Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

[Xeric]

So Agno, are we still going to run in circles while you are around?

 

[VCheng]

How ingenious of the Air Marshal. In essence he is saying "Only the idiots are criticizing what the armed forces are doing led on by the media." I would submit that it is NOT as simple as that to dismiss the mental capacity of a whole nation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Please do not get upset at me for sounding depressed, the time is already PAST. Look at the gathering storm clouds all around. This system MUST change for Pakistan to realize its potential. Otherwise:


"Tarreekh key aiwaanon mein aisa bhi hota he
Lamhon ney ghalati ki, sadiyon ney saza pai"

I would say that the military HAS to become involved in the electoral process, either through pressuring the PPP to accept the Election Commission reforms to make it a neutral and more powerful body, and helping enforce law and order to make the next elections successful, or intervening in the electoral process to try and make it as fair as possible, as it did in the last elections. I would much rather prefer the military to stay out of the election process, but that will only happen if the PPP and PML-N agree on EC reforms and the need to hold free, fair and transparent elections for the sake of 'democracy and parliamentary supremacy'.

An election that is not widely seen as 'free and fair' will, IMO, be disastrous, and it is 'democracy' that will end up being the biggest loser, and possible the religious groups the biggest winners, if the Army continues to stay out of politics. And I do not think the religious groups are going to wait for another 5 years for the next government to complete its term before acting, through street power, to take control.

Will the Army come to the aid of a deeply unpopular GoP widely perceived as 'illegitimate and corrupt', and in the process take on a political force channeling rhetoric of 'faith' and system based on a Utopian vision of 'faith, justice, equality and prosperity ala the first four Caliphs of Islam'?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The point is that it will take many decades to rectify the past blunders committed by various military dictators. All the Makhdooms and Chodhries may not be the creation of the generals but the dictators never hesitated to form a political party comprised of the most corrupt Makhdooms and Chodhries as long as it fulfils the purpose of its creation. I don't see any other solution but an uninterrupted civilian rule that may bring some positive changes. Just keep faith in democracy and say to hail with dictators. I also detest Zardaris and Sharifs but I have also faith in democracy.

As I have pointed out several times now, I do not disagree with you - both the Civilian and military leadership have caused significant damage to Pakistan in the past - but the 'past is past'.

The issue before us TODAY is not with the military leadership, but with the civilian leadership. The military leadership has changed and will continue to change - the pressure, from civil society, the media, and electorate needs to be applied on the civilian political class, for an end to dynastic politics and politicization of State institutions and undermining the judiciary's powers, neutrality and independence.

The demands made of the Army should be confined to 'hands off domestic politics', and criticism of the Army should be confined to its efforts to meddle in domestic politics and of its actual policies and actions in the COIN and Military spheres.

If we want change in Pakistan, then we need to divert the majority of our focus onto the civilian leadership and political class - by continuing to raise the 'bogeyman of the Army', as so many liberal commentators do, the civilian leadership is getting a 'pass' and is able to deflect attention away from its own failings.

 

[VCheng]

I would say that the military HAS to become involved in the electoral process, either through pressuring the PPP to accept the Election Commission reforms to make it a neutral and more powerful body, and helping enforce law and order to make the next elections successful, or intervening in the electoral process to try and make it as fair as possible, as it did in the last elections. I would much rather prefer the military to stay out of the election process, but that will only happen if the PPP and PML-N agree on EC reforms and the need to hold free, fair and transparent elections for the sake of 'democracy and parliamentary supremacy'.

An election that is not widely seen as 'free and fair' will, IMO, be disastrous, and it is 'democracy' that will end up being the biggest loser, and possible the religious groups the biggest winners, if the Army continues to stay out of politics. And I do not think the religious groups are going to wait for another 5 years for the next government to complete its term before acting, through street power, to take control.

Will the Army come to the aid of a deeply unpopular GoP widely perceived as 'illegitimate and corrupt', and in the process take on a political force channeling rhetoric of 'faith' and system based on a Utopian vision of 'faith, justice, equality and prosperity ala the first four Caliphs of Islam'?

I agree with you that the best service to the nation is for the Army to ensure a free and fair election, by using whatever overt and covert means at its disposal. This needs to be organized and executed on a war footing I think.

