Pakistan navy post 2020 - Future Plans

[Tank131]

The issue of 052D is multifactorial. A few years ago they were a definite no m9stly because without proper frigates to support them they could becoming big targets/sitting ducks for the IN, especially when we look at the cost and PN likely only being able to afford 2 of them. Now you have 4 Jinnah class on the way and 4 Type 054A/P, you have enough support to adequately protect a destroyer like 052D.

With that said, you also have to factor in not only the cost of the vessel, but also its operational costs. Including manning it. If we look back about 15 years, the US had offered the Spruance Class USS Fletcher to PN free of charge, as a hot transfer. The 8000t vessel was equipped with an 8 cell Sea sparrow launcher (likely removed) space for 8 harpoon canisters, an 8 cell ASROC launcher (which likely would have been removed), a 21 cell RAM launcher, and a whopping 61 cell Mk-41 VLS. You could have requested SM-2 to equip it and it would gave been overwhelmingly the most powerful ship in PN/IN theater at tye time, except PN turned it down because they could not even afford its operating cost for 1 year, in no small part than it takes 334 people to man the ship. Now the type 052D will likely have far lower operating costs and certainly takes fewer people to operate it at ~280, and it being only in the 7000t range, but it will still be a significant cost. And a single 052D wont move any needles. You would need multiple such ships (at least 3-4) to make any real threat to IN in an offensive posture.

I think PN should focus right now on a multiprong strategy instead of 052D.

1. Really learn the warship building trade by utilizing the full capacity of the intellectual property you bought from Turkey regarding the MILGEM. Learn it modify it if necessary and build more.

Part of this includes investing in an infrastructure tgat allows you to build a ship from scratch in house which Pakistan cannot do given it has no capacity at this stage to make ship- grade steel.

2. Focus on developing weaponry in house. Some of this is already being done with reports of a hypersonic AShM under development (likely a modified C-302 or cx-1), but more importantly development of a system of SAMs with multiple layers of defense starting with long range (150km+, ideally 200km+) with high altitude and ballistic intercept capabilities. This would be a very long term project id a solution cannot be acquired off the shelf (like hq-9 and its varients). The second (and in my opinion the more immediately crucial is a medium ranged quad packed sam. Something in the 50-70km range. This can be in conjunction with Turkey or china, but would allow Pakistan to install it on any ship of Pakistans choosing. CAMM-ER would be ideal but for the last segment of this to come true, some type on in house solution is needed. The last is a PDMS with an (ideally) 10-20km range for supersonic missile. You could even use Anza Mk3 as a starting point and develop from there.

3. Jointly develope larger warships with friendly nations (ideally Turkey) so as to cut costs amd share the burden (much like the french and Italian did with the Horizon class).

 

[MastanKhan]

Now you know why it is better to have certain people on your ignore list. It keeps your blood pressure normal and your life smooth. Click the name of the poster in the left column of the post, press ignore and see how calm your life becomes.
Kind regards
A

Cowards seek the easy way out---live in an illusion and believe that if they shut their eyes---the problem does not exist---.

You may enjoy your Ostrich mode---.

So---in order to keep your blood pressure down---you would rather listen to the lies spread by the Paf and won't participate in making things better for pakistan's defenses---by listening to the truth---.

Isn't that a tragedy of pakistan---that its well versed have closed their ears---.

 

[MastanKhan]

With all Due Respect son, your argument is of a a defeatist that are common from your era in PAF. Knowledge is lost due to rotation and retirement in military. Knowledge is retained and refreshed only when you are industrializing, manufacturing, and exploring. Otherwise, there should be no TOTs and only Technical Attachments to get your thinkings to a higher plateau.

Hi,

I had not written for a couple of months so I was a little bit rusty in my answer---.

Mister---do you have any clue to what you wrote---.

Do you have any clue what engineering is and how it works---. Do you have any clue how 3rd world nations of the world are begging to understand TOT and get TOT for any project that is being worked on for them---.

I have an engineering background---I have microbiology and bio chemistry and human physiology background---I have graduate level english literature background as well---and I can tell you one thing---for a learning mind TOT is a blessing sent by God---even if you may never get to use it---.

The truth is that once you get involved being a part of technology where technology is being transferred---your life would never be the same---even if you may chose to forget it---which you will never be able to---.

You may get rusty---but knowledge learnt is never wasted---.

For a military officer---supposedly with a rank of air vice marshall---your mindset and understanding or lack of understanding about the subject of TOT is absolutely shocking.

My uncle learnt TOT of nuc reactors from UK and USA in the 60's ( he was one of many pakistani nuclear physicists who learnt that )---he never thought that in the 70's he would be transferring that technology to pakistan to build a nuc weapon---that he would start by teaching future pakistanis nuclear physicists at the Reactor school at Nylore at that time in the 70's by TOT ie transferring the technology that he learnt from abroad---.

You disgust me sir by making that comment---. Knowledge is power and that makes us think and act different---and you come here and shamelessly discredit those navy engineers and army engineers who were a part of a project with TOT and insult them and degrade them that they forgot---.

No they did not forget that---that knowledge broadened their vision and expanded their horizons---just because their departments never got any back up orders---it was not their fault---.

You are getting old air marshall---you have lost it



And @araz ---man don't cut your nose to spite your face---. You should have at least read in depth what this man was saying.

But if you were waiting to support someone who was having a go at me---oh well---what can I say.

Just ignore him you are a great member and we learn a lot from you

Oh look at the little pup---has grown some fangs and grown some courage---. Posting stolen articles and news feeds from one source or another---you think you become somebody---.

@masterchief_mirza is that more like the old one---?????

