Pakistan rumored to be interested in additional RJAF F-16s

[VCheng]

Where did I say the appeasement will include F16s. I think the needs of the army and the needs of the new Government need to be looked into.
A

I was just trying to keep the topic of the thread included in my post.

 

[araz]

Although we pray it would conclude, given how the Pakistan Army is handling the situation, America is probably going to withdraw its "favours." If Imran Khan returns to power, America will try to punish Pakistan, which could hurt not only this deal but also any other agreements that are currently in place.

The relationship between Pakistan and the United States will likely become even more rocky in the future. We are grateful to the Pakistani Army for their superior organisation.

I would disagree. The US does need a pliant Pakistan but definitely wants to avoid an kut and out confrontation with Pakistan. Our job is to convince that we can be friends and partners in trade 2hich can be mutually beneficial. We have opportunities which US companies can gain from. We want our non alligned status and we do not want our soil used for activites against another nation. Behind the scenes we can share intelligence but on out turf the only ones gathering it will be us.
On a military to military level mutual exchanges can occur and we need to benefit from US insight into latest trends in warfare. However military to military contacts should be under the remit of mutually agreed parameters. Ie no buying of people. Anyone ha ing property in US should be dismissed post haste post court martial.
A

I was just trying to keep the topic of the thread included in my post.

Masoom Shah Jee

 

[Vapnope]

What you state above is a mere hypothetical personal opinion

Based on certain facts that US didn't allow engine for ATAK helicopters. We were denied CBU105 in past, the story of drones is well known to everyone. Pakistan would have gotten V kits if they were available as well.

You are in denial or too stubborn to accept that Pakistan and US are at not at that state where only money would be the issue.

 

[VCheng]

Pakistan and US are at not at that state where only money would be the issue.

For that situation, the blame is more on Pakistan than USA. Clearly. But my point is that if Pakistan had enough money, it could change that situation. But it does not. And it won't.

 

[K_Bin_W]

What boggles the mind is, that given the track record the khakis still trust US. If Pak can fly these birds when sanctions are in full swing than go for it if not I will take them if they are free. Ah yes I know there is no such thing as free lunch.

 

[LeGenD]

There is dealing and then there is dealing.
US and India alignment is not pure trade, it is far deeper.

It extends into SigInt, Cyber, CT in Kashmir, Intelligence sharing and most importantly China containment (other areas are energy, nuclear, market access, trade, immigration, culture, and education). Many of these elements work directly against our interests. Either we vociferously take that up with the Yanks (and take our time to build bridges there) or understand and accept the dynamic, and react accordingly. Short of this we'll over time loose any sense of independence and sovereignty in areas of foreign policy. The India Congressional Caucus is a powerful lobby, second only to the Israeli lobby, and please don't tell me that will not have a bearing on the future relationship.

How we cannot understand this dynamic and not consider its implications in both time of peace but also in times of war befuddles me. Modern machinery is temperamental and complex. Simple parts shortages can ground entire fleets. Advanced circuitry and control systems make programmatic and OEM oversight unflappable. In the rigor of war poor support will over time diminish war fighting capacity. Add to this Indian training against our fighting unit types, also can play into reduction of our fighting efficacy.

US has been very clear to us. In our discussions with them they have told us in clear terms that they expect not only South Asian but Pacific policy to be aligned with Indian interests. They have asked us to reduce temperature in Kashmir which we did. They were very upset with Moeed's and PTI strategy of vilifying Indian policies and BJPs Hinduvta tendencies which was slowly starting to take hold and raise questions around US's own Human Rights proclamations and its hypocrisy. This was and is diluting their efforts around Uyghirs. Pakistan has bent backwards in allaying US concerns regarding India. The result is India is getting bolder on all fronts.

Disinformation, funding of Pakistani politics, funding and planning Baluch insurgency, funding and planning of TTP and other groups, while pushing Pakistan outside of International mainstream in every conceivable channel from simple things like sports to global economic and political groups. The FATF white-listing was not because of India it was in-spite of India and with lots of help from others (not the US), and also by the mere fact that FATF needed to salvage some credibility of its independence.

India is playing consistently its Zero-Sum game, and we are the idiots for it.
I have said all I needed to on this topic.

Our efforts to liberate J&K have repeatedly failed because Indian military is not like ANA. American pressure on Pakistan to reduce temperature in J&K was to OUR BENEFIT because India was willing to attack Pakistan for this reason. Americans are of the view that this conflict can turn nuclear. Is this difficult to understand?

Do you think Americans love Modi and Hindutva? They do not, but see [1] below.

Do you think Khan (handsome) can isolate India? He cannot.

Modi gets top UAE honour amid Kashmir lockdown

Outrage as UAE gives highest civilian medal to Modi days after India strips Kashmir’s special status and imposes curfew.

www.aljazeera.com

Saudi Arabian Investments in India | Invest India

Business investment opportunities for Saudi Arabian investors to invest in India. Know about sectors, states, and FDI policy for Saudi Arabia

www.investindia.gov.in

[1] India is a democracy and does not suffer from political crisis. India has a functioning economy and purchasing power. Indian market is huge and lucrative. India keeps its distance from global conflicts and is not eager to please any camp.

How do you think Pakistan stack up in comparison?

- Corruption
- Political instability
- Dysfunctional economy and lack of purchasing power
- Militancy problem
- Tendency to blame others for everything bad in the country
- Anti-Americanism

Americans do not have a problem providing opportunities to Pakistani Public (more on this below) but they are put off by the above.

Pakistan had golden opportunity to reshape Afghanistan with USA but squandered it.

