Pakistans Geopolitical Dilema China Or US
- Thread starter Tinu
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Says a guy on internet!!! Give him the Stoopid award!
See this is what I enjoy, these serious intellectual musings!
DESERT FIGHTER
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Met ur countrymen in dubai n ivory coast.....infact had a indian female frnd for a while.... during my stay in ivory coast.
And I have met several Pakistanis in US. Never felt the awe and terror. Damn, must be one of the weak ones! But hey, it's internet. Nothing proves you lion like by calling some else "internet lion" on internet!
pmukherjee
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Mr Tinu
The centers of Indian power lie well within India and not in the US, take my word for it. Yes, Indo US relations have improved in the last few years because the Americans found that they can not ignore India any longer. It is they who came to us for trade, investment, employment and so on. As far as we are concerned, a whole range of high tech weapons systems were made available to us which had been denied for decades.
I know, it is a favorite past time for you guys and if you lie enough times, you will soon start believing your own lies. Just ask yourself, where do the entire elite class of Pakistan have their second home? The answer will be either USA or its proxy UK. Where is Musharraf hiding away? UK. Where are the children of your President and Prime Minister? UK. Need we say any more?
Why do you guys keep harping on that one UNSC vote against Iran? Did not China too vote against Iran on that ocassion? China is an enemy of Iran, no? Of course you have demonstrated the power of your eternal Muslim brotherhood with Iran by sending fighters to Bahrain to kill the Shias there, no?
How many Americans do you see in India? Heck, your country is crawling with Chinese and Americans. You even gift to the Chinese your land in Gwadar just to pay for the privilege of being their proxy. Just tell me how the Americans bomb the hell out of your tribal areas with their drones? Tell me why American spies run around killing Pakistanis. Tell me how you let the American spy get away after killing Pakistanis in broad daylight? Don't they show that you are America's stooge as well as China's? Why blame us? You are doing a good job of extracting the goodies from both your masters.
Regards.
Mr. P Mukherjee Sir, You need to read this, written by one of your own and then comment on others. I am posting this in full so that nothing is missed. We all have our problems but honestly Sir, I read Indian blogs and discussion forums etc and found nothing but hatred for Pakistan and have seen this over a long period. Dont expect that while you hate me, I will offer my other cheek. Thank you Sir.
The deception at the heart of ‘Rising India'
Pankaj Mishra
Share · print · T+
Food prices become intolerable for the poor. Protests against corruption paralyse Parliament. Then a series of American diplomatic cables released by the WikiLeaks exposes a brazenly mendacious and venal ruling class; the head of government adored by foreign business people and journalists loses his moral authority, turning into a lame duck.
This sounds like Tunisia or Egypt, countries long deprived of representative politics and pillaged by the local agents of neoliberal capitalism. But it is India, where in recent days WikiLeaks has highlighted how democratic institutions are no defence against the rapacity and selfishness of globalised elites.
Most of the cables — being published by The Hindu, the country's most respected newspaper in English — offer nothing new to those who haven't drunk the “Rising India” Kool-Aid vended by business people, politicians and their journalist groupies. The evidence of economic liberalisation providing cover for a wholesale plunder of the country's resources has been mounting over recent months. The loss in particular of a staggering $39 billion in the government's sale of the telecom spectrum has alerted many Indians to the corrupt nexuses between corporate and political power.
Even the western financial press, unwaveringly gung-ho about the money to be made in India, is getting restless. Early this year, the Economist asked: “Is Indian capitalism becoming oligarchic?” — a question to which the only correct response is “Hell-ooo”. In the Financial Times, Indian business dynasties have been described as “robber barons”.
