Pakistan (non nuclear)plan to counter cold start

[Motiur Rehman]

Pak need a maritime offensive force to capture Mumbai...

 

[Signalian]

Indian CSD is comfortably countered without NASR too.

Only Armoured and mechanised formations of both countries have been mentioned which will be involved when India launches CSD. Of course infantry can play a significant role along with Air Force. The direction of attack may vary but this is to give an idea of deployment of forces of both countries along the border focusing on IA CSD forces.

Pakistani forces are Yellow and Blue.

Indian forces are Red and Orange.

While the Local forces engage, the PA 6th armoured deployed closer to border can either:

1. Encircle Indian forces from behind through narowal and decimate them.
2. By pass Indian attack at Narowal and enter India before IA 1st armoured reaches border. 8th Armoured can provide back up to PA forces engaging indian CSD armoured and mechanised forces.

The situation seems almost same near Lahore-Amritsar and Kasur axis. Below is an infantry dominated area from both sides with best defence built here.

It depends where PA will move 1st Armoured Division but even keeping it reserve, Indian CSD Armoured and mechanised forces are countered by locally deployed PA Armoured brigades.


The situation becomes a bit tense near Bahawalpur - Sri GangaNagar Axis but it is yet to be seen whether PA 1st Armoured Div will be used to counter IA 33rd Armoured Div in the desert.

At the start of Indian CSD in the desert sector, PA can defend the desert region in the south and if lucky can push Indian forces back but as the war progresses, Indian Forces will accumulate in numbers after 2-3 days of war as IA Armoured and Mechanised forces start pouring in from east and south-east.

Above is the most vulnerable sector. PA will need aviation assets like Gunships and UCAV's as well as PAF cover to defend this region. Pushing into Indian territory here is possible (slim chances) but only if initial losses are kept at minimal and enemy is thrown back. There is no PA back up ARMOURED DIVISION in this area although there are chances that PA may have another Armoured Brigade under V-Corps to work along 25th Mechanised Division.

NASR will most probably be used in this area.

@Ulla @Mentee @Northern

@django

 

[RealNapster]

Pak need a maritime offensive force to capture Mumbai...

Capture Mumbai ?

You can destroy Mumbai, but can not capture it bro. Same goes for Karachi.

 

[.]

IMO Pakistan currently is vulnerable to a massive Indian advance that is if they manage to Mobilize their army with cold start.

There is nothing to stop Indian advances apart from canal defenses in the Lahore sector.
Point defenses apart from Mines like concrete tank blockades should be constructed in the canals to stop any sort of bridge layer by mechanized forces.

Our border with india is too long because we share the biggest one with them hence it is necessary to construct as many defensive fall back lines as possible.
So far I'm aware We don't have any defensive lines apart from canal defensive's because remember cold start is a conventional war to which Pakistan has a nuclear response.

Apart from that I would advice to completely transform Pakistan army armored corps and raise a new corps.
Whatever this XXIX Corps should make the largest tank corps in existence apart from our some 2k tanks that are currently operational.
It is a farce that we operate 3k lesser tanks than our nemesis when they already outnumber us 15/1.

The basic idea of warfare and infantry tactics largely remains the same from ww2,However the best defensive is not knowing when to attack but knowing when to defend and simultaneously attack.
I would advise to construct the new tank corps on this lines of completely offensive doctrine ,Which would mobilize within hours of war and take the fight to the enemy.
Fortunately we have a Great addition of SPG's and Army aviation to assist in breaking enemy lines or the PAA to assist against AT roles,However this is where airforce will have to assist against any counter systems in enemy possession and the air-force itself has its deficiencies .
+1 to army here.

Current LOMAD'S is just introduced for filling gap's in event of such highly explosive offensive doctrines when army needs air cover similar to the Sinai of six day war.
In my opinion we should invest more in mobile air defense systems to assist our defensive and offensive lines.

I would think its a mistake to currently have a very small arsenal of tanks against a numerically superior enemy.
We should invest and evolve our tank corps like this.
1500+ Al khalid /2000 in total to block 3 standards ,Which later should be evolved into block 4 with similar onboard adjustments to the t90ms which in my opinion is the most advanced tank currently in terms of raw operational performance viz a viz modern warfare.

