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Pakistan presents a Policy Paper to the US on Afghanistan

if anything wikileaks has made kayani to be an even more leadership figure in my opinion and i have more respect for him than i did before...there is atleast someone in Pakistan's administration who still has a brain, Kayani didn't want to stage a coup rather he wanted Asfand Khan as the president..That would have worked wonders in terms of stabilizing the northern areas, not a fan of Asfand Khan but a pashtun president could have pushed us a lot closer to gaining an even better foothold in the taliban reconciliation not to mention the flood fiasco would have been handled a 100 times better...Karachi riots could have been easily prevented..so hats off to kayani for putting a choice out there that was as remarkable as this and that coincidentally completely got ignored by other policy makers
 
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They were discussing over throwing a democratically elected government with an ambassador of a foreign country. they were blatantly making political statements. This does not suit staff officers that is why i think they need to resign. I for one have lost all respect for Gen Kayani and Lt. Gen Pasha

I hate to do that but i had to deviate from subject matter in reply to your baseless belief.

Malik told Patterson Shuja Pasha schemed against Zardari

LAHORE: WikiLeaks has revealed that Interior Minister Rehman Malik told former US envoy Anne Patterson that it was not General Ashfaq Kayani but former ISI chief General Ahmed Shuja Pasha who was hatching conspiracies against President Asif Ali Zardari, a private TV channel reported on Friday. The cables revealed that Malik sought an urgent appointment to meet with Patterson in November 2009 and said that Pasha was hatching plots against Zardari, adding that the latter needed political security. However, Patterson was certain that the ISI chief could not do it alone. daily times monitor
 
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Excellent words, but they also mean that the following inferences logically should follow:

1. The institutions of the said nuclear power are not working as they should.
Some institutions are not working as they should, not all. Primarily it is the civilian governments at the federal and provincial levels.
2. Descent into anarchy and chaos cannot be allowed to happen given the complications associated with the existence of the know-how and materials of nuclear devices.
Hence the role played by other Centers of power in Pakistan to defuse the crises.
3. The long-term solution should be to de-nuclearize the weapons and stabilize the institutions.
Denuclearization is a decision that the people of Pakistan and its strategic community will make, and so long as the disputes with India continue, there is zero possibility of denuclearization even being considered. A fact substantiated by the reports that far from denuclearizing, Pakistan currently has the fastest expanding and modernizing nuclear arsenals in the world.

The only option that leaves is 'stabilizing the institutions long term.

Like it or not, #3 is going to be imposed sooner or later.
Like it or not, given that Pakistan currently has the fastest expanding nuclear weapons programs in the world, and hostility with India continues, there is not a chance that denuclearizing will occur, and the West has no way to force denuclearization to occur either.

The only thing the West can do is support the strengthening of institutions and nuclear controls in cooperation with Pakistan.:cheers:
 
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Its very hard to disagree with you because i respect you but let me give it a try. Kayani was discussing with a foreign diplomate that he was going to remove the democratically elected president who by the way he works for (disclaimer: I too would like to see Zardari leave but only through democratic means).
Kayani was interfering in politics in contravention of the oath he took when he became an officer in the Pakistan army. By removing zardari he was usurping the will of the pakistani people.
I am some what uneasy but appreciative of the role he played in the long march saga. But he again was indulging in politics by saying that he doesnt was nawaz in power. He had no right to say that again that is the will of the Pakistani people who they send in office of the PM.
My basic problem i guess is that i thought this was the first general who actually got it that Pakistan can only become a modern nation through democratically elected government not through military Junta's. But i guess he is just like all the others.
Kiyani was expressing his opinions in the face of a crises, and discussing with concerned world powers the options h could exercise to stabilize the country and save its Democratic process and government. Nawaz couldn't come to power since the PPP coalition had the majority in Parliament. For what its worth, Kiyani allegedly said he didn't like Zardari as President either, yet Zardari is still there.

While we would all prefer that the military not interference at all in the political process, when the politicians start acting like bratty dictators and threaten to plunge the country into anarchy and violence, it is the responsibility for any institution or individual with influence to try and defuse the crises, and in Pakistan that typically ends up being the COAS.

When the politicians mature and other civilian institutions such as the judiciary and law enforcement can function independently and provide checks and balances on the powers of the politicians, and stop these shenanigans and stop threatening to plunge the country into crises, the role of the military in defusing crises ends automatically.