The intimate details about politicians revealed by the WikiLeaks still leave you speechless. What can one say about the former Cabinet Minister, a fervent spokesman for low-caste Hindus, who demanded a large bribe from Dow Chemical Company, which is being helped by senior American officials to overcome its association with the gas leak at the Union Carbide factory in Bhopal that in 1984 killed and maimed tens of thousands of Indians? Indeed, the cables reveal U.S. business and officials to be as embedded in India's politics as they are in Pakistan's. In 2008, the aide to an old courtier of the Nehru-Gandhi family showed a U.S. diplomat two chests containing $25 million in cash — money to bribe members of Parliament into voting for an India-US nuclear deal, itself a prelude to massive U.S. arms sales to India. Publicly opposed to the nuclear deal, the leaders of the Hindu nationalist BJP are at pains to reassure American diplomats of their pro-U.S. credentials, even dissing their murderous Hindu nationalism as opportunistic, a mere “talking point”.
The cables offer many such instances of the ideological deceptions practised by the purveyors of “Rising India”. Virtually all economic growth of recent years, a senior politician admits, is concentrated in the four southern states, two western states (Gujarat and Maharashtra) and “within 100km of Delhi”. But why worry? Another, from the BJP, has nieces and sisters living in the U.S., and “five homes to visit between DC and New York”. As for the entry of retailers like Walmart into India, oh, that “should not seriously hurt the mom and pop stores that form a BJP constituency”.
Not surprisingly, the Americans have developed contempt for such representatives of the world's largest democracy, who seem to validate Gandhi's denunciations of Parliament as a “prostitute”. Hillary Clinton gets right to the point in a cabled inquiry about Pranab Mukherjee, the Finance Minister widely tipped as India's next Prime Minister: “To which industrial or business groups is Mukherjee beholden? Whom will he seek to help through his policies? Why was Mukherjee chosen for the finance portfolio over Montek Singh Ahluwalia?” — the last named is a reliably pro-U.S. technocrat.
But no one stands more diminished by the leaks than the Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, one of the former employees of the World Bank and IMF who have helped make India safe for oligarchism. It has long been common knowledge in political circles that Mr. Singh removed his Petroleum Minister in 2006 for the latter's allegedly anti-American advocacy of a gas pipeline to Iran. We now know from the cables that the then U.S. Ambassador congratulated himself for this “undeniable pro-American tilt” of the Indian government. Visiting the White House in 2008, Mr. Singh induced a nationwide cringe when he blurted out to the most disliked American President ever: “The people of India deeply love you.” (Even George Bush looked startled.) This love unblushingly speaks its name in the cables; even the racketeers of Pakistani military and intelligence appear dignified when compared with the Indians stampeding to plant kisses on U.S. behinds. Mr. Singh has presided over an ignominious surrender of national sovereignty and dignity.
There are many more revelations in store; these are tense days for many politicians, business people and journalists. They probably hope the bad news is buried by the cricket World Cup celebrations. They will also try to prove their fealty to the father of the Indian nation — last week politicians vied to threaten a sensitive study of Gandhi by the American writer Joseph Lelyveld with proscription. But there is nothing more un-Gandhian than this supra-national elite's wild cravings for power and wealth, and its indifference to suffering — a pathology of economic globalisation that Egyptians and Tunisians will soon learn elected governments don't cure, and even help conceal. — © Guardian Newspapers Limited, 2011
The deception at the heart of ‘Rising India'
Pankaj Mishra
Share · print · T+
Food prices become intolerable for the poor. Protests against corruption paralyse Parliament. Then a series of American diplomatic cables released by the WikiLeaks exposes a brazenly mendacious and venal ruling class; the head of government adored by foreign business people and journalists loses his moral authority, turning into a lame duck.
This sounds like Tunisia or Egypt, countries long deprived of representative politics and pillaged by the local agents of neoliberal capitalism. But it is India, where in recent days WikiLeaks has highlighted how democratic institutions are no defence against the rapacity and selfishness of globalised elites.