200 to 150 T90ms tanks which were rumored Pakistan is going to field ,(Remains unknown) but prolly in lesser numbers.

1000 oplot M with partnership in ukraine ,We can upgrade the current t80UD to uplot M status or close enough.

1500+ Chinese VT-4 (Modified as a heavy tank for increased performance wrt to PA needs) ,This tank has the potential to be an absolute beast if the Chinese work some good armor magic on it.

So In my plans I would raise a completely new tank corps with huge numbers and diverse forms of tanks ,Supported by ground assets against aerial threats and a completely new Infantry corps specially trained to assist in the early hours.

In my strategy if the Indians want to overwhelm us with brute froce by CS ,Then we shoud be the ones invading fist otherwise we would find ourselves being overwhelmed.

In the current scenario Pakistan is internally and externally vulnerable.
People are frustrated because of financial issues and whatnot ,This is not the same nation that fought 1965 war with unity and nationalism.
In the current scenario we would be losers if India starts to attack us ,specially when their army is mobilized and their air force then its definately doomed and we best be abandoning our ships.
Our military and civilian leadership is wise to realize this ,Hence they pull off the Nuclear card.

Hey Don't come into our territories or its mutual khudqush bambar.
Not to forget in the event of a war ,There will also be a invasion from the west by afghans considering what we have been doing to them and american's by playing the double game.
lol :-/

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Pak Armed forces are fully prepared and in certains way ahead of the curve...

Please, remember, Pak Armed Forces don't make claims...they quietly develop SOPs and when need arises they announce tit-bits...

What is hindden from view is the Drone Forces... Pak will demonstrate this strategic ability sooner than later.

Drones, Drones... in swarms and in formations... this the way Pak will make sure that indians remain in their dusty plains...

Nobody is crossing Pak borders...that time has long gone...save these sick indian trained and sponnsored terrorists..

 

[Vengeful One]

You should watch your own media's reports abouts CHINESE infrastructure along indian border .

PLA’s war wherewithal on the Indo-Tibet frontline must be carted over 1500 kilometers from their logistic hubs at Lhasa and Kashgarh, which in turn must be stocked from central China, a further 2000 kilometers away. The entire logistic connectivity by road, rail, pipeline and air depends upon tenuous lines of communication and static staging yards, all situated over a terrain that is completely open, devoid of local resources and subject to such extreme conditions as it must obtain at 4300 meters of average altitude and sub-zero cold almost throughout the year. Even if China has engineered her transportation capacity to 24000 tons a day and therefore stated to be able to build up 30 divisions, including formations already in place, in 30 days, and sustain this force in war indefinitely, such theoretical calculations may be valid under ‘test conditions’, in practice this will invariably not be so. No doubt, the whole system of induction and sustenance for PLA’s field forces in war would be ripe for interdiction by air power and special operations.

 

[django]

Indian CSD is comfortably countered without NASR too.

Only Armoured and mechanised formations of both countries have been mentioned which will be involved when India launches CSD. Of course infantry can play a significant role along with Air Force. The direction of attack may vary but this is to give an idea of deployment of forces of both countries along the border focusing on IA CSD forces.

Pakistani forces are Yellow and Blue.

Indian forces are Red and Orange.
View attachment 387020
While the Local forces engage, the PA 6th armoured deployed closer to border can either:

1. Encircle Indian forces from behind through narowal and decimate them.
2. By pass Indian attack at Narowal and enter India before IA 1st armoured reaches border. 8th Armoured can provide back up to PA forces engaging indian CSD armoured and mechanised forces.
View attachment 387022

The situation seems almost same near Lahore-Amritsar and Kasur axis. Below is an infantry dominated area from both sides with best defence built here.

View attachment 387024

It depends where PA will move 1st Armoured Division but even keeping it reserve, Indian CSD Armoured and mechanised forces are countered by locally deployed PA Armoured brigades.