I have absolutely no hope of anything good to come from the present crop of looters and thugs of all persuasions that pass for politicians, frankly. I have openly criticized the Army many a time, but as I re-evaluate developments, I have to admit that something has to be forced, and I do so honestly. I am sure that there are enough motivated patriots left, both in and out of uniform, to make this happen. I may not see how yet, but please take that as a deficiency on my part, and not a criticism at this point.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Army shouldnt have to be the principal here, fathering these inept politicians....

that isnt in their job description


the civilians need to get their act together fast, and the people need to value the power of their vote --and vote for the proper people to lead

 

[53fd]

I hope this does not sound repetitive, but like every other country, the Pakistani civilian institutions form & 'formulate' Pakistani society, whereas the Army simply recruits from it. That pretty much shows where the majority of the fault lies inside Pakistan, although the Army is at fault as well.

 

[blufmaster]

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Army shouldnt have to be the principal here, fathering these inept politicians....

that isnt in their job description


the civilians need to get their act together fast, and the people need to value the power of their vote --and vote for the proper people to lead

The Army could assist, in conjunction with the media and political actors that understand the need for free, fair and transparent elections, in building up sentiment for reform in the Election Commission.

I don't think it should be get involved any more than that - military coups would simply given the current lot of corrupt bastards one more excuse to whine against 'dictatorship' and blame the military for their inability to do anything in five years of running the government.

The military should make clear, in the event of no reforms in the electoral process, that it is standing aside and doing nothing to assist any party, because that is not its mandate. Let the politicians take responsibility for their actions. The military has to retain its high approval ratings and image, if it is to have any chance of stepping in to prevent a forcible takeover by religious extremists.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

No the likes of Asma Jahangir and people like that would take strong exception.

Army could only play a ''peace-keeping'' and ''vigilant'' role --to ensure ballot boxes are not burned.

Hell --- get the UN involved, i could care less, as long as the process is fair and undisturbed.

 

[Porus]

Sigh! This is the culmination of despair that people are expecting from the army to ensure free and fair elections in Pakistan. The same army that has mastered the art of election rigging and manipulation and has quite successfully used this prowess many times in the past.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Sigh! This is the culmination of despair that people are expecting from the army to ensure free and fair elections in Pakistan. The same army that has mastered the art of election rigging and manipulation and has used this prowess many times in the past.

you might be confused....it is damned civilian leaders who mastered that art

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sigh! This is the culmination of despair that people are expecting from the army to ensure free and fair elections in Pakistan. The same army that has mastered the art of election rigging and manipulation and has quite successfully used this prowess many times in the past.

First of all, it is not the 'same Army', and it wasn't the 'Army' that rigged elections, it was the 'Army leadership' at that time that chose to interfere in domestic politics. That leadership does not exist anymore, and the current COAS did in fact assist in conducting one of Pakistan's most free and fair elections in its history, a fact widely acknowledged by political commentators from all sides of the spectrum.

Second, as both AZ and I have argued, we would prefer that the Army not become involved at all. A blueprint for reforming the Election Commission (as well as NAB) was agreed upon by the PPP, PML-N and some other parties before the last elections. That blueprint needs to be implemented as soon as possible for the Election Commission to start preparing for the next polls and to build up confidence in them. Let us know when the civilian political leadership chooses to act as mature adults and do so.

 

[VCheng]

......................

Hell --- get the UN involved, i could care less, as long as the process is fair and undisturbed.

AZ: Heck no! That would open the flood gates of the barrage named "Failed State!". The solution has to be created internally at all costs if Pakistan is to once again hold its head high.

 

[Porus]

First of all, it is not the 'same Army', and it wasn't the 'Army' that rigged elections, it was the 'Army leadership' at that time that chose to interfere in domestic politics. That leadership does not exist anymore, and the current COAS did in fact assist in conducting one of Pakistan's most free and fair elections in its history, a fact widely acknowledged by political commentators from all sides of the spectrum.

Second, as both AZ and I have argued, we would prefer that the Army not become involved at all. A blueprint for reforming the Election Commission (as well as NAB) was agreed upon by the PPP, PML-N and some other parties before the last elections. That blueprint needs to be implemented as soon as possible for the Election Commission to start preparing for the next polls and to build up confidence in them. Let us know when the civilian political leadership chooses to act as mature adults and do so.

Yes, I have heard it umpteen times today that this is not the same army. The generals always took a few years rest before indulging into another adventure - I would rather wait and let the time judge whether this is a changed army or not.

Just a minor correction, Kiyani didn't assist in conducting free and fair elections - he just stopped his men from rigging another elections. A huge difference if people bother to see it from this perspective.