For example, had we had an independent judiciary and law enforcement at the time of the Sharifs disqualification and dismissal of the Punjab government, those actions could have been challenged in court and the decisions enforced by law enforcement, removing the need for Army intervention. But so long as politicians continue to keep institutions weak and subservient to their whims, such crises will keep occurring and non-civillian centers of power will keep plashing their role.

Kiyani has so far only stepped in when there has been a crisis that has threatened to destabilize the country, and that is how it should be.
 
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There is still a remote possibility of Kayani taking over..
There were musings within the senior army staff during the judges standoff about stepping in.. however.. Kayani is convinced that no takeover is possible..until the public literally "begs" the army to take over.
If one remembers the statements by the fatso in London...things were bleaker then in both the political and social arena.. and it is quite likely..that the statement by Mr Hussain..may not have been entirely his own..again..it is based on hearsay and speculation..but rest assured..the establishments political wing is far from disbanded.
Currently though.. for all its worth..the situation is relatively stable..
and there has been a little upset in the Army as well regarding the recent promotions...some of which were unpopular with the troops... as one or two of the promoted men were close associates of Kiyani in the past and circumvented their superiors..and the merit list to take seniority.
Things aren't all pro-Kiyani at GHQ anymore...
 
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^^^Kayani will take over as a puppet only when his puppeteers want him to do so, and will continue only as long as needed, just like his predecessors.

There is NO power center in Pakistan, currently, or for the foreseeable future, including the army, that is sovereign or independent by any stretch of the imagination, nor can be described to be in correct working order.
 
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There is only one functioning power in Pakistan and that is Kayani. All roads have to bypass him, the only reason the country hasn't totally disintegrated in the last couple of years. all the politicians can have their games but COAS is there to stop them doing something really damaging to the country. Like it or not, democratic or not, that is how it is in Pakistan and that is how it has to remain until the politicians, or others, actually take it upon themselves to fix the civilian institutions.
 
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There is only one functioning power in Pakistan and that is Kayani. All roads have to bypass him, the only reason the country hasn't totally disintegrated in the last couple of years. all the politicians can have their games but COAS is there to stop them doing something really damaging to the country. Like it or not, democratic or not, that is how it is in Pakistan and that is how it has to remain until the politicians, or others, actually take it upon themselves to fix the civilian institutions.

That is indeed a great pity. And the way you describe an individual (and not an institution) as a "power" is an insight into your mindset bordering on mere sycophancy.

When you say all roads must "bypass" him, do you mean they all lead to him or pass through him, right? If that is the case, then the office of the COAS is operating way beyond its station to the detriment of the country.

To claim that is is doing so because of the ineptitude of the civil power structures is a self-serving argument because it also means that is in the interests of those who have usurped this authority to maintain the status quo and keep destroying any intiatives to redress this situation.

Like I said, it is a great pity indeed.
 
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That is indeed a great pity. And the way you describe an individual (and not an institution) as a "power" is an insight into your mindset bordering on mere sycophancy.

I meant the Army Headquarters, the head of which currently happens to be Kayani. That is why I took his name.

When you say all roads must "bypass" him, do you mean they all lead to him or pass through him, right? If that is the case, then the office of the COAS is operating way beyond its station to the detriment of the country.

To claim that is is doing so because of the ineptitude of the civil power structures is a self-serving argument because it also means that is in the interests of those who have usurped this authority to maintain the status quo and keep destroying any intiatives to redress this situation.

Like I said, it is a great pity indeed.

But you and I know that this is the reason that this is why the Army has such power in other sectors: the incompetence of the civilian authorities. Whether or not they are focussing on maintaining the status quo, I do not know. If they are, that is very sad.
 
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After hearing everything that Gen Kayani and Lt. Gen Pasha said, i think it is time for them to resign. But it is good that americans know where we stand officially.

This comment is not related to this article. Here we are discussing presentation of Pakistani point of view to Obama by General Kiyani.
I think all responsible institutions of country must have some sort of planning in a particular situation. Imagine over a million people start marching towards capital and the area they are to pass through belong to their provincial government, Federal Government is not ready to find anyway out and prepares itself for a head on clash. So COAS was bound to workout his plan with certain options. So sending Zardari was one of the options or not considering NS may have been due to his agreement and his track record of abiding by the same, which has not been good. But the end result was important that Kiyani managed everything nicely as those should have. He should be respected for his effort instead asking for resign
 
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Let me guess what the paper includes.

