Pakistan,s defence spending lowest in region

[NaMaloom]

In battle ground % of GDP spent on defense budget doesn't matter, what matter is how well equipped you are. Survival comes first, Luxuries later.

what are you referring to with luxury?

He meant plots in DHA, Bahria, Golf Course memberships, high profile civil job appointments, etc - 'luxuries later', they indeed do come later for Pak Fauj generals after retirement.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

He meant plots in DHA, Bahria, Golf Course memberships, high profile civil job appointments, etc - 'luxuries later', they indeed do come later for Pak Fauj generals after retirement.

He meant plots in DHA, Bahria, Golf Course memberships, high profile civil job appointments, etc - 'luxuries later', they indeed do come later for Pak Fauj generals after retirement.

When did that happen?

Officers get a plot or house in Askari or DHA because they pay for it.. They pay it throughout there service though from their salary .. If an officer who has served for like 27 years (and gets a basic pay of sound 90 K) and pays for things like plots of houses in societies which are actually built for retarded servicemen (and where civilians love to buy houses -) what's wrong ???




As for Golf club memberships really ??? When did that happen.. Even retired officers haw to pay for membership !




Bahria? When the Fk did thT happen?


And if an officer gets a job at some company is that a sin? He gets it on merit...

 

[NaMaloom]

When did that happen?

Officers get a plot or house in Askari or DHA because they pay for it.. They pay it throughout there service though from their salary .. If an officer who has served for like 27 years (and gets a basic pay of sound 90 K) and pays for things like plots of houses in societies which are actually built for retarded servicemen (and where civilians love to buy houses -) what's wrong ???

As for Golf club memberships really ??? When did that happen.. Even retired officers haw to pay for membership !

Bahria? When the Fk did thT happen?

And if an officer gets a job at some company is that a sin? He gets it on merit...

C'mon bro! It isn't rocket science nor deep space scientific mystery. Everyone knows how many businesses Pakistan Army runs in Pakistan. NOWHERE in the civilized world does a military have a corporate empire. Pakistan Army is probably only second to Egyptian Army in this racketeering and profiteering. And you're telling me that no general or anyone benefits and they're all just really innocent bunch of guys living in THE posh-est elitist enclaves of DHA all over the country where a common man cannot even afford to take a piss.

Have a read of Ayesha Siddiqa's 'Military Inc.'

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

C'mon bro! It isn't rocket science nor deep space scientific mystery. Everyone knows how many businesses Pakistan Army runs in Pakistan. NOWHERE in the civilized world does a military have a corporate empire. Pakistan Army is probably only second to Egyptian Army in this racketeering and profiteering. And you're telling me that no general or anyone benefits and they're all just really innocent bunch of guys living in THE posh-est elitist enclaves of DHA all over the country where a common man cannot even afford to take a piss.

Have a read of Ayesha Siddiqa's 'Military Inc.'

No active officer runs any "business".. These industries are run by retired servicemen and civilians for the welfare of retired soldiers!...


As for DHA .. Do you know why DHA was formed ? To provide houses to retired officers at no profit no loss basis.. But guess what? Today DHA houses like 90% civilians who love to buy property there to achieve some "status"...

It was all arid wasteland when they start.... and officers pay troughs their service and even after retirement to get that house.. Paying instalments though service (deducted from the basic salary)..

 

[NaMaloom]

No active officer runs any "business".. These industries are run by retired servicemen and civilians for the welfare of retired soldiers!...


As for DHA .. Do you know why DHA was formed ? To provide houses to retired officers at no profit no loss basis.. But guess what? Today DHA houses like 90% civilians who love to buy property there to achieve some "status"...

It was all arid wasteland when they start.... and officers pay troughs their service and even after retirement to get that house.. Paying instalments though service (deducted from the basic salary)..

And do tell us at what prices did DHA Karachi for instance buy up land that became Phase 1 to VIII. That's fine if you want to believe everything is rosy with Pakistani Armed Forces and its business enterprises & real estate dealings. You live in an alternate reality it seems.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

And do tell us at what prices did DHA Karachi for instance buy up land that became Phase 1 to VIII. That's fine if you want to believe everything is rosy with Pakistani Armed Forces and its business enterprises & real estate dealings. You live in an alternate reality it seems.

Do enlighten us.

And do take a look at this thread and others on the topic by Xeric:


Pak Armed Forces Non-Military Projects

 

[TankMan]

NOWHERE in the civilized world does a military have a corporate empire

You've clearly never heard of the military-industrial-congressional complex in the US.

