Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[Aamir Hussain]

or Battle Class, Yarmuk, Khyber, Badar, Hunain, Tabuk....

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Taking a bit further from what Bilal Khan wrote on improving the F22p, we have built one of the boats here in Pakistan. We know the basic design. what we need to do is:

1. Build upon the hull design of F22p (for example insert a five meter hull extension) to fit better electronics, and create space for AAW missiles. Of course it would require some design study's to ensure good sea-keeping qualities are kept intact. I don't think the Chinese would mind if we borrow their design and improve upon it.
2. Acquire western radars and electronics.
3. Integrate Aselsan combat management systems and sensors
4. Use Italian Oto Melara Super Rapid 76mm main gun (AK-176 is Installed on F-22P, it weighs 16.8 Tons while Oto Melara weighs 9 Tons with the same rate of fire but improvement in range 15.5 km vs 20 km)
5. Integrate the Turkish secondary weapons or the Chinese FM3000
6. Integrate ADA ASW sensors and weapons or Chinese towed sonar which is good.
7. Change power plant to a CODAG or COGOG. Buying a power plant would not be a problem. We have bought western power plants for both F22P and ADA from European suppliers. This will increase overall speed and enhance acceleration and maneuvering during a AShM attack. This is a weak area (Under 30 Knot speed) of all Chinese ships at this point in time. I believe Type 54B and follow-on types are remedying this aspect of their design.
8. Enhance the decoy suit against both AShM and submarine launched weapons. ADA is good in this area.
9. We can take the basic Z-9 helo and use it as a shipboard ASW aerial platform and OTH targeting system.

Basically, take the hull, redesign it, create space, mix and match sensors and weapon systems and replace the power plant.

We have access to Turkish, Chinese, and Italian systems. If need be French and Brit systems can be bought too of defensive nature.

It will take a lot of R&D but I think the Turks and the Chinese will work with us as it helps all of us by exposing certain tech. that are not readily accessible to each other.

I know it is a tall order and easier said than done. KSEW has built a Frigate sized warship and have detailed plans and construction drawings of that boat. Procuring steel from China is not an issue. Electrical harness kit can be easily replicated that from the design of F22P with required modifications. A lot of sub systems and machinery used in F22P have their origins in western designs. Winches, latches, scuttles, hatch designs, power rigs, marine motors & lights/lamps, water tight seals, etc. are all available in the market, easily.

But for this Naval Design Bureau has to be ramped up and KSEW needs to really get into the game. Start with 2 lead ships of a class and then work our way up from the learning curve.

My 2C worth.

There are often many suggestions of improvements and integrations for PN, so I would like to share some historical bits with you.

PN has a poor record of successful integrations. The reason that the complete platform is preferred from China or a third source so that the outside builder takes complete responsibility of the Combat System. Here is why.

In the 1990s, Pakistan acquired the complete Amazon Class Type 21 ships, starting with PNS Tariq hence Tariq Class, and decided to "upgrade" 03 of them. For the modernized configuration, following systems were considered:
DA08 Radar
LY60 SAM
DR3000 ESM System
Alenia C3 Combat System
ATAS from Thompson
DS30B Guns
NAJIR 3000 EOS
The above was called project Horizon, and PN Dockyard was tasked to undertake the integration.

For the non-modernized configuration, C3 and Harpoon ASM were to be installed. Both were an immense success.

What worked? The DA08 came from Signaal Holland, and was successfully installed. So was the C3 (called C Cube in PN). DR3000 was an epic success and went on to every platform in PN. However, LY60 was a drastic failure, as it was the first implementation of a land based system at sea. So was ATAS, DS30B and NAJIR, which either didn't work, or PN was not able to install or integrate them on time, time barring contractual periods etc.

Hence, third party integrations are notoriously difficult, and this was a challenging experience for PN. This "partial" third party integration success holds hard on PN psyche when buying systems and platforms, and no decision maker or authority wants to be in a position to take responsibility of integrating complex systems.

Most likely, Babur Class.

Babur was always the Flagship of PN. With the Type-21s, a non-modernized Amazon was renamed Babur in Destroyer Squadron 25, DESRON 25 for short. The three, Babur, Badar, Shahjahan served PN well, way beyond their designed life. I speculate that the newer craft shall bring back DESRON 25 as Babur class vessels, F22Ps being DERSON 18 (Bringing Back Zulfiqar & Shamsher of the Leander class DESRON 18 vessels).

