Pakistan needs to Accelerate Development of newer Blocks of JF-17 Thunder

[EpiiC]

Modern HMD/S with HOBS were just not available. The A-Darter just entered full-scale production for South Africa in late 2015/early 2016. As for HMD/S, what are Pakistan's options? The Chinese don't have a marketable product yet, only Thales and BAE are left, and neither is an easy avenue. The Tejas uses Elbit's DASH and Rafael's Python 5, neither of which are available to the PAF (due to Pakistan's non-ties with Israel).

Currently, the PAF could try to pick up one of the Thales TopOwl-F or BAE Striker II and integrate it to the A-Darter. Or it can wait for China. Or it could try get and get Denel to buy and re-sell the Elbit DASH or Targo in-exchange for buying a ton of A-Darters.

PAF should have gone for NG Gripen E an excellent plane, easy to maintain, low costs, allowing pilots to be highly trained and large numbers to overwhelm F-35!

He is business man could sell Ivanka if the offer was good.
Mater is do we still need sanctioned prone birds or we have better options with China and Russia.

Why not NG Gripen E?

Jf 17 within 5 years will be on par with current F 16s we have.

Firstly we don't have good F16 its the older block and these days those old f16s are obsolete, JF17 is also not good, we should have gone with NG Gripen E a much better value for money and performance.

Our slow production rate is due to China who tricks us buy not inducting JF 17 into their services since J 10 and jf 17 performance is quite comparable but due to this prices goes high for JF 17.

We should not be getting comparable planes to f16, we need plane with some close to stealth features, good radar, good missiles, good sensors, cheap to operate.. My vote goes to NG Gripen E.

 

[X-Service Man]

PAF should have gone for NG Gripen E an excellent plane, easy to maintain, low costs, allowing pilots to be highly trained and large numbers to overwhelm F-35!



Why not NG Gripen E?


Firstly we don't have good F16 its the older block and these days those old f16s are obsolete, JF17 is also not good, we should have gone with NG Gripen E a much better value for money and performance.

We should not be getting comparable planes to f16, we need plane with some close to stealth features, good radar, good missiles, good sensors, cheap to operate.. My vote goes to NG Gripen E.

Grippen is also sanctioned prone bird with many parts imported and even minis the radar no more good than JF-17.

 

[EpiiC]

Grippen is also sanctioned prone bird with many parts imported and even minis the radar no more good than JF-17.

Has a radar cross section of 0.05m2 which is very good, very good sensors, top class data link, and many more features.. JF-17 radar cross section is 5m2?

 

[X-Service Man]

Has a radar cross section of 0.05m2 which is very good, very good sensors, top class data link, and many more features.. JF-17 radar cross section is 5m2?

We can't go for Grippin just over radar even it could prove another F16 for us with many sanctions.
Just make a deal buy Raven for JF17 which I believe prove to be best flying machine ever built in its category.

 

[EpiiC]

We can't go for Grippin just over radar even it could prove another F16 for us with many sanctions.
Just make a deal buy Raven for JF17 which I believe prove to be best flying machine ever built in its category.

#4 JAS 39E/F NG Gripen: (SWEDEN)
-HMD: (Cobra)
-AESA Radar: (Raven ES-05 detection range 1m2 150 km and aerial targets >14 targets)
-Weapons: (1× 27 mm BK-27 120 rounds, 2x IRIS-T 12 km, and 10x Meteor 100 km or 10x AIM-120C7 50-80 km)
-Avionics: (Skyward-G is an advanced infrared search and track (IRST), BOL is a high capacity dispenser for chaff and flare, BOP/B chaff, flare and expendable decoys, EWS39 is a modular integrated Electronic Warfare, Modular Reconnaissance Pod System (MRPS), Digital Joint Reconnaissance Pod (DJRP), and BOW-21 is a modular radar warning receiver)
-Turbofan Engine: (1 × F414-GE-39E, Mach 2 and Super cruise 1.2)
-Performance: (Maximum Range: 3,250 km, Ferry Range: 4,000 km, RCS: 0.05 square meter, Service Ceiling: 50,000 ft, Combat Radius: 1,300 km, Rate of Climb: 50,000 ft, Thrust/weight: 1.06, and Max Maneuvering Load Factor: +9 g)

China don't have good tech yet. NG Gripen is worth it.