And the Pakistani military itself has no corporate empire, it's just people who happen to be ex-military; which is perfectly legal and fine for them to start a business after they're done with their military service. Officers pay for the homes and plots they get on retirement. There are various systems and schemes to make it easier for them, yes, and again there's nothing wrong with that.

high profile civil job appointments,

After all the military experience, getting a job on merit isn't difficult. If they made it through the ranks in the military, it's because they're competent - what's wrong with having competent ex-military officers in high-profile civil positions?

Every developed military in the world has some sort of retirement benefits system for military officers. Instead, do you want them to spend decades fighting for Pakistan and then become homeless and jobless when they retire? Would you prefer if they were busy worrying about how they'll eat food and where they'll live after retirement instead of worrying about national security? What a way to maintain morale and integrity, please enlighten us more. I'm sure Pakistan will benefit a lot from this plan.

We might as well abolish the military and open our borders.

 

[NaMaloom]

You've clearly never heard of the military-industrial-congressional complex in the US.

And the Pakistani military itself has no corporate empire, it's just people who happen to be ex-military; which is perfectly legal and fine for them to start a business after they're done with their military service. Officers pay for the homes and plots they get on retirement. There are various systems and schemes to make it easier for them, yes, and again there's nothing wrong with that.

After all the military experience, getting a job on merit isn't difficult. If they made it through the ranks in the military, it's because they're competent - what's wrong with having competent ex-military officers in high-profile civil positions?

Every developed military in the world has some sort of retirement benefits system for military officers. Instead, do you want them to spend decades fighting for Pakistan and then become homeless and jobless when they retire? Would you prefer if they were busy worrying about how they'll eat food and where they'll live after retirement instead of worrying about national security? What a way to maintain morale and integrity, please enlighten us more. I'm sure Pakistan will benefit a lot from this plan.

We might as well abolish the military and open our borders.

Military guy getting appointed to a civil post of which he has NO prior experience nor qualitications is done on MERIT? hahhah I rest my case.

 

[TankMan]

Military guy getting appointed to a civil post of which he has NO prior experience nor qualitications is done on MERIT? hahhah I rest my case.

Seriously, you rest your case? Prepare to have it shredded then, since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

It depends on what civil posts we're talking about but civil post are generally managerial and military officers have the most experience in that since their job in the military is purely managerial. What else do you think military officers do? They have experience in logistics, human resources, security, accounting, inventories, procedures basically anything required of them in a civil post they would have experienced in the military.

Of course, the types of human resources or procedures change from soldiers to civilians and military procedures to civil, but that isn't at all difficult to adapt to.

Now if that's not merit enough for you, you need to learn what merit means. The merit is why the Civil Services have a quota for military officers.

 

[NaMaloom]

Seriously, you rest your case? Prepare to have it shredded then, since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

It depends on what civil posts we're talking about but civil post are generally managerial and military officers have the most experience in that since their job in the military is purely managerial. What else do you think military officers do? They have experience in logistics, human resources, security, accounting, inventories, procedures basically anything required of them in a civil post they would have experienced in the military.

Of course, the types of human resources or procedures change from soldiers to civilians and military procedures to civil, but that isn't at all difficult to adapt to.

Now if that's not merit enough for you, you need to learn what merit means. The merit is why the Civil Services have a quota for military officers.

You are barking up the wrong tree. I have enough relatives in Pakistani Army two of whom have attained the rank of Major General to know what goes on.. You can justify it all you like, it won't undo what my eyes have seen and the first hand accounts I have come across.

 

[TankMan]

You are barking up the wrong tree. I have enough relatives in Pakistani Army two of whom have attained the rank of Major General to know what goes on.. You can justify it all you like, it won't undo what my eyes have seen and the first hand accounts I have come across.

Anecdotal and irrelevant argument.

Your previous argument was that military officers don't have the experience or credentials to effectively work in civil posts after retiring. No amount of 'first hand accounts' can change the fact that military officers do receive the training and experience that is necessary if they work in civil posts. We weren't talking about ''what goes on'' - we were talking about whether or not it is right or acceptable, which it is.

Otherwise, I too have enough relatives and enough friends and their relatives in the Pakistani Army at high enough ranks to know what goes on. You can malign it all you like, it won't undo facts or others' evidence (anecdotal or otherwise).

 

[NaMaloom]

Anecdotal and irrelevant argument.

