Pakistan, Russia agree to boost defence cooperation

[Mav3rick]

Hey, you asked us to mind our own business and I told you in no uncertain terms that we consider Russian arms sale to Pakistan is INDIAN business. Now do I need to explain you why?

You know what I find surprising........why would Pakistan be interested in Russian arms especially air defense systems when China itself is not interested in Russian arms any more? Wouldn't that mean that China is making systems atleast on par with the Russian systems?

Besides, its not as if Russia would sell us S-300PMU2 or more advanced SAM systems, then why bother.....most importantly, why bother when China produces the same systems with indigenous developments and enhancements.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Russia won't be going against the US, UK, France, Israel, China, India and Pakistan. These are all nuclear countries.

Soviet Union did not hesitate to clash with a nuclear China, what makes you think , they won't do so now?

A Preview Of Russia's New Military Doctrine

One contact involved in drafting the doctrine said China, not the west, is Russia's main preoccupation and a stand-off in the Far East would the only conceivable scenario under which Russia would threaten the use of nuclear weapons.

 

[Viper0011.]

And the Russians have had a very well developed sense of History unlike the Americans who most times have not seen beyond the ends of their noses. Which is why when "The Russian 'plan of action' will need to first meet with the United States of America sitting in Afghanistan", there will be no "BAM,OUCH etc." There will be a meeting and there will simply be accommodation

(you have not read/understood my earlier post#92). That is where the Russian Plan will actually "take off". For the simple reason that Russia wants to regain economic power. That will be accomplished by by adjustments and accomodation with USA, which incidentally the USA also sorely requires. In order to put a lid on Afghan affairs when USA re-adjusts its presence in Afghanistan. No US withdrawal, simply re-adjustment. And the USA will need Russia to watch its flank for it.
Watch Putin's moves now. He will not get drawn into any blood-letting while Uncle Sam will (even willy-nilly) parley with him. Both of them need each other to watch each other's back-side, if even to keep the Dragon at bay. That is where they will make common cause.
India does need to side with Russia at all. Rather both of these players will need India as a facilitator at various times.

As for the Pak-Fa deal, it is indicative of the changed relationship between India and Russia now. Rather than just buyer-seller, its more JV partnership now. Both know it and both have adjusted their affairs accordingly. Business will continue, the nature will be different.

Those days of the stereo-typical faceoffs of the Cold War era are over. While the erstwhile main protagonists of that time are some-what weary and emasculated old "war-horses".
While sharing a common wariness about the new "kid on the block".

Wow, I am impressed with the lack of common sense above. I hope you are not a strategic advisor to any high level institution.

1) Thanks for telling me that us Americans don't see past our nose. Soo much for outsourcing American jobs and giving Indian people enough food and money to bash us back with !!! Not sure WHY the US policy makers were actually 'looking' past their noses when they saw India on the map and tried to outsource American jobs and money there. Hope this answer how much 'past' our nose we can see!! You should be the LAST person to say crap like this when US is the biggest sponsor to your economy and to bring your middle class up.

2) The US will REMAIN in Afghanistan. There is no such thing as 'a meeting'. Why would you rent when you can own something? The US needs to watch the region, be next to Iran, Russia, the Chinese. That fact will remain unchanged. Sorry.

3) Pak-Fa....you are calling it a partnership (just like you guys did when US started talking about Outsourcing 'some' jobs to India from the US).....a few years from now, the JV will become an Indian owned venture in India. That's how you guys work. The Americans have and are learning this and the Russians are already aware of the fact. So, watch my word and wait for a year or so. You'll see defense ties between Russia and Pakistan growing much stronger.
I won't respond to any more of these posts as its now starting to pis* off the Indian members and the discussion will get sillier by the post. Let's wait and see.....time WILL prove you otherwise, I guarantee it!

 

[karan.1970]

An Indian who actually wakes up...... wouldn't that be the day mate.

Yeah.. Like you sticking to the topic and talking sense

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Wow, I am impressed with the lack of common sense above. I hope you are not a strategic advisor to any high level institution.

1) Thanks for telling me that us Americans don't see past our nose. Soo much for outsourcing American jobs and giving Indian people enough food and money to bash us back with !!! Not sure WHY the US policy makers were actually 'looking' past their noses when they saw India on the map and tried to outsource American jobs and money there. Hope this answer how much 'past' our nose we can see!! You should be the LAST person to say crap like this when US is the biggest sponsor to your economy and to bring your middle class up.

2) The US will REMAIN in Afghanistan. There is no such thing as 'a meeting'. Why would you rent when you can own something? The US needs to watch the region, be next to Iran, Russia, the Chinese. That fact will remain unchanged. Sorry.

