align themselves more closely with Saudi Arabia - and China as well. These emerging partners care nothing for democracy and look mainly for stability. The opinions of Washington are of decreasing interest in Riyadh, Islamabad, and Pakistan's military capital, Rawalpindi.

In regard to Afghanistan, the ascent of Deobandi/Wahhabi militancy is increasingly worrisome to non-Pashtun peoples who have had to endure the hard hand of Taliban administration and justice, adding to Washington's woes in stabilizing the country.

The Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazarras, and others are alarmed by Pakistani and Saudi influence in the Taliban, and by peace negotiations influenced by them that could well lead to another round of war with the Taliban. The non-Pashtun are seeking diplomatic support, coalescing their old militias, and bracing for the worst. In recent weeks, key non-Pashtun officials have been assassinated, and, in the north, blame is attached to ISI.

Iran finds fault with events in Afghanistan as well. Iran has long supported northern peoples against the Taliban, who killed Shi'ite Hazarras in the thousands. Iran backed the Northern Alliance long after the US quit the game, helped drive out the Taliban in 2001, and will not allow them to return to power, especially now that their Saudi ties are strengthening.

Iran is increasingly angered by the presence of Pakistani troops and mercenaries in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Gulf. Former Pakistani soldiers helped Saudi and Bahraini security forces put down Shi'ite demonstrators in Pearl Square, and recently Iran upbraided a Pakistani diplomat on this.

Saudi-Pakistani support for Baloch militants inside Iran such as the Jundullah could well backfire. The Baloch people straddle the Iranian-Pakistani border and those residing in western Pakistan are fighting for independence from Islamabad - perhaps with the help of India. They are far more likely to succeed than their brethren in Iran. And of course Iran's Revolutionary Guards could help the cause.

Saudi Arabia will be inserting itself further into the old rivalry between Pakistan and India, with China already very much on the Pakistani side
. The Saudis can almost certainly remain aloof from overt involvement in any fighting that might break out, as they have little to offer militarily.

The Saudis and Chinese will, however, become increasingly associated with the network of terrorist groups that ISI has long cultivated. In time, however, they may be able to prevail upon ISI to break with these groups - an end that US policy has pursued for a decade or more now with nothing to show. But having bred and trained the many terrorist groups, on breaking with them, Pakistan might well face their concerted and lethal wrath.

Pakistan feels it can skillfully juggle Iran and Saudi Arabia without falling out with either, much as it is juggling the US and China. But the latter act is failing badly and Pakistan could see Iran turning on it, perhaps by threatening the pipeline running into Pakistan. The last thing Pakistani generals want is to be opposed by Iran in the west and by India in the east, but their stewardship over national security has been marked by failure, defeat, and loss of territory.

Saudi Arabia could find itself in the position, alongside China, of propping up a failing state, one wracked by separatist movements, political instability, growing recognition as a sponsor of terrorism, and a looming demographic catastrophe from 50% of its people being under the age of 22. The US may wish to be rid of Pakistan as one might wish to be rid of a profligate, untrustworthy, and self-destructive colleague.

The Saudis might also note that many autocrats who relied on mercenaries for internal and external security have found them acting on their own and enmeshed in political intrigues. This may be all the more worrisome as the country is facing a momentous succession period as the dwindling number of the founding king's sons give way to the hundreds of ambitious grandsons.

There can be little doubt that Pakistani soldiers on the Arabian peninsula retain contact with ISI. Nor is there doubt that ISI has fond but improbable hopes of playing a larger role in Saudi Arabia than just supplying a few sepoy regiments.


Brian M Downing is a political/military analyst and author of The Military Revolution and Political Change and The Paths of Glory: War and Social Change in America from the Great War to Vietnam. He can be reached at brianmdowning@gmail.com.
 
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@Farooq...What Wahabi Terrorism u r talking about? majority of the Saudis are Sunni Muslims..they go to masjid 5 times a day recite Quran Kareem like every other Muslim but yeah they dont worship graves like Muslims in Pakistan..and dont go to peer sahabz for blessings they directly ask the blessing from Allah as the Sunnah of our Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W)...

and now compare Saudis wid our government...they dont kill dere own citizens for America...they dont kill foreigners for America...they even dont kill each other like Pakistanis do...get ur facts straight n stop spreading rumors..Ive raised here n been living here for the last 19 years no one ve told me to do anything bad to other Muslims sects... yeah ive seen racism here n it happens becoz our Pakistani government is like that...our Ambassador aint got balls to take action for us...our Embassy shud care about us first..If they dont care why wud the Saudis do?..Saudis are not angels but they do respect Pakistanis more than other South Asian nationals

You can call yourself whatever you want, be it Sunni, even though you aren't, but you cannot fool everyone, so please spare me from your Najdi Al-Wahabiyah fairy tales of people worshiping graves.

The topic at hand is Pakistan strengthening ties with the Najdi government of Yahood Saud.

Clearly your favorable opinion of Saudis is biased as you share the same deviant ideology, so having lived there for 19 years makes no difference. Aside from countless people on this forum, I personally know people of Indian & Pakistani (ALL MUSLIMS) descent who have faced racism and bigotry at the hands of your Saudi friends.

As far as American support, your Najdi friends asked for help from a ghair Allah during the Gulf War against Saddam... Please learn & comprehend your history before going off on your diatribe. Thank you.
 
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Let me show you some history.
Noah's son never joined him, and was ultimately destroyed.
Lut's wive did not join him and was ultimately destroyed.

Umar's son sinned, and got the punishment, even after he died he got full punishment.

Jinnah, was way shorter than these people.

People of Hindustan WERE given a choice, of Land in the name of Islam, OR a Pagan country

They made their choice.

Enough history ?

Did you even try to understand the context on which reply has been given or suddenly you started blabbering? Go read Mr Nomi's post come back.

Muslims were given choice and thank god mostly chose to be Indian and saved themselves from being part of failed nation or terrorist nation.
 
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