 

[X-Service Man]

#4 JAS 39E/F NG Gripen: (SWEDEN)
-HMD: (Cobra)
-AESA Radar: (Raven ES-05 detection range 1m2 150 km and aerial targets >14 targets)
-Weapons: (1× 27 mm BK-27 120 rounds, 2x IRIS-T 12 km, and 10x Meteor 100 km or 10x AIM-120C7 50-80 km)
-Avionics: (Skyward-G is an advanced infrared search and track (IRST), BOL is a high capacity dispenser for chaff and flare, BOP/B chaff, flare and expendable decoys, EWS39 is a modular integrated Electronic Warfare, Modular Reconnaissance Pod System (MRPS), Digital Joint Reconnaissance Pod (DJRP), and BOW-21 is a modular radar warning receiver)
-Turbofan Engine: (1 × F414-GE-39E, Mach 2 and Super cruise 1.2)
-Performance: (Maximum Range: 3,250 km, Ferry Range: 4,000 km, RCS: 0.05 square meter, Service Ceiling: 50,000 ft, Combat Radius: 1,300 km, Rate of Climb: 50,000 ft, Thrust/weight: 1.06, and Max Maneuvering Load Factor: +9 g)

China don't have good tech yet. NG Gripen is worth it.

Still 4 th gen fighter with big issues and clearance required by many countries.

In comparison to all JF 17 is lot better just need Aesa radar.

 

[EpiiC]

Still 4 th gen fighter with big issues and clearance required by many countries.

In comparison to all JF 17 is lot better just need Aesa radar.

India will have air superiority if they get NG Gripen before us... 4++ like Typhoon, Rafale.

 

[X-Service Man]

India will have air superiority if they get NG Gripen before us... 4++ like Typhoon, Rafale.

Don't even compare it with above said jets. I am not a teen age served in forces can't have enough time to make u understand a simple thing.
Tejas, JF17 and Grippen falls under one league... Cheap, more in quantity and flow in induction to fill the gap between low end to high end fighters. Not meant to be superior to any one but for defence only.
JF 17 is a success in this role while Tejas was /is being neglected by kickbacks from Indian forces.
While Grippen was build to export again failed to attract customers since developing countries like Pakistan and India starts their own low end backbone fighter programmes.

My apologies from further discussion.

Grippen is no more good than Tejas mk2. If India selects Grippen then it because of kickbacks not because of superiority.

Tamam Shud.

 

[Jammer]

Hi,

The F22 has YET to be integrated with the Aim 9X missile---.

FYI:
https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/07/f-22-gets-the-aim9x-missile/

 

[MastanKhan]

FYI:
https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/07/f-22-gets-the-aim9x-missile/

It took the Air Force more than a decade to equip the Raptor with the AIM-9X because of the F-22’s obtuse avionics architecture—which is exceptionally difficult to upgrade. Even this recent addition of the AIM-9X is a jury-rigged interim measure called Update 5, which also includes an automatic ground collision avoidance system.

While the new software upgrade allows Raptor pilots to take advantage of the performance of the new missile, the jet’s targeting display will not show the correct symbology for the AIM-9X. Instead, the weapon will have the same displays as the current AIM-9M and pilots will have to compensate for the difference.

http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/story/1680947-f-22-raptor-now-armed-with-aim-9x-missile

The comments at the end of the above link are priceless---give out a lot more info.

 

[The Accountant]

Gripp

#4 JAS 39E/F NG Gripen: (SWEDEN)
-HMD: (Cobra)
-AESA Radar: (Raven ES-05 detection range 1m2 150 km and aerial targets >14 targets)
-Weapons: (1× 27 mm BK-27 120 rounds, 2x IRIS-T 12 km, and 10x Meteor 100 km or 10x AIM-120C7 50-80 km)
-Avionics: (Skyward-G is an advanced infrared search and track (IRST), BOL is a high capacity dispenser for chaff and flare, BOP/B chaff, flare and expendable decoys, EWS39 is a modular integrated Electronic Warfare, Modular Reconnaissance Pod System (MRPS), Digital Joint Reconnaissance Pod (DJRP), and BOW-21 is a modular radar warning receiver)
-Turbofan Engine: (1 × F414-GE-39E, Mach 2 and Super cruise 1.2)
-Performance: (Maximum Range: 3,250 km, Ferry Range: 4,000 km, RCS: 0.05 square meter, Service Ceiling: 50,000 ft, Combat Radius: 1,300 km, Rate of Climb: 50,000 ft, Thrust/weight: 1.06, and Max Maneuvering Load Factor: +9 g)

China don't have good tech yet. NG Gripen is worth it.

Grippen e/f not yet inducted so dont compare it with thunder blk 2 ... we will compare it with thunder blk 3 which is already expected to get all such goodies i.e. IRST, IFR,AESA, HMD, HOBS, targetting pod and more powerful engine ... speed of thunder cannot compete with grippen as it is limited by design considerations ...

You should understand that in modern warefare its not just platform but integration of various components ... main advantage of thunder over any other aircraft from third party is its ablity to communicate with link 17 in real time ... in modern warfare command and control structure is key ... information sharing and data fusion is the key which can only be achieved via investing in jf17 ... we have to invest time and resources so that we can integrate our future platforms into exiting system by using experience gained from thunder ...