3) Pak-Fa....you are calling it a partnership (just like you guys did when US started talking about Outsourcing 'some' jobs to India from the US).....a few years from now, the JV will become an Indian owned venture in India. That's how you guys work. The Americans have and are learning this and the Russians are already aware of the fact. So, watch my word and wait for a year or so. You'll see defense ties between Russia and Pakistan growing much stronger.
I won't respond to any more of these posts as its now starting to pis* off the Indian members and the discussion will get sillier by the post. Let's wait and see.....time WILL prove you otherwise, I guarantee it!

Jes' one thing first. You American?

1.That was'nt about ""us Americans"" neither or American Taxi-Drivers or Businessmen either. That was about American policy-makers being "unable to see beyond the ends of their noses", hence the grief of the "said Amercan Policy Makers" in Afghanistan.
BTW, outsourcing has everything to do with American Business and nothing to do with American Strategic Policy Makers. Trust you have the uncommon sense to divine that. And most of all American Business NEEDED to outsource their work to India to remain competitive. There was no altruistic "Sponsorship motives". Savvy. No "Mother Teresa Act"!! Whether I am the last or the first person to say that, its as clear as daylight.


2.Also you are still not reading/understanding my posts. I have said that USA is NOT WITHDRAWING from Afghanistan, USA is simply RE-ADJUSTING its presence. For which the USA needs Russia to watch its flank. While the Russians need the Americans to remain in Afghanistan to secure their flank so that they can concentrate their energy to reviving their economy. That will be the basis of future US-Russian engagement over Afghanistan and the Region. Thus allowing USA to prudently be able to cut its losses.
Not to mention a common cause wrt managing a "new kid on the block" that can upset both their calculations!

3.Rather amusing you can be. When are the Indian businessmen taking over Wall Street?? Then I'll certainly increase my investments in India!! The Indians are coming, the Indians are coming. Something like that?
As for the rest, we do not have to wait very long to see how events play out. 2-4 years max. Till then keep your guarantees safe in your pocket, lest they blow away!

 

[surya kiran]

It would have been much better if there was some sign of economic co-operation. Well, but then....everybody seems to be jumping on some smiles and words on defence co-operation. Gwadar, pipe-line, dams...

anyways, my non-sensical 2 bits. Please continue.

 

[Secur]

It would have been much better if there was some sign of economic co-operation. Well, but then....everybody seems to be jumping on some smiles and words on defence co-operation. Gwadar, pipe-line, dams...

anyways, my non-sensical 2 bits. Please continue.

Seriously , cant you see the signs of economic cooperation between Moscow and Islamabad ? ... Haven't you heard about the recent Russian interest in Pakistani projects ?

 

[surya kiran]

Seriously , cant you see the signs of economic cooperation between Moscow and Islamabad ? ... Haven't you heard about the recent Russian interest in Pakistani projects ?

Heard a lot of things. Not seen any. Maybe I am a little outdated with info. Any projs started?

 

[Thorough Pro]

how can you forget that we are follower's of Chankaya.

So you are followere of chankia when Pasitan buys weapons, who do you follow when you buy weapons yourself? hight of hipocracy

And with what money will Pakistan buy these Russian Weapons?

I highly doubt that Pakistan can use US Aid Money to buy Russian Weapons.

US aid money is never in cash form, rather in kind.

Actual heading: China TO offer
Claim on this forum: China HAS offered

see the difference? As some indian memebr posted earlier in this thread, bellieve it when it happens.

They know what will please the pakistanis the most.. For some nations, its economic cooperation.. For Pakistan, its an offer of defence goodies





China to offer India attack helicopters | The China Times

 

[KRAIT]

With US going away from Pakistan, isn't it too obvious for Russia to increase its diplomatic ties. It doesn't mean Russia will help Pakistan in time of war or giving them weapons if India opposes.

Pakistan will again be ally of US if US give them more funds, Civil nuclear deal like they gave to India, drones which Pakistan has been asking...and list goes on.

Its geo-politics......Why wouldn't Russia increase its ties with Pakistan who is another neighbor of Afghanistan where US is present and going to be there even after 2014.

There is nothing more important than sharing a land border. It goes a long way. Isn't it obvious with Russia's stance towards Syria and Iran....

Wouldn't Russia try to take equal standing with China and form more stronger SCO......may be even advocate more for inclusion of India......

US used to give weapons to Pakistan, now giving to India, I won't be surprised if Russia do the same, but Pakistan didn't offer that much trade than India do with Russia.

Defense deal with India is different, Russia is also in line to build nuclear plants in India, its also a billion dollar business.....

Look at the market scenario first, think about geo-political, economic and diplomatic scenarios.....there are no foes, no friends in International Politics

 

[Viper0011.]

Jes' one thing first. You American?

