Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[Tank131]

Listen the reality is that the HQ-16 is a derivative of the Buk missile, and for all the development, making it a much more modern system it still faces some significant limitations. It is a large and heavy missile compared to its competitors. It has a shorter range compared to its competitors. It is SARH (like ESSM block 1) whereas some of its more modern competitors are ARH.

The CAMM-ER is a smaller, lighter more agile weapon which has longer range and can be quad packed with the right launch system (Sylver A-50 or Mk-41). It is ARH. We cannot say that these systems are equal. While CAMM-ER is not specifically designed for smaller ships, it is more suitable for smaller ships given its smaller and lighter frame. But it is a superior weapon in every category.

 

[aliaselin]

Listen the reality is that the HQ-16 is a derivative of the Buk missile, and for all the development, making it a much more modern system it still faces some significant limitations. It is a large and heavy missile compared to its competitors. It has a shorter range compared to its competitors. It is SARH (like ESSM block 1) whereas some of its more modern competitors are ARH.

The CAMM-ER is a smaller, lighter more agile weapon which has longer range and can be quad packed with the right launch system (Sylver A-50 or Mk-41). It is ARH. We cannot say that these systems are equal. While CAMM-ER is not specifically designed for smaller ships, it is more suitable for smaller ships given its smaller and lighter frame. But it is a superior weapon in every category.

The reality is HQ-16 is an integrated design, with larger flying envelope than the booster based technical route such as CAMM-ER. Only second tier country such as British and France love this kind of technical route because it is cheap and easier to develop, while China and US never use it in short range SAM. Look our newly developed exported SAM such as FM-3000 and LY70 - land-based FM-3000 has a dynamic range of only 30km but with anti-missile range of 20 km, for comparison， Aster15 has the same dynamic range but only 15 km range to target missile.
China also has this kind of design with booster to elongate the range which makes the data looks beautiful but less competitive in reality sold by NORINCO, but it has never been adopted by any PLA units. And it is only for export

 

[luciferdd]

The reality is HQ-16 is an integrated design, with larger flying envelope than the booster based technical route such as CAMM-ER. Only second tier country such as British and France love this kind of technical route because it is cheap and easier to develop, while China and US never use it in short range SAM. Look our newly developed exported SAM such as FM-3000 and LY70 - land-based FM-3000 has a dynamic range of only 30km but with anti-missile range of 20 km, for comparison， Aster15 has the same dynamic range but only 15 km range to target missile.
China also has this kind of design with booster to elongate the range which makes the data looks beautiful but less competitive in reality sold by NORINCO, but it has never been adopted by any PLA units. And it is only for export

It depends on what kind of threat you will face.CAMM-ER or ESSM is good enough for now,but they will be eliminated by hypersonic anti-ship missiles like Russian's 3M22(Zircon) in the furture(within 10 years).In fact CHINA needs a new generation high speed(＞6MA ) medium range(＞100KM) anti-air missile to replace the old HQ-16s too.

 

[TOPGUN]

HQ-16 is bigger because it’s old and outdated, Albatros wasn’t built for smaller ships, it’s just newer and better. It has longer range, faster speeds and more accuracy.

The contact signed was for 4, all 4 were built in China. Pakistan got ToT for Babur class instead, 2 of those were built in Turkey, the other 2 are being built here.

But wasn't there an option for 2 more Type054's ?

 

[iLION12345_1]

But wasn't there an option for 2 more Type054's ?

There is an option for 2-4 more that can be availed after the first 4 are delivered, wether PN will go for it remains to be seen. I’d rather they order more Jinnah class instead, or save the money for another project, given that the surface fleet is already expanding rapidly.

 

[araz]

There is an option for 2-4 more that can be availed after the first 4 are delivered, wether PN will go for it remains to be seen. I’d rather they order more Jinnah class instead, or save the money for another project, given that the surface fleet is already expanding rapidly.

I think with Jinnah class coming online PN will concentrate its resources on that project. With the current development projections PN will have its hands full till well into 2028-30 time frame with manpower and other developments. Unless somehow money starts growing on trees we will ne8ther have the finances nor the man power to do any more than what has been planned till 2030.
My humble opinion take it for what it is worth.
I also think once the Jinnah class is inducted the PN will get at least 3 destroyers.

A

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Our Type 054AP FFG are being equipped with YJ-12 AShM.

 

[khanasifm]

 

[RealNapster]

There is an option for 2-4 more that can be availed after the first 4 are delivered, wether PN will go for it remains to be seen. I’d rather they order more Jinnah class instead, or save the money for another project, given that the surface fleet is already expanding rapidly.

What if we can order 4 more with the addition of latest Chinese Quad-pack 32 cell Vls ? 16 for Air defence we will have 64 missiles while 16 for anti-ship ? Is it workable in this hull and tonnage ?

 

[iLION12345_1]

What if we can order 4 more with the addition of latest Chinese Quad-pack 32 cell Vls ? 16 for Air defence we will have 64 missiles while 16 for anti-ship ? Is it workable in this hull and tonnage ?

Which VLS are you talking about? HQ-9 cannot fit on these ships, it only fits on the larger destroyers.
the Old HQ-16A is currently the only VLS available for these.

 

[RealNapster]

Which VLS are you talking about? HQ-9 cannot fit on these ships, it only fits on the larger destroyers.
the Old HQ-16A is currently the only VLS available for these.

No body is talking about HQ-9. I am talking about quad pack Vls for Hq-16 missiles or any other SAM.


The HT-1E was loaded with missiles including the CM-103 long-range supersonic cruise missile, HHQ-9E long-range air defense missile, CM-802B subsonic missile, and FM-3000N air defense missile at the CASIC exhibition hall at the air show. While bigger missiles such as the CM-103 and HHQ-9E require their own vertical launch cell, the same cell may hold up to four smaller missiles such as the FM-3000N.