Moderate Afghans were perceived as a threat to Pakistani interests and Pakistan did everything possible to restore Afghan Taliban to power in Afghanistan but BLA and TTP continue to launch attacks in Pakistan from Afghanistan. This shows that these organizations have localized economic arrangement(s) and do not rely upon India to function and do their bidding. Afghanistan is doing so well on the other hand.

Ten years of Afghan economic growth, reversed in just 12 months: UNDP

A year on from the Taliban takeover in Kabul, Afghanistan is gripped by “cascading crises”, including a crippled economy that humanitarian aid alone cannot address, according to a new report from the UN Development Programme (UNDP) on Wednesday.

news.un.org

Strategic depth is achieved, right?

Now look around Pakistan:

Afghanistan = Lack of economic ties due to corruption

How Pakistan lost potential Afghan investments? | The Express Tribune

Pakistan’s exports to Afghanistan in Sept were around $80m while imports were $125m

tribune.com.pk

WE have trade deficit with Afghanistan in the present. Imagine this.

Iran = Lack of economic ties due to sanctions

India = Lack of economic ties due to conflict

China = Good relations but unable to reduce trade deficit

Trade deficit with neighbours widens in FY22

Pakistan’s exports to nine regional countries rose 16.97pc while imports grew by nearly 28.84pc in FY22.

www.dawn.com

CPEC could not address socio-economic challenges of Pakistan in spite of tall claims and promises from our leaders. It simply cannot because it caters to select industries and infrastructure.

Future of CPEC projects

The high point of roll out-of mega projects under the CPEC (China Pakistan Economic Corridor) was in the last tenure...

www.brecorder.com

Much of Pakistani diaspora is in the WEST and Middle East. These people contribute to Pakistan economy with remittances. Many in Pakistan find entrepreneurial opportunities on numerous Western platforms including Facebook, Twitter, Whatsapp, Fiverr, Upworks and Amazon to make ends meet. Western companies provide numerous job opportunities on the ground as well. These people are positively contributing to Pakistan economy.

But WE should give up on US now because of American investments in India. Pakistan can really teach other countries about how to SELF-DESTRUCT.

US is in search for alternative markets to China and India is a big one. Of-course, US will get closer to India.

What does Pakistan offers to US in comparison? WE have yet to decide.

Let us talk about arms now.

China provides military equipment and technology to Pakistan - immensely appreciated. But do you think China provides its best to Pakistan? Why would it?

China also learns from Pakistani feedback to improve its military equipment. Pakistan could provide this kind of feedback due to exposure to Western military equipment and technology in times of the War On Terror.

WE need to be in touch with Western options to know how Chinese options stack up in comparison. But this luxury is on the line.

Do you think that Western countries are eager to sell military equipment and technology to Pakistan in the present?

 

[Abid123]

You are in denial or too stubborn to accept that Pakistan and US are at not at that state where only money would be the issue.

This guy is known for being "US worshiper". No point even trying to convince him.

 

[Trango Towers]

True, but J-10Cs is a superior plane to JF-17s.

They are two planes for very different roles.

 

[VCheng]

Masoom Shah Jee

At my age, to be called that is a high compliment indeed. Thank you!

 

[MultaniGuy]

They are two planes for very different roles.

This I did not know. But then why buy J-10Cs if JF-17s were sufficient.

JF-17s was a joint project between Pakistan and China to help Pakistan's aviation industry.

And to replace the aging Mirages.

 

[Trango Towers]

This I did not know. But then why buy J-10Cs if JF-17s were sufficient.

JF-17s was a joint project between Pakistan and China to help Pakistan's aviation industry.

And to replace the aging Mirages.

Once again...they are two aircraft for VERY DIFFERENT ROLES .

 

[MultaniGuy]

Once again...they are two aircraft for VERY DIFFERENT ROLES .

Okay, fine then.

 

[Tornado23]

This I did not know. But then why buy J-10Cs if JF-17s were sufficient.

JF-17s was a joint project between Pakistan and China to help Pakistan's aviation industry.

And to replace the aging Mirages.

Jf17 is a light combat aircraft intended to replace the ageing fleet of A5C, F7 and Mirages. Its supposed to retire and replace those jets, ultimately taking their roles. Such as CAS and Air to Air combat.

The J10CP is a medium weight fighter. As we know so far, it's a force multiplier to our existing fleet. It's role is apparently multi role, however we have only seen it with Air to Air load outs. No CAS load outs have been seen in the PAF service so far.


So to sum up, jf17 will do CAS and air to Air.

J10CP is Air to Air only.


@Deino

 

[MultaniGuy]

Jf17 is a light combat aircraft intended to replace the ageing fleet of A5C, F7 and Mirages. Its supposed to retire and replace those jets, ultimately taking their roles. Such as CAS and Air to Air combat.

The J10CP is a medium weight fighter. As we know so far, it's a force multiplier to our existing fleet. It's role is apparently multi role, however we have only seen it with Air to Air load outs. No CAS load outs have been seen in the PAF service so far.


So to sum up, jf17 will do CAS and air to Air.

J10CP is Air to Air only.


@Deino

I concur with you.

 

[EternalMortal]

Has Pakistan offered any money to sweeten the pot enough? Or something else that would be more useful to the other side?

But that just proves the point. What is this something else other than money that is useful? Remember we weren’t paying the US directly for those engines so it can’t be that it’s not enough money.

Same with the Zulus. It’s not the lack of money that halted the deal. We were paying the full cost either way. (And yes, I don’t consider using the money that we’re owed to begin with a subsidy).