Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[syed_yusuf]

Question is, what purpose will they serve. If the coast is all that is going to be protected, you don't need capital sea control warships.

PN seems confused about what it wants to do. It needs to focus on a2d but then seems to want to go for bigger vessels, which in war will mean they want to try to cut of IN from the Gulf, which we all know will not happen, so it seems PN is investing on a fantasy rather than the reality of a solid a2d.

it will be a good power projection and reach beyond northern Arabin sea down south till malaca. 6 of them with upgrades and modified VLS system will serve PN well for next 2 decades or more. will challenge IN and keep them at bay for long time. while 8 frigates and 4 corvettes will provide much-needed balance near shore. OPV's can conduct low-intensity patrols. remember it is not just IN but various other supporting countries that are eyeing sea disruption directly or indirectly aimed at Pakistan. 6 of these ships will add a lost of punch and really heavy punch to PN with near unparallel surface destroyer capability in the region sans USN

 

[araz]

it will be a good power projection and reach beyond northern Arabin sea down south till malaca. 6 of them with upgrades and modified VLS system will serve PN well for next 2 decades or more. will challenge IN and keep them at bay for long time. while 8 frigates and 4 corvettes will provide much-needed balance near shore. OPV's can conduct low-intensity patrols. remember it is not just IN but various other supporting countries that are eyeing sea disruption directly or indirectly aimed at Pakistan. 6 of these ships will add a lost of punch and really heavy punch to PN with near unparallel surface destroyer capability in the region sans USN

We neither have the money to run nor the trained personnel. Why do we need 6 type 52s? It is an overkill for our needs. I think we have to be wise and think asymmetrical and out of the box to achieve our ends in an Indo Pak exchange ln the sea. Achieving or even trying to achieve parity would bankrupt us.
A

 

[syed_yusuf]

We neither have the money to run nor the trained personnel. Why do we need 6 type 52s? It is an overkill for our needs. I think we have to be wise and think asymmetrical and out of the box to achieve our ends in an Indo Pak exchange ln the sea. Achieving or even trying to achieve parity would bankrupt us.
A

parity is foolish, but power projection is what needed in the Indian ocean and to safeguard our commitments.

 

[araz]

parity is foolish, but power projection is what needed in the Indian ocean and to safeguard our commitments.

I dont think we are quite there yet. We need to sort out our economy thereby sorting out the country. Once revenues flow in there will be natural tendency towards progression in all the fields. Defence and meritme defence will then factor in and we will need a force to protect our lines of communication and ingress of mterial. Without a sound economy there may not be much left to defend.
A

 

[syed_yusuf]

I dontcthink we are quite there yet. We need to sort out our economy thereby sorting out the country. Once revenues flow in there will be natural tendency towards progression in all the fields. Defence and meritme defence will then factor in and we will needa force to protect our lines of communication and ingress of mterial. Without a sound economy there may not be much left to defend.
A

Yes I agree

Next 6 months will tell us the direction

 

[araz]

Yes I agree

Next 6 months will tell us the direction

6 months !!! It will take at least 3 yrs for a clear and cohesove picture to emerge and 10 yrs before Pakistan shows signs of recovery. The problem again is inherent weaknesses in the infrastructure. This will take time and needs basic directional changes which will take time to organize and institute. Stable and progressive governance and changes to incorporate into the psyche of the beaurocracy and polity plus the masses. This is what takes time. Fiscal situation will begin to stabilize in 2-3 yrs but we have a long way to go. Also remember there are outside hands trying to keep us unstable and will need to be dealt with.
A

 

[Kamil_baku]

Janab Type 52 D is not needed for Air Defense systems. Type 52 D along with Air Defense systems have VLS for long Range Cruise Missiles. Through Type 52 D we can unleash hell upon Indian cities like Chennai and Banglaru and Hyderabad and all other Indian Cities. We having Air Defense ships won't stop Indian Navy from launching aggressive war on us but when India will know that our Destroyers and Frigates will rain down the several cruise Missiles on their cities only that would stop India at bay. No Air Defense system can stop more than 5 to 6 Cruise Missile at one time and India will launch at least 30 to 40 at once.

Actually, i read it and i dont agree with you!

Lets say there are 30-40 brahmos coming to you! Brahmos can go 120 km with sea skimming mode. The reason you need layered air defense is to shoot down the aircraft before lunching it.

Lets say we shoot some but 30-40 passed and coming to as.
You are right that single warship cannot stop it as ships see them(without awacs aircrafts which Pakistan doesn’t have) 30km far from ship and its speed is 1 km per second(brahmos) and ship cannot fire 30 missiles for each second as it needs more time..
But, with network enabled warfare, you can engage them with different ships..

Also, ciws like Phalanx cannot do anything against Brahmos as it has only a second to react(1.5 km engagement range). Thats why Turkey put rim ciws on corvetes(10 km range) also 76mm work as ciws too.

On the other hand, Brahmos use radar to lock on target but Milgem corvette is very stealth with strong EW system which will be hard to shoot for Brahmos. Thats why latest antiship missiles only use passive thermal head instead of radar..
My saying is you still can stop those missiles. Thats why ships travel together like a battle group.