 

[Jammer]

It took the Air Force more than a decade to equip the Raptor with the AIM-9X because of the F-22’s obtuse avionics architecture—which is exceptionally difficult to upgrade. Even this recent addition of the AIM-9X is a jury-rigged interim measure called Update 5, which also includes an automatic ground collision avoidance system.

While the new software upgrade allows Raptor pilots to take advantage of the performance of the new missile, the jet’s targeting display will not show the correct symbology for the AIM-9X. Instead, the weapon will have the same displays as the current AIM-9M and pilots will have to compensate for the difference.

http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/story/1680947-f-22-raptor-now-armed-with-aim-9x-missile

The comments at the end of the above link are priceless---give out a lot more info.

The US Air Force is claiming it is integrated so I am not arguing with them, I was going with your statement "Hi,
The F22 has YET to be integrated with the Aim 9X missile---.", however like your article states it has not fully achieved its full potential on the jet. This is apparently getting solved this year or by 2018. This is a good article very informative:
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-its-sad-that-the-f-22-just-fired-its-first-guided-a-1704889474

 

[MastanKhan]

The US Air Force is claiming it is integrated so I am not arguing with them, I was going with your statement "Hi,
The F22 has YET to be integrated with the Aim 9X missile---.", however like your article states it has not fully achieved its full potential on the jet. This is apparently getting solved this year or by 2018. This is a good article very informative:
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-its-sad-that-the-f-22-just-fired-its-first-guided-a-1704889474

Hi,

Actually it was my mistake----I did not clarify it properly in my initial post---. After posting I realized that I had missed out on something---but could not put my finger on it till you responded---.

And then I remembered---this issue was brought in front of congress as well and the members were explained what had happened.

 

[Basel]

India will have air superiority if they get NG Gripen before us... 4++ like Typhoon, Rafale.

Please increase your knowledge, IAF already have edge in terms of numbers and quality but PAF has enough capability to tackle them. MKI is beast in air to air and if PAF can handle that then Gripen or any single engine bird of IAF can be taken care of, also Sweden will not sale fighter jets to Pakistan, first convince them to sale birds to Pakistan then talk further what to do.

 

[CriticalThought]

THIS ARTICLE WILL HELP EXPLAIN the limitations of JF17 in its current block 2 configuration

ITR ,STR , HMD & HIGH OFF BORE SIGHT MISSILES:

This for all those who are of the opinion that F16 has better turn rate and hence will win a dog fight. This downright ignorance.

Delta wing jet fighters gave better Instantaneous Turn Rate (ITR) and poor Sustained Turn Rate (STR) , when compared with swept wing fighters like F16 (strictly speaking F16 is a cropped delta design) . Delta wing fighters also have better supersonic maneuverability than swept wing fighters.

Now combining better ITR , Helmet mounted display , which enables look down - shoot down capability , pilot just needs to point the nose of the aircaft in the general direction of the enemy fighter , lock on to it and launch his High offbore sight missiles like R73 , which allow for off bore sight upto 60 degrees. So the fighter need not turn in a sustained manner to lock on to the enemy fighter and cannons are the last resort only after everything else fails to work as it was supposed to.

This allows a delta wing fighters like Mirage 2000 & TEJAS to have an upper hand over F16 in dog fights, especially when mounting combat air patrols.

The article was comparing F16 with delta Fighters armed with HMD/HOBS.

The THEORY applies to JF17 as well.

IN A DOG FIGHT Thunders will struggle against DELTA/HMD/HOBS combo

Having said that MAYBE the JF17 idea concept is standoff strike missions & BVR engagement only.




I DID NOT SAY USA have a BVR missle with range 200km

I SAID F22 raptor with its HUGE APG77 AESA radar will see you from 200km .

Coming back to topic the THUNDER limitations ?

You are a misinformed individual quoting a misinformed article. And you haven't given any reference for your article. If Delta's were so perfect, the latest F-16 vipers would have gone for them.

All the advantages described in your article have counters to them. In any fight between F-16 and Delta's of the same technical era, the outcome would be decided by pilot skill. A good F-16 pilot will know the strengths and weaknesses of the enemy.

High surface area Delta wings increase the drag faced by the aircraft. In addition to low sustained rate of turn, they cause the plane to bleed energy and lose altitude.

F-16 with HOBS integrated with HMD/S cancels the high instantaneous turn rate advantage.

Furthermore, an F-16 pilot would maintain a wide angle of attack (lag behind) thus further negating the instantaneous advantage.

The F-16s maneuverability is simply unsurpassed. The Turks, even after losing two falcons to the Greek Mirage 2Ks, still go with the F-16.

Please avoid spreading misinformation on the forum.