Most of the cables — being published by The Hindu, the country's most respected newspaper in English — offer nothing new to those who haven't drunk the “Rising India” Kool-Aid vended by business people, politicians and their journalist groupies. The evidence of economic liberalisation providing cover for a wholesale plunder of the country's resources has been mounting over recent months. The loss in particular of a staggering $39 billion in the government's sale of the telecom spectrum has alerted many Indians to the corrupt nexuses between corporate and political power.
Even the western financial press, unwaveringly gung-ho about the money to be made in India, is getting restless. Early this year, the Economist asked: “Is Indian capitalism becoming oligarchic?” — a question to which the only correct response is “Hell-ooo”. In the Financial Times, Indian business dynasties have been described as “robber barons”.
The intimate details about politicians revealed by the WikiLeaks still leave you speechless. What can one say about the former Cabinet Minister, a fervent spokesman for low-caste Hindus, who demanded a large bribe from Dow Chemical Company, which is being helped by senior American officials to overcome its association with the gas leak at the Union Carbide factory in Bhopal that in 1984 killed and maimed tens of thousands of Indians? Indeed, the cables reveal U.S. business and officials to be as embedded in India's politics as they are in Pakistan's. In 2008, the aide to an old courtier of the Nehru-Gandhi family showed a U.S. diplomat two chests containing $25 million in cash — money to bribe members of Parliament into voting for an India-US nuclear deal, itself a prelude to massive U.S. arms sales to India. Publicly opposed to the nuclear deal, the leaders of the Hindu nationalist BJP are at pains to reassure American diplomats of their pro-U.S. credentials, even dissing their murderous Hindu nationalism as opportunistic, a mere “talking point”.
The cables offer many such instances of the ideological deceptions practised by the purveyors of “Rising India”. Virtually all economic growth of recent years, a senior politician admits, is concentrated in the four southern states, two western states (Gujarat and Maharashtra) and “within 100km of Delhi”. But why worry? Another, from the BJP, has nieces and sisters living in the U.S., and “five homes to visit between DC and New York”. As for the entry of retailers like Walmart into India, oh, that “should not seriously hurt the mom and pop stores that form a BJP constituency”.
Not surprisingly, the Americans have developed contempt for such representatives of the world's largest democracy, who seem to validate Gandhi's denunciations of Parliament as a “prostitute”. Hillary Clinton gets right to the point in a cabled inquiry about Pranab Mukherjee, the Finance Minister widely tipped as India's next Prime Minister: “To which industrial or business groups is Mukherjee beholden? Whom will he seek to help through his policies? Why was Mukherjee chosen for the finance portfolio over Montek Singh Ahluwalia?” — the last named is a reliably pro-U.S. technocrat.
But no one stands more diminished by the leaks than the Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, one of the former employees of the World Bank and IMF who have helped make India safe for oligarchism. It has long been common knowledge in political circles that Mr. Singh removed his Petroleum Minister in 2006 for the latter's allegedly anti-American advocacy of a gas pipeline to Iran. We now know from the cables that the then U.S. Ambassador congratulated himself for this “undeniable pro-American tilt” of the Indian government. Visiting the White House in 2008, Mr. Singh induced a nationwide cringe when he blurted out to the most disliked American President ever: “The people of India deeply love you.” (Even George Bush looked startled.) This love unblushingly speaks its name in the cables; even the racketeers of Pakistani military and intelligence appear dignified when compared with the Indians stampeding to plant kisses on U.S. behinds. Mr. Singh has presided over an ignominious surrender of national sovereignty and dignity.
There are many more revelations in store; these are tense days for many politicians, business people and journalists. They probably hope the bad news is buried by the cricket World Cup celebrations. They will also try to prove their fealty to the father of the Indian nation — last week politicians vied to threaten a sensitive study of Gandhi by the American writer Joseph Lelyveld with proscription. But there is nothing more un-Gandhian than this supra-national elite's wild cravings for power and wealth, and its indifference to suffering — a pathology of economic globalisation that Egyptians and Tunisians will soon learn elected governments don't cure, and even help conceal. — © Guardian Newspapers Limited, 2011
^^LOL! How can it be deceptive when everyone knows about it! I don't expect much from Indian commies but plzz, right something meaningful! India is suffering high inflation for a while now. It's an extremely corrupt nation. THIS IS NOT NEWS. Surprise, surplice, not one word on how to fix even one problem. Yet there is no denying that Indian infrastructure is getting better, manufacturing is up, productivity is up, population growth is slowest in last decade, literacy is up....nothing happens in a day.