 

[SQ8]

PN makes a judgement based on its requirements and its budget. The 054A provides all the requisite capabilities in the ball park figure at a price to fit PN's bidget. The Chinese Government sanctions loans to buy the product and so it happens. The capabilities are current and much beyond what PN currently has. So a welcome step. The quality of product and armaments and upgradeability is something only PLAN/ PN can comment on. Obviously with mass production of a mature design quality would have to be good. Howecer for the moment lets leave that discussion out of the fray. Once the product arrives it will be a litmus test for its quality. I remain interested in why PN does not want to upgrade its F22ps inspite of theChinese offer.
@Bilal Khan 777 , @Bilal Khan (Quwa),@Oscar any thoughts.
A

The biggest contributor is the availability of soft loans from China to buy- Pakistanis are busy looting all other coffers so being able to source weapons from a country that offers its own loans is a hobsons choice.

The Chinese attitude is changing from mass produced to higher quality as well but it’s a paradigm shift that takes decades:but it is we’ll underway.

The F-22P has shown some limitations in terms of upgrade capabilities due to both lack of suitable hardware and price point to what PN considers an upgrade.
Any upgrade has to be worth its salt to be called an upgrade otherwise its spending money for a few additional bells and whistles that don’t actually take the capability to a place where the PN wants it(and can justify spending money on)

 

[LKJ86]

That is an interesting point. With a major warship the same as PLAN, it would be easy to ramp up during tensions. Bit like how F-7s were sent during tensions. This also means it may be good policy to have a tank and a fighter aircraft that has the same logistical utility. This alone should make a squadron of J-10s or some other PLAAF aircraft an important acquisition, as well as regards the Type 99 MBT.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

NAMES OF MAJOR SURFACE WARSHIPS IN PN SERVICE OVER THE YEARS

Dido Class Cruiser 60's: Babur (Mughal Emperor)
Battle Class Destroyers 60's: Badr, Khyber (All Battles)
Various types of Destroyers (C, CH Class) 60's: Alamgir, ShahJahan, Tipu Sultan, Jahangir (Mughal Emperors or Generals)

Gearing Class FRAM I Destroyers 77-82': Taimur, Tariq, Tughril, ShahJahan, Alamgir, Tippu Sultan. (Emperors/Generals/conquerors)
Garcia Class Frigates 89':Saif, Harbah, Siqqat, Aslat (Weapons)
Brooks Class Frigates 89': Badr, Khyber, Tabuk, Hunain (All Battles)

Type 12M Leander Class 90's: Shamsher, Zulfiquar. (Weapons)
Type 21 Amazon Class Frigates 90's: Babur, Tariq, Tipu Sultan, Alamgir, Shah Jahan, Alamgir (Mughal/Famous Emperors/Generals)
County Class Destroyer 90's: Babur (Mughal Emperor)

Sword Class Frigates 2009+: Saif, Aslat, Zufiquar, Shamsheer (Weapons)

NAMES OF SUBMARINES IN PN SERVICE OVER THE YEARS

Tench Class Ocean Going Sub 60's: Ghazi
Daphne Class Subs 70's: Shushuk, Hangor, Mangro, Ghazi
Agosta 70 Class Sub 80's: Hashmat, Hurmat
Agosta 90B Class Sub 2000's: Saad, Khalid, Hamza

It would be interesting to see what would be the class name for Type 54A. As per our Bilal Khan 777 it would be named after Babar.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The biggest contributor is the availability of soft loans from China to buy- Pakistanis are busy looting all other coffers so being able to source weapons from a country that offers its own loans is a hobsons choice.

The Chinese attitude is changing from mass produced to higher quality as well but it’s a paradigm shift that takes decades:but it is we’ll underway.

The F-22P has shown some limitations in terms of upgrade capabilities due to both lack of suitable hardware and price point to what PN considers an upgrade.
Any upgrade has to be worth its salt to be called an upgrade otherwise its spending money for a few additional bells and whistles that don’t actually take the capability to a place where the PN wants it(and can justify spending money on)

The other big advantage of the Chinese is scale.

Besides the US, no one else - certainly not in Europe or Russia - has 30 individual examples of a single frigate design.

This scale basically keeps the price of each 054A close to its cost of labour, materials and production (esp. as the PN is just importing them from China, leveraging the existing and fine-tuned production engine).

That said, the 054A itself is a unique design for the PN. Yes, it's a modest design by the PLAN's standards (e.g. they have DDGs for long-range AAW), but to the PN, it carries immense long-term value.

There's likely enough space in it to one day upgrade the medium-range AAW (LY80) to a long-range AAW - i.e. when the Chinese develop or offer that solution. I think 10-15 years is a reasonable estimate for seeing a Chinese solution analogous to the Aster 30, S-350/Redut or SM-2/3.

 

[YeBeWarned]

The other big advantage of the Chinese is scale.

Besides the US, no one else - certainly not in Europe or Russia - has 30 individual examples of a single frigate design.

This scale basically keeps the price of each 054A close to its cost of labour, materials and production (esp. as the PN is just importing them from China, leveraging the existing and fine-tuned production engine).

That said, the 054A itself is a unique design for the PN. Yes, it's a modest design by the PLAN's standards (e.g. they have DDGs for long-range AAW), but to the PN, it carries immense long-term value.