Your previous argument was that military officers don't have the experience or credentials to effectively work in civil posts after retiring. No amount of 'first hand accounts' can change the fact that military officers do receive the training and experience that is necessary if they work in civil posts. We weren't talking about ''what goes on'' - we were talking about whether or not it is right or acceptable, which it is.

Otherwise, I too have enough relatives and enough friends and their relatives in the Pakistani Army at high enough ranks to know what goes on. You can malign it all you like, it won't undo facts or others' evidence (anecdotal or otherwise).

That's your opinion. And I whole heartedly disagree just as you are free to disagree with mine. You haven't presented any facts either only made statements. In any case, it won't change my view of the military's business dealings. And to question something is not the same as 'maligning', what's next? You're going to bring up the cliched old excuse of the military establishment that 'its in the national interest'?

Soldiers are trained to fight, not run businesses. Minuscule management training here and there so as to make someone a better platoon leader or whatever does NOT equate to serious management training at a business school.

As for the 'argument' bit of it, I merely made a sarcastic comment in response to one of the posters here, you jumped in all hurt and defensive. And that's been the nature of your posts ever since. We all know what it means when someone gets defensive.

 

[TankMan]

That's your opinion. And I whole heartedly disagree just as you are free to disagree with mine. You haven't presented any facts either only made statements. In any case, it won't change my view of the military's business dealings

Very well.

And to question something is not the same as maligning'

To question something repeatedly after it has been answered and to make statements based on falsehoods (''the military's corporate empire'') is the same as maligning.

what's next? You're going to bring up the cliched old excuse of the military establishment that 'its in the national interest'?

No, I'm going to advise you to have a read through @Xeric 's post, Pak Armed Forces Non-Military Projects, which @DESERT FIGHTER linked to in his post (#51)

And do take a look at this thread and others on the topic by Xeric:
Pak Armed Forces Non-Military Projects

Soldiers are trained to fight, not run businesses. Minuscule management training here and there so as to make someone a better platoon leader or whatever does NOT equate to serious management training at a business school.

The military is not limited to soldiers. It has officers who are responsible for a very complex system of logistics, intelligence, human resources and management in general. The age of military officers being limited to field commanders or platoon leaders ended back in WW2.

Yes, I would agree that military officers' training and experience does not equate to business schooling, but it is not limited or minuscule. It is only a lot more practical and raw, as opposed to business schools' theoretical and streamlined training. No matter which business school you go to, dealing with and managing people as a practical skill needs to be developed through experience, which military officers have a lot of.

That makes them more than capable of efficiently handling any civil post they are given. If you think they shouldn't be given civil posts, that is your opinion, but I'd ask you to give a practical solution to what you deem to be a problem - should retired military officials be forbidden from civil posts? Or should the requirements and criteria be stricter for said civil posts?

As for the 'argument' bit of it, I merely made a sarcastic comment in response to one of the posters here, you jumped in

No, you made multiple not so sarcastic comments in a prolonged argument with @DESERT FIGHTER . If I jumped in I did so because this is a forum for discussion and there's no reason for me not to participate.

all hurt and defensive. And that's been the nature of your posts ever since.

I am slightly hurt, yes, because you're maligning my country's armed forces and I am a reasonably patriotic fellow. But defensive? Not in the slightest. It does, however, depend on your definition of defensive, so do elaborate on what you thought was defensive about my posts.

We all know what it means when someone gets defensive.

Enlighten us. What does it mean?

 

[The_Sidewinder]

If we talk about what % of GDP Pakistan wont be the lowest spender. But for a country of smaller size & threat perception its justifiable i guess.

If we talk about what % of GDP Pakistan wont be the lowest spender. But for a country of smaller size & threat perception its justifiable i guess.

 

[flameboard]

Learn from Iraq and Libya incidents. Their PhDs are fighting civil war in streets........ We have improved our educational status from 27% to 72% in past decade. We are going fine in field of education........

Literacy rate goes by ability to read a local newspaper. While an improvement in that is good. Pakistan still can do a lot better. Better educated people can only help the economy.

If you want to talk about Libya and Iraq then look at the facts they both were quite strong and heavily armed, and it wasn't until foreign intervention that those countries fell. the problem with those countries was their governments didn't deliver a fair government. Otherwise Libya made a lot of progress, it even had free healthcare. Gadaffi was unfair and greedy but the high education rate is what got his country there. No one looks at Libya and thinks if only they had spent more on weapons and less on education.


Also civil wars kind of make the countries strength useless because they can create divisions within the armed forces.