The situation becomes a bit tense near Bahawalpur - Sri GangaNagar Axis but it is yet to be seen whether PA 1st Armoured Div will be used to counter IA 33rd Armoured Div in the desert.
View attachment 387025

At the start of Indian CSD in the desert sector, PA can defend the desert region in the south and if lucky can push Indian forces back but as the war progresses, Indian Forces will accumulate in numbers after 2-3 days of war as IA Armoured and Mechanised forces start pouring in from east and south-east.

View attachment 387026

Above is the most vulnerable sector. PA will need aviation assets like Gunships and UCAV's as well as PAF cover to defend this region. Pushing into Indian territory here is possible (slim chances) but only if initial losses are kept at minimal and enemy is thrown back. There is no PA back up ARMOURED DIVISION in this area although there are chances that PA may have another Armoured Brigade under V-Corps to work along 25th Mechanised Division.

NASR will most probably be used in this area.

@Ulla @Mentee @Northern

@django

Excellent assessment as always yaar, a great breakdown and analysis of scenario which may well become a reality.Kudos
@waz @Khafee @Moonlight @The Sandman @Zibago

 

[Readerdefence]

Why always on the PDF troll feast came on and nobody take MODS help
And please MODS can you either lock down or bann the trolls immediately
Thx in advance

 

[The Sandman]

Indian CSD is comfortably countered without NASR too.

Only Armoured and mechanised formations of both countries have been mentioned which will be involved when India launches CSD. Of course infantry can play a significant role along with Air Force. The direction of attack may vary but this is to give an idea of deployment of forces of both countries along the border focusing on IA CSD forces.

Pakistani forces are Yellow and Blue.

Indian forces are Red and Orange.
View attachment 387020
While the Local forces engage, the PA 6th armoured deployed closer to border can either:

1. Encircle Indian forces from behind through narowal and decimate them.
2. By pass Indian attack at Narowal and enter India before IA 1st armoured reaches border. 8th Armoured can provide back up to PA forces engaging indian CSD armoured and mechanised forces.
View attachment 387022

The situation seems almost same near Lahore-Amritsar and Kasur axis. Below is an infantry dominated area from both sides with best defence built here.

View attachment 387024

It depends where PA will move 1st Armoured Division but even keeping it reserve, Indian CSD Armoured and mechanised forces are countered by locally deployed PA Armoured brigades.


The situation becomes a bit tense near Bahawalpur - Sri GangaNagar Axis but it is yet to be seen whether PA 1st Armoured Div will be used to counter IA 33rd Armoured Div in the desert.
View attachment 387025

At the start of Indian CSD in the desert sector, PA can defend the desert region in the south and if lucky can push Indian forces back but as the war progresses, Indian Forces will accumulate in numbers after 2-3 days of war as IA Armoured and Mechanised forces start pouring in from east and south-east.

View attachment 387026

Above is the most vulnerable sector. PA will need aviation assets like Gunships and UCAV's as well as PAF cover to defend this region. Pushing into Indian territory here is possible (slim chances) but only if initial losses are kept at minimal and enemy is thrown back. There is no PA back up ARMOURED DIVISION in this area although there are chances that PA may have another Armoured Brigade under V-Corps to work along 25th Mechanised Division.

NASR will most probably be used in this area.

@Ulla @Mentee @Northern

@django

An excellent analysis but what about infantry? i mean IA outnumbers us in infantry? you said 6th armoured div can encircle indian forces but they obviously gonna have massive amounts of infantry covering their flanks what if our 6th armoured gets encircled?

Excellent assessment as always yaar, a great breakdown and analysis of scenario which may well become a reality.Kudos
@waz @Khafee @Moonlight @The Sandman @Zibago

Indeed.

 

[Basel]

Pak need a maritime offensive force to capture Mumbai...

Pakistan do have marines (& they are expending) but they are not meant to do what you said.

 

[Dazzler]

80% of India's armour, 75% artillery is deployed on Pakistan front.

You should realize that post of yours made 1 billion Chinese very happy.

Pakistan should never go on the offensive into India. You'll lose half your forces and then your country.
Better to keep most of your forces and most of your country by being defensive.