There's likely enough space in it to one day upgrade the medium-range AAW (LY80) to a long-range AAW - i.e. when the Chinese develop or offer that solution. I think 10-15 years is a reasonable estimate for seeing a Chinese solution analogous to the Aster 30, S-350/Redut or SM-2/3.

bro, i have a question .. as per the PN we will have out 4 Type 54A's by 2021 , which means in 3 years .. so does this mean that all 4 of them will be build in China ? because i doubt KSEW have capability to build a Frigate like Type 54 in a year , only Chinese Ship building can do it .. ? do you have any news regarding where these Ships will be build ? and are they under construction already ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

bro, i have a question .. as per the PN we will have out 4 Type 54A's by 2021 , which means in 3 years .. so does this mean that all 4 of them will be build in China ? because i doubt KSEW have capability to build a Frigate like Type 54 in a year , only Chinese Ship building can do it .. ? do you have any news regarding where these Ships will be build ? and are they under construction already ?

All China. I don't know if production started.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

NAMES OF MAJOR SURFACE WARSHIPS IN PN SERVICE OVER THE YEARS

Dido Class Cruiser 60's: Babur (Mughal Emperor)
Battle Class Destroyers 60's: Badr, Khyber (All Battles)
Various types of Destroyers (C, CH Class) 60's: Alamgir, ShahJahan, Tipu Sultan, Jahangir (Mughal Emperors or Generals)

Gearing Class FRAM I Destroyers 77-82': Taimur, Tariq, Tughril, ShahJahan, Alamgir, Tippu Sultan. (Emperors/Generals/conquerors)
Garcia Class Frigates 89':Saif, Harbah, Siqqat, Aslat (Weapons)
Brooks Class Frigates 89': Badr, Khyber, Tabuk, Hunain (All Battles)

Type 12M Leander Class 90's: Shamsher, Zulfiquar. (Weapons)
Type 21 Amazon Class Frigates 90's: Babur, Tariq, Tipu Sultan, Alamgir, Shah Jahan, Alamgir (Mughal/Famous Emperors/Generals)
County Class Destroyer 90's: Babur (Mughal Emperor)

Sword Class Frigates 2009+: Saif, Aslat, Zufiquar, Shamsheer (Weapons)

NAMES OF SUBMARINES IN PN SERVICE OVER THE YEARS

Tench Class Ocean Going Sub 60's: Ghazi
Daphne Class Subs 70's: Shushuk, Hangor, Mangro, Ghazi
Agosta 70 Class Sub 80's: Hashmat, Hurmat
Agosta 90B Class Sub 2000's: Saad, Khalid, Hamza

It would be interesting to see what would be the class name for Type 54A. As per our Bilal Khan 777 it would be named after Babar.

they should name one of the new submarines after PNS Ghazi

 

[syed_yusuf]

they should name one of the new submarines after PNS Ghazi

this name should be left out for nuclear powered sub

 

[The Accountant]

this name should be left out for nuclear powered sub

Nuclear powered subs are not coming ... We dont need them as they are not as effective in individual capacity and are mostly work with a CBG

 

[Ultima Thule]

this name should be left out for nuclear powered sub

What nuclear sub @syed_yusuf , there is patchy information that we are working a mini nuke reactor for our subs, but if this project is still going on it is long way to go and will not come into fruitation after 2030 @syed_yusuf

this name should be left out for nuclear powered sub

What nuclear sub @syed_yusuf , there is patchy information that we are working a mini nuke reactor for our subs, but if this project is still going on it is long way to go and will not come into fruitation after 2030 @syed_yusuf

 

[Reichsmarschall]

What nuclear sub @syed_yusuf , there is patchy information that we are working a mini nuke reactor for our subs, but if this project is still going on it is long way to go and will not come into fruitation after 2030 @syed_yusuf


What nuclear sub @syed_yusuf , there is patchy information that we are working a mini nuke reactor for our subs, but if this project is still going on it is long way to go and will not come into fruitation after 2030 @syed_yusuf

learn to tolerate someone elses opinion too

 

[Ultima Thule]

learn to tolerate someone elses opinion too

what opinion @syed_yusuf is living in wishful thinking @Reichsmarschall

 

[The Accountant]

What nuclear sub @syed_yusuf , there is patchy information that we are working a mini nuke reactor for our subs, but if this project is still going on it is long way to go and will not come into fruitation after 2030 @syed_yusuf


What nuclear sub @syed_yusuf , there is patchy information that we are working a mini nuke reactor for our subs, but if this project is still going on it is long way to go and will not come into fruitation after 2030 @syed_yusuf

That is way before ... I think that project is shelved ... Furthermore with attack capability from conventional sub it is highly unlikely that we will go for nuclear sub as in cost to benefit terms it is not worthwhile