DESERT FIGHTER
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And that's suppose to impress me (I don't swing that way!). I weight 185 pound and I am about 180 cm tall, hardly an imposing figure (very average for US) and I am not impressed.
Yours truly
http://img819.imageshack.us/i/dscn00271.jpg/
pmukherjee
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Mr Tinu.
Thanks for educating me on my own country. I know all this, so do most Indians. Yes, America by its sheer money power does pull strings in not only India but in most of the countries of the world.
Yes we wanted that pipeline from Iran but we were not happy about the pipeline moving through Pakistan where 'Non state actors' could disrupt it any time they wanted. Every thing else that you hear is non sense. Petroleum minister of India is the last person to be asked when it is a pipeline from Iran or Turkmenistan. Our security establishment had shown the red flag much before this incident is supposed to have happened.
Yes we are sensitive towards Gandhiji just as you are sensitive about your Quaid-e-Azam. Why should we allow a foreigner to slander his image? Will you permit an American or a Briton to make innuendos about Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Who the hell is the Guardian? Let them call Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchil pedophiles if they want. We are not westerners and in real life too we revere our fathers.
Aahhh, the Indian Parliament was not voting for the Indo - US Nuclear deal when the cash for vote scam came up. There was a No Confidence move against the sitting govt moved by the opposition which the govt won narrowly.
We have never claimed that corruption was not rampant in India. Isn't it the same in your country too? Damn it, in the US, they even buy Governors of states.
You have collected a large number of articles from Indian and international media which show India in a bad light. You have ignored an even larger number of media articles which showed India in a good light. but that is only to be expected, no?
IndianTiger
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I think you people need to read this Most Muslim nations silent on China riots - World news - Asia-Pacific - msnbc.com
Mr. P Mukherjee Sir,
If you have time, go and sit with some of the people who have visited Pakistan. I have sat down with those who have visited India. Pakistan has its share of problems like India but its cities are not what Indian media project them to be. You may not like what I am saying, but it surprises all the Indians I know who have visited Pakistan. There are no gun totting Taliban running around in Lahore or Islamabad. There are limited number of Burqa clad women that you see in the streets. Lone women drive cars even at night. Yes there are dacoites and robberies and this and that - which are there in Delhi, in Bombay, in New York and London. All cities have dos and don’ts - which the citizens follow and remain safe. Yes we have terrorism - you have that too. We mutually blame each other for that rather than looking inside for the core reasons. Despite all that, Indians hate Pakistanis for the Muslim rule in India and breaking India into Pakistan, India and now Bangladesh. Your media goes berserk over minor things. You see posts here - more Indians than Pakistanis. WOW - but these are facts. Let us remain bad and let us be. But alas, this won’t happen as the world is governed by real-politic and not visions of what should it be. It will remain as it is no matter what. Good luck to all of us
.