China Unveils a New Ship-based Vertical Launch System (VLS) with a Quad-pack Cell - Naval Post- Naval News and Information

China unveiled its first type of made-for-export ship-borne vertical launch system at the ongoing Airshow China 2021. The VLS' quad-pack launch cells can load up to four missiles instead of just one, which is one of its most important features.

navalpost.com

 

[iLION12345_1]

No body is talking about HQ-9. I am talking about quad pack Vls for Hq-16 missiles or any other SAM.


The HT-1E was loaded with missiles including the CM-103 long-range supersonic cruise missile, HHQ-9E long-range air defense missile, CM-802B subsonic missile, and FM-3000N air defense missile at the CASIC exhibition hall at the air show. While bigger missiles such as the CM-103 and HHQ-9E require their own vertical launch cell, the same cell may hold up to four smaller missiles such as the FM-3000N.

China Unveils a New Ship-based Vertical Launch System (VLS) with a Quad-pack Cell - Naval Post- Naval News and Information

China unveiled its first type of made-for-export ship-borne vertical launch system at the ongoing Airshow China 2021. The VLS' quad-pack launch cells can load up to four missiles instead of just one, which is one of its most important features.

navalpost.com

HQ-16A is too big to be quad packed, it’s an old missile. China is working on its replacement, HQ-16C.

Replacing the VLS system entirely (which will require design and testing work as the VLS system isn’t meant for These frigates) and then buying new missiles for it will be a very costly endeavor, which imo will kind of ruin the point of these ships; they’re meant to be lower cost acquisitions when compared to the Babur and Jinnah class.
The thinking here is, if China does such a thing first, then we can just ask them to put the system in our ships too, instead of asking them to do it for our ships first, in which were bearing extra cost, and that’s before considering wether this is even possible with the 054A design, in which case I’m not the best judge because I don’t know dimensions and such for most of these systems, someone else can answer that better.

 

[CombatSurgeon]

HQ-16A is too big to be quad packed, it’s an old missile. China is working on its replacement, HQ-16C.

Replacing the VLS system entirely (which will require design and testing work as the VLS system isn’t meant for These frigates) and then buying new missiles for it will be a very costly endeavor, which imo will kind of ruin the point of these ships; they’re meant to be lower cost acquisitions when compared to the Babur and Jinnah class.
The thinking here is, if China does such a thing first, then we can just ask them to put the system in our ships too, instead of asking them to do it for our ships first, in which were bearing extra cost, and that’s before considering whether this is even possible with the 054A design, in which case I’m not the best judge because I don’t know dimensions and such for most of these systems, someone else can answer that better.

You're right. I don't understand what our people want to achieve with a 350 million USD budget per ship. What we're getting is good enough in the form of current HQ-16. Wishing for exotic things in quad packs is a dream. An Aster 30 system for a single vessel would cost around 300mil USD if we order 32 primary shots plus 64 reloads. The complete ship would be like 700 mil USD. On the other hand, to be honest, Aster 30 is a beauty. Only 450 kg mass with a range in excess of 100 km! HQ-16 is like close to 700 kg with a slant range of 40km, though both are from the 1980s.

 

[iLION12345_1]

You're right. I don't understand what our people want to achieve with a 350 million USD budget per ship. What we're getting is good enough in the form of current HQ-16. Wishing for exotic things in quad packs is a dream. An Aster 30 system for a single vessel would cost around 300mil USD if we order 32 primary shots plus 64 reloads. The complete ship would be like 700 mil USD. On the other hand, to be honest, Aster 30 is a beauty. Only 450 kg mass with a range in excess of 100 km! HQ-16 is like close to 700 kg with a slant range of 40km, though both are from the 1980s.

The difference in capability is then the difference in price and model, the Version of aster you’d buy now with the better specs obviously isn’t the one from the 80s. The Chinese were in no hurry to upgrade the HQ-16s naval variant (they already made a modern ground-launched variant) because to them it wasn’t that important, rather they put the money in making the HQ-9s naval launched variant better, which is more important to them.

So yes, for its price, the 054A with the HQ-16A are good ships. They can always be upgraded later whenever China finishes work on the HQ-16C. The Babur class despite being 1200 tons lighter apparently cost us nearly 100 million USD more per ship, because we payed for the redesign, ToT and are equipping it with more modern things like the CAMM-ER/ALBATROSS-NG. Also, now that an Italian package is available for the ASTER-30P, I wouldn’t put it out of the race to be the SAM system for the Jinnah class or the next LRSAM system for the PAF.

 

[CombatSurgeon]

The difference in capability is then the difference in price and model, the Version of aster you’d buy now with the better specs obviously isn’t the one from the 80s. The Chinese were in no hurry to upgrade the HQ-16s naval variant (they already made a modern ground-launched variant) because to them it wasn’t that important, rather they put the money in making the HQ-9s naval launched variant better, which is more important to them.

So yes, for its price, the 054A with the HQ-16A are good ships. They can always be upgraded later whenever China finishes work on the HQ-16C. The Babur class despite being 1200 tons lighter apparently cost us nearly 100 million USD more per ship, because we payed for the redesign, ToT and are equipping it with more modern things like the CAMM-ER/ALBATROSS-NG. Also, now that an Italian package is available for the ASTER-30P, I wouldn’t put it out of the race to be the SAM system for the Jinnah class or the next LRSAM system for the PAF.

Another interesting thing would be the choice of radar with the Albatross NG. Instead of going for the originally suggested PESA radar i.e SMART-S, PN should mate it with the Kronos radar. It's a top-tier AESA MFR. Price difference would be like 5-7 million USD per package.