We need more money, more weapons, India has gained so much influence in Afghanistan, we have concerns about Karzai, we will continue to bow before America five times a day as long as America keeps our top brass happy and rich etc etc...

No offence to my dear Pak Army as a whole... but this is how we have been operating as a nation for as long as Pakistan was created...

Let us move on folks... We have tremendous talent in the Indo Pak nations and we need to sit down together and sort out our mess with co operation... If Indians are not sincere in this then I think we should leave everything aside and prepare for a final showdown with India... Enough is enough...
 
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Let me guess what the paper includes.

We need more money, more weapons, India has gained so much influence in Afghanistan, we have concerns about Karzai, we will continue to bow before America five times a day as long as America keeps our top brass happy and rich etc etc...

No offence to my dear Pak Army as a whole... but this is how we have been operating as a nation for as long as Pakistan was created...

Let us move on folks... We have tremendous talent in the Indo Pak nations and we need to sit down together and sort out our mess with co operation... If Indians are not sincere in this then I think we should leave everything aside and prepare for a final showdown with India... Enough is enough...

Insufficient information about issue. For your information

YouTube - Aaj kamran khan ke saath - 2nd december 2010 part 1
 
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Let me guess what the paper includes.

We need more money, more weapons, India has gained so much influence in Afghanistan, we have concerns about Karzai, we will continue to bow before America five times a day as long as America keeps our top brass happy and rich etc etc...

No offence to my dear Pak Army as a whole... but this is how we have been operating as a nation for as long as Pakistan was created...

Let us move on folks... We have tremendous talent in the Indo Pak nations and we need to sit down together and sort out our mess with co operation... If Indians are not sincere in this then I think we should leave everything aside and prepare for a final showdown with India... Enough is enough...

Very well said on the bolded part :tup:
 
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Let me guess what the paper includes.

We need more money, more weapons, India has gained so much influence in Afghanistan, we have concerns about Karzai, we will continue to bow before America five times a day as long as America keeps our top brass happy and rich etc etc...

No offence to my dear Pak Army as a whole... but this is how we have been operating as a nation for as long as Pakistan was created...

Let us move on folks... We have tremendous talent in the Indo Pak nations and we need to sit down together and sort out our mess with co operation... If Indians are not sincere in this then I think we should leave everything aside and prepare for a final showdown with India... Enough is enough...

Don't be a kid, there is nothing as sincerity and every country peruses its interests. So this is a precarious situation and needs to be handled with care.
 
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Many thanks for the video Alibaz and JzkAllah Khair for the comments also...

Please allow me to discuss the video first...

1. Pak Army is NOT a Ghair Mutanaziah institution as this gentleman is claiming... The common man on the street, the middle class of Pakistan has reservations and a lot of concern about Pak Army... Having leaders like Ayub, Yahya, Zia and Musharaf have not helped the Army's image to be very honest.

2. He points out that America has a very bad image within the Awam of Pakistan and that there is a need of changing this impression... Do you see the tally in what I said about bowing to America... Who cares what image America has within the Pakistani public's mind? Is he serving America or is he serving Pakistan? Furthermore to think that America will regain its image anytime soon is just wishful thinking now... American image has been destroyed beyond repair... It is not a Pakistani phenomenon, it is a global phenomenon...

3. Mr Kamran mentions that Gen Ashfaq told Barak Obama all these points about America's impression within Pakistan public but also said that this is not the impression that Pakistan Army has of America... So what is Pakistan's Army's impression of America then? Is it different from what the public thinks of America?

4. Ok I m writing as I m watching the video... Kiyani mentions that the military thinks that Pakistan and America have different goals and aims and we are being put under unnecessary pressure and that our roads are not the same in the future...

Ok I admit... This is a much more dignified stance from the Army chief than I would have expected from the likes of Musharaf... The video in the end shows Kiyani addressing Pak Army soldiers and says that if the nation is behind the Army then we shall be successful... He should know that the nation will always be behind the Army for as long as it upholds the nation's best interests, learns from its mistakes and supports those who have vision and desire to bring a lasting solution to the problems of this country... Wish Kiyani would give some of my friends an audience... We could prepare a good presentation for him and the top brass...

5. Ok... I m not being a kid... I m being optimistic... If Indians are not sincere... then we need to sort them out once and for all... It is doing our nation no good the current status quo and stalemate with India... Our Army should start preparing war exercises to conquer India from this day and moment then...
 
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