If you have time, go and sit with some of the people who have visited Pakistan. I have sat down with those who have visited India. Pakistan has its share of problems like India but its cities are not what Indian media project them to be. You may not like what I am saying, but it surprises all the Indians I know who have visited Pakistan. There are no gun totting Taliban running around in Lahore or Islamabad. There are limited number of Burqa clad women that you see in the streets. Lone women drive cars even at night. Yes there are dacoites and robberies and this and that - which are there in Delhi, in Bombay, in New York and London. All cities have dos and don’ts - which the citizens follow and remain safe. Yes we have terrorism - you have that too. We mutually blame each other for that rather than looking inside for the core reasons. Despite all that, Indians hate Pakistanis for the Muslim rule in India and breaking India into Pakistan, India and now Bangladesh. Your media goes berserk over minor things. You see posts here - more Indians than Pakistanis. WOW - but these are facts. Let us remain bad and let us be. But alas, this won’t happen as the world is governed by real-politic and not visions of what should it be. It will remain as it is no matter what. Good luck to all of us
.
pmukherjee
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Mr Tinu,
Thanks for a sensible and a well meaning post. Yes both our nations have their share of good and evil. I opposed you only since you posted anti-India comments. I have nothing personal against you.
We do not blame Pakistan for Muslim rule in India. As you know, there were no Muslims in the areas where Pakistan exists today when Muhammad bin Quasim came along. So he converted everyone living there, most of whom were Hindus, also many Buddhists. Those that resisted were put to the sword. Anyway all that is ancient history. Muslim invasions of and Muslim influence on India is a part and parcel of our historical baggage. Denying it is pointless, like the English denying the Roman rule. What hurts is when some of your countrymen pretend to be part of that rule much like the Italians claiming that they once ruled England.
I also do not blame Pakistan for India's partition. I believe that our leaders chose that option deliberately. And anyway, does that really matter? The fact remains that we are neighbors. Have been neighbors for 60+ years, will remain so for many many more.
Let us call it quits here as friends and not as enemies. Regards.
Thanks for a sensible and a well meaning post. Yes both our nations have their share of good and evil. I opposed you only since you posted anti-India comments. I have nothing personal against you.
We do not blame Pakistan for Muslim rule in India. As you know, there were no Muslims in the areas where Pakistan exists today when Muhammad bin Quasim came along. So he converted everyone living there, most of whom were Hindus, also many Buddhists. Those that resisted were put to the sword. Anyway all that is ancient history. Muslim invasions of and Muslim influence on India is a part and parcel of our historical baggage. Denying it is pointless, like the English denying the Roman rule. What hurts is when some of your countrymen pretend to be part of that rule much like the Italians claiming that they once ruled England.
I also do not blame Pakistan for India's partition. I believe that our leaders chose that option deliberately. And anyway, does that really matter? The fact remains that we are neighbors. Have been neighbors for 60+ years, will remain so for many many more.
Let us call it quits here as friends and not as enemies. Regards.
Mr. P Mukherjee Sir,
If you have time, go and sit with some of the people who have visited Pakistan. I have sat down with those who have visited India. Pakistan has its share of problems like India but its cities are not what Indian media project them to be. You may not like what I am saying, but it surprises all the Indians I know who have visited Pakistan. There are no gun totting Taliban running around in Lahore or Islamabad. There are limited number of Burqa clad women that you see in the streets. Lone women drive cars even at night. Yes there are dacoites and robberies and this and that - which are there in Delhi, in Bombay, in New York and London. All cities have dos and don’ts - which the citizens follow and remain safe. Yes we have terrorism - you have that too. We mutually blame each other for that rather than looking inside for the core reasons. Despite all that, Indians hate Pakistanis for the Muslim rule in India and breaking India into Pakistan, India and now Bangladesh. Your media goes berserk over minor things. You see posts here - more Indians than Pakistanis. WOW - but these are facts. Let us remain bad and let us be. But alas, this won’t happen as the world is governed by real-politic and not visions of what should it be. It will remain as it is no matter what. Good luck to all of us
Dear Tinu,
Why should we hate Pakistan for Muslim rule in India. Pakistan came into existence in 1947 and those Muslim rulers always called this land Hindustan and never used any word like Pakistan. We only have a problem with the terrorist emanating from Pakistan . That's it. And we don't hate the Pakistani people. They are peace loving people- just like us. We only hate the Talibans, the Jaishs and the Lashkars that keeping mushrooming in Pakistan.