 

[Armchair]

Yes I agree

Next 6 months will tell us the direction

Thanks Syed and Araz for a great discussion. I think, Pakistan needs:

1. A solid a2d
2. Some offensive capacity for deterrence and strategic defense

It will be hard for Pakistan to afford more than this.

Pakistan should not try to go toe-to-toe with India in trying to maintain hegemony over the Indian ocean or up till the Straits of Malacca. Imagine even with 6 Type 52s, in the case of war, going for a stroll in the Indian Ocean and towards the Straits of Malacca. It would be ambushed, overwhelmed with massive losses, and will not, even if not ambushed, serve any meaningful purpose.

Now, China would want Pakistan to keep the CPEC open in a serious escalation either with India or with the US. Now I see the purpose of the 054As. Which are just about right to maintain SLOCs to the Gulf, and perhaps a few 052s could also help achieve this. This then is the purpose of the 054A purchases, and likely the purpose of an additional 6 such ships.

Now it all makes sense.

Other countries that could bother Pakistan - not sure perhaps Iran or Israel. Iran may try to generally shut down the Gulf during a conflict, well, a very likely conflict with the Trump administration, who will attack Iran, its only a matter of time perhaps. The other such indirect / direct threat is Israel.

But both these cases do not warrant a force of 6 052Cs. At best they deserve some Ada Class. Well, at least ones with proper air defense, not the ridiculous ones being purchased - 2400 ton ship costing 250 million USD defended by a single CIWS / PDMS.

 

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

without awacs aircrafts which Pakistan doesn’t have)

A little correction.Pakistan has eight awacs aircraft . 4 saab2000 and 4 zdk 03 .

 

[Super Falcon]

We lost our atlantique in 99 middle of sea because we dont have ships with good air defence system to cover our air missions pn should buy more bigger ships with air defence role

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

We lost our atlantique in 99 middle of sea because we dont have ships with good air defence system to cover our air missions pn should buy more bigger ships with air defence role

The Atlantic was not shot down at sea.
It was shot down by an IAF Mig 21 over the Rann of Kutch area by an AAM.

 

[Armchair]

Atlantique was hijacked by an Indian agent and was being comandeered to India. The crew struggled and managed to take the aircraft back, while it was still in Pakistani airspace. An Indian MiG-21 that was shadowing the aircraft from the Indian border was commanded to shoot it down once they realized the plan had failed.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Thanks Syed and Araz for a great discussion. I think, Pakistan needs:

1. A solid a2d
2. Some offensive capacity for deterrence and strategic defense

It will be hard for Pakistan to afford more than this.

Pakistan should not try to go toe-to-toe with India in trying to maintain hegemony over the Indian ocean or up till the Straits of Malacca. Imagine even with 6 Type 52s, in the case of war, going for a stroll in the Indian Ocean and towards the Straits of Malacca. It would be ambushed, overwhelmed with massive losses, and will not, even if not ambushed, serve any meaningful purpose.

Now, China would want Pakistan to keep the CPEC open in a serious escalation either with India or with the US. Now I see the purpose of the 054As. Which are just about right to maintain SLOCs to the Gulf, and perhaps a few 052s could also help achieve this. This then is the purpose of the 054A purchases, and likely the purpose of an additional 6 such ships.

Now it all makes sense.

Other countries that could bother Pakistan - not sure perhaps Iran or Israel. Iran may try to generally shut down the Gulf during a conflict, well, a very likely conflict with the Trump administration, who will attack Iran, its only a matter of time perhaps. The other such indirect / direct threat is Israel.

But both these cases do not warrant a force of 6 052Cs. At best they deserve some Ada Class. Well, at least ones with proper air defense, not the ridiculous ones being purchased - 2400 ton ship costing 250 million USD defended by a single CIWS / PDMS.

Just throwing it out there...but in 2015-2016, three kinds of PLAN ships had visited Pakistan. First, a Type 039A/041. Contract signed for 8 subs. Then Type 054A and Type 052C. The 054A was signed, but the current fleet make up for the future does leave 2 Type 052C a sensible plausibility, e.g. have one serve as a flagship to 2 054A, 4 Ada/F-22P,

 

[LKJ86]

Just throwing it out there...but in 2015-2016, three kinds of PLAN ships had visited Pakistan. First, a Type 039A/041. Contract signed for 8 subs. Then Type 054A and Type 052C. The 054A was signed, but the current fleet make up for the future does leave 2 Type 052C a sensible plausibility, e.g. have one serve as a flagship to 2 054A, 4 Ada/F-22P,

Why isn't Pakistan interested in Aegis-like destroyers?

 

[syed_yusuf]

I have no inside info nor any plan data. Just a creation of my imagination. I think buying used 52c is a way forward all 6 of them. These 6 examples will provide enourmous amount of punch to PN and will be unrivalled for years ahead. Not only that I imagine before PN get them, they need to upgrade vls system with up to 72 multipurpose Chambers in front and remove extra round cells next to hanger to make room for additional chopper

Upgrade them with ciws 1130. Some electronics upgrade. And PN have a very decent platform to patrol vastness of sea. To do show of force and create buzz globally. Again these ships will be unrivalled for at least a decade or 2 sabs USN.