A panic post at best. prove your narrative newbie.

 

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

PLA’s war wherewithal on the Indo-Tibet frontline must be carted over 1500 kilometers from their logistic hubs at Lhasa and Kashgarh, which in turn must be stocked from central China, a further 2000 kilometers away. The entire logistic connectivity by road, rail, pipeline and air depends upon tenuous lines of communication and static staging yards, all situated over a terrain that is completely open, devoid of local resources and subject to such extreme conditions as it must obtain at 4300 meters of average altitude and sub-zero cold almost throughout the year. Even if China has engineered her transportation capacity to 24000 tons a day and therefore stated to be able to build up 30 divisions, including formations already in place, in 30 days, and sustain this force in war indefinitely, such theoretical calculations may be valid under ‘test conditions’, in practice this will invariably not be so. No doubt, the whole system of induction and sustenance for PLA’s field forces in war would be ripe for interdiction by air power and special operations.

https://www.google.com.pk/amp/m.eco...an-border-report/amp_articleshow/52250127.cms

https://www.google.com.pk/amp/india...ops-near-indian-border-pentagon-2799965/lite/

https://www.google.com.pk/amp/www.h...entagon/story-MtEoUiZXRS2R5lKNPx3oyM_amp.html

http://fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/war/india_-_pakistan/news.php?q=1257446987

 

[Signalian]

An excellent analysis but what about infantry? i mean IA outnumbers us in infantry? you said 6th armoured div can encircle indian forces but they obviously gonna have massive amounts of infantry covering their flanks what if our 6th armoured gets encircled?

Indeed.

Indian CSD involves Armoured forces with Tanks (T-90, T-72 etc) and mechanised infantry with IFV's (BMP-2's), that's why I just presented an armoured related scenario.
Indian Army outnumbers Pakistan Army in most of the things. The problem with Indian Army deployment is its distance from the borders (except Kashmir), Pakistan has most of its forces closer to the border. Pakistani Infantry divisions can also check Indian armoured advance but the idea was to display that Pakistan is capable of stopping Indian CSD through independent armoured brigade groups, even in the absence of NASR, Gunships and regular Infantry Divisions or PAF support.

6th Infantry cannot get encircled in any way, it enjoys a very strong position. There are already two infantry Divisions in Sialkot (8th and 15th Infantry Divisions) which can protect its flanks and most importantly, 6th Armoured Division is accompanied by 17th Infantry Division and 37th Infantry Division which are dedicated to:
1. Provide Infantry support
2. Capture area exploited by 6th Armoured Div.

The problem is for 1st Armoured Division because it can be shifted either towards south of Lahore or further towards Southern Punjab and its Infantry support Divisions (14th and 40th Infantry Divisions) are already defending Okara south towards Bahawalnagar axis. So one of the two infantry Divisions (14th or 40th ID) cannot be moved from Okara region otherwise it presents a huge gap. 1st Armoured will have just one Infantry Division for its support and still its not clear where 1st Armoured Div will be deployed in war.

 

[ziaulislam]

in my opinion get a very strong air force
avoid enemy getting air superiority in your home truff
abolish enemy with precision guided cluster bombs and precision guided short range anti tank weapons

if any Libyan war and iraq war shows that small air strike with precision guided ammunition can destroy enemies tanks in dozens

so if I have to chose between very strong and expensive tanks and good air force, i wouldn't even think twice

The whole cold start doctrine will be based upon, abolishing and limiting PAF within first few hours followed by a rapid thrust of armored cores under IAF umbrella

The idea that in full scale war or limited cold start Indian army will be involved first without IAF strikes is completely flawed

PAF needs more teeth and more precision guided ammunition including clusters, also it needs a dedicated anti tank system/missle

 

[footmarks]

Cold start is an counter-offensive strategy. For all the hype and over analysis over it, it's just the operational preparedness SOP, that is, how quickly Indian armed forces can mobilize and go on offensive in full strength to deny the opponent any first mover advantage (as happened in Kargil).

After that, it suits India to prolong the war for as long as possible, given the poor economic ability of pakistan to sustain a full fledged war for more than 15 days.