1.That was'nt about ""us Americans"" neither or American Taxi-Drivers or Businessmen either. That was about American policy-makers being "unable to see beyond the ends of their noses", hence the grief of the "said Amercan Policy Makers" in Afghanistan.
BTW, outsourcing has everything to do with American Business and nothing to do with American Strategic Policy Makers. Trust you have the uncommon sense to divine that. And most of all American Business NEEDED to outsource their work to India to remain competitive. There was no altruistic "Sponsorship motives". Savvy. No "Mother Teresa Act"!! Whether I am the last or the first person to say that, its as clear as daylight.

I don't think you read my posts very well. If you re-read it again (and may be a few posts), common sense will tell you the stuff that I am saying isn't just what a taxi driver or an 'ordinary' businessman knows....
No Americans needed to outsource work. You guys taught them the word 'cheap labor'. What started from 'some jobs' caused 13 million of them. I might name companies that are running human trafficking networks. Ram works on Sham's papers, you interview Radha, Pooja shows up as Radha.....the resume says 'BS in electronics engineering from Pune university' when the person may have never been to Pune....THEN there is the lobby, that blatantly offers decision maker at ALL levels, give me this business, we'll buy you a house or Bungalow in India or in other places. I have heard it ALL. Be careful, I don't think you'd like it if I start giving you specific examples of what your nation is doing to the US!!!! I've seen a lot of crap, but such illegal and unethical business practices, I've not seen ever.
Btw, YES, I am PROUD to be an American and as American as they come.

Here's some food for your 'thoughts' that aren't as straight as they need to be:

http://www.barandbench.com/brief/2/161/indian-american-lawyer-commits-2-million-fraud

http://www.foxbusiness.com/business...four-criminal-counts-in-insider-trading-case/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/16/raj-rajaratnam-charged-wi_n_323879.html

http://news.cnet.com/Indian-police-make-arrests-in-outsourcing-fraud/2100-1014_3-5660274.html

 

[Mav3rick]

Yeah.. Like you sticking to the topic and talking sense

Or you, understanding anything for a change

 

[araz]

With US going away from Pakistan, isn't it too obvious for Russia to increase its diplomatic ties. It doesn't mean Russia will help Pakistan in time of war or giving them weapons if India opposes.

Pakistan will again be ally of US if US give them more funds, Civil nuclear deal like they gave to India, drones which Pakistan has been asking...and list goes on.

Its geo-politics......Why wouldn't Russia increase its ties with Pakistan who is another neighbor of Afghanistan where US is present and going to be there even after 2014.

There is nothing more important than sharing a land border. It goes a long way. Isn't it obvious with Russia's stance towards Syria and Iran....

Wouldn't Russia try to take equal standing with China and form more stronger SCO......may be even advocate more for inclusion of India......

US used to give weapons to Pakistan, now giving to India, I won't be surprised if Russia do the same, but Pakistan didn't offer that much trade than India do with Russia.

Defense deal with India is different, Russia is also in line to build nuclear plants in India, its also a billion dollar business.....

Look at the market scenario first, think about geo-political, economic and diplomatic scenarios.....there are no foes, no friends in International Politics

I dont think US is going anywhere away from pakistan at the moment. 7 months of wrangling has proven beyond doubt that the US interest in Afghanistan requires routes into it from Pakistan. The Russian alliance is a matter of realligning and correcting a historical falacy which pakistani foreign policy has suffered and it is a good step.
The defence relationship may also be an offshoot of a mutually beneficial situation. Please remember that Russia still get royalties on all RD 93 engines that get sold. So it is a situation of sorting out the niggles in the working relationship. If anything more concrete comes out of it in future so be it, but for the moment the trust deficit has not been wiped out so completely that the two countries will have an alliance Ala Indo Russia or Sino Pak. So these are first tentative steps and should be thought of as such. Russain STANCE ON SYRIA AND IRAN HAVE DIFFERENT CONNOTATIONS. I WOULD NOT ALLIE THE TWO OF THEM IN ONE GO. While both are strategically important the reasons are different.
Araz

 

[fatman17]

lets all wait until Mr. Putin's visit to PK. then we will find out what 'enhanced defence co-operation' means.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

we should focus purely on Air defence.....we saw how Russians screwed over Iran over the S-300 deal but if we play our cards correctly and assuming there are no UN calls to embargo arms against Pakistan we should certainly go for those systems.

in my own opinion.


medium-high/high coverage is where we are lacking

Besides, its not as if Russia would sell us S-300PMU2 or more advanced SAM systems, then why bother.....most importantly, why bother when China produces the same systems with indigenous developments and enhancements.

i dont see why they wouldnt sell it.....show them the cash, they'll sell it no problem. They dont have a Congress and some pesky Washington DC senators to report to and seek permission.

I think at the very least we should host a live demonstration at some place PAF chooses....we did the same with the Spada 2000s in cooperation with Italians. Now we have the Spada systems as well as the maintenance facility in Pakistan.


of course a certain arch-foe country is one of their primary arms purchasers but obviously it goes without saying our side has that in mind....