 

[Gryphon]

Gents, No need resorting to personal insults. Everyone has an interpretation of ToT according to their experience / inexperience and that's fine.

So, disengage & move on...

 

[Tank131]

In my observation its convenient for some to bash @MastanKhan without reading what he is saying. We don't always agree on things, but the point of view that the the transfer of any level of knowledge that you dont currently possess in you home industry is a positive is the most sane position. How you and your countrymen use the knowledge is up to you. If you let it just sit there and rust and the retire, of course it may be a waste, but in my experience that is never the situation. Whether you learb the science behind the development of a product or the supply chain techniques used to manage projects and development/build products, there is always knowledge to be had. That knowledge is usually passed down to junior engineers, technicians, and students/interns who those individuals work with after the project's completion or even in their retirement when some go on to teach. National/industry involvement in such endeavors is always positive. I think that is the crux of his point and it is a difficult thing to dispute.

 

[MastanKhan]

Gents, No need resorting to personal insults. Everyone has an interpretation of ToT according to their experience / inexperience and that's fine.

So, disengage & move on...

Hi,

Thank you---would have been nice if you had posted your comments a couple of days earlier at those guys who started it rather than me---.

 

[Pakistan Ka Beta]

Thanks to ALLAH ( GOD) . Good news is majority of these Procurements are from friendly n allied countries like China and Turkey not US , UK so IA these will join PN Soon .

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

The issue of 052D is multifactorial. A few years ago they were a definite no m9stly because without proper frigates to support them they could becoming big targets/sitting ducks for the IN, especially when we look at the cost and PN likely only being able to afford 2 of them. Now you have 4 Jinnah class on the way and 4 Type 054A/P, you have enough support to adequately protect a destroyer like 052D.

With that said, you also have to factor in not only the cost of the vessel, but also its operational costs. Including manning it. If we look back about 15 years, the US had offered the Spruance Class USS Fletcher to PN free of charge, as a hot transfer. The 8000t vessel was equipped with an 8 cell Sea sparrow launcher (likely removed) space for 8 harpoon canisters, an 8 cell ASROC launcher (which likely would have been removed), a 21 cell RAM launcher, and a whopping 61 cell Mk-41 VLS. You could have requested SM-2 to equip it and it would gave been overwhelmingly the most powerful ship in PN/IN theater at tye time, except PN turned it down because they could not even afford its operating cost for 1 year, in no small part than it takes 334 people to man the ship. Now the type 052D will likely have far lower operating costs and certainly takes fewer people to operate it at ~280, and it being only in the 7000t range, but it will still be a significant cost. And a single 052D wont move any needles. You would need multiple such ships (at least 3-4) to make any real threat to IN in an offensive posture.

I think PN should focus right now on a multiprong strategy instead of 052D.

1. Really learn the warship building trade by utilizing the full capacity of the intellectual property you bought from Turkey regarding the MILGEM. Learn it modify it if necessary and build more.

Part of this includes investing in an infrastructure tgat allows you to build a ship from scratch in house which Pakistan cannot do given it has no capacity at this stage to make ship- grade steel.

2. Focus on developing weaponry in house. Some of this is already being done with reports of a hypersonic AShM under development (likely a modified C-302 or cx-1), but more importantly development of a system of SAMs with multiple layers of defense starting with long range (150km+, ideally 200km+) with high altitude and ballistic intercept capabilities. This would be a very long term project id a solution cannot be acquired off the shelf (like hq-9 and its varients). The second (and in my opinion the more immediately crucial is a medium ranged quad packed sam. Something in the 50-70km range. This can be in conjunction with Turkey or china, but would allow Pakistan to install it on any ship of Pakistans choosing. CAMM-ER would be ideal but for the last segment of this to come true, some type on in house solution is needed. The last is a PDMS with an (ideally) 10-20km range for supersonic missile. You could even use Anza Mk3 as a starting point and develop from there.

3. Jointly develope larger warships with friendly nations (ideally Turkey) so as to cut costs amd share the burden (much like the french and Italian did with the Horizon class).

Do we have ships to protect Type 054A/P?

 

[Pakistan Ka Beta]

Russia we are buying MI 35 we already bought Anti Tank weapons. We most likely have bought AK 103. And I am more than sure that PANTSIR is also coming soon. So if not big Frigates than small corvettes which can fire their 2000 KM Klub Missile is highly possible.

Brother any Confirmation / News of Pantsir that we ordered it ? even from Sources ? Indian media reported it n here on PD as well . Thanks .

 

[HRK]

Here at this stage I would like members to search about the issues of Knowledge Loss and Knowledge Retention in Industrial and Corporate world its REAL and a RISK which cost $ and time to the organisations

for the start they can also read this paper: (click here)

In most simple and understandable manner getting TOT even complete TOT related to manufacturing is not a silver bullet, countries or organisations must have strategies to retain that knowledge either by continuation of the program or new research based on the knowledge gain ....

In this context most relevant examples in our case are

1- Agosta Submarine program in which we get some degree of TOT but due to lack of further orders for submarine by PN we lost the knowledge acquired and now in terms of Submarine manufacturing we are standing again at the same position where we were before the Agosta submarine TOT

2- On the other hand what we see in JF-17 program is the continues progress even for new technologies due to limited local R&D, involvement of Academia and support of PAF in terms of firm orders for JF-17 and support of Government in terms of finance because of all of these JF-17 as program is a success not just in the developing and delivering the intended product but to GAIN and RETAIN the knowledge and also enhance it further .....

 

[Tank131]

Do we have ships to protect Type 054A/P?

They have the ability to defend themselves. The HQ-16 is a reasonable SAM and while certainly the 052D is far more capable as an air defense ship, the fact that you have 1 or 2 destroyers our there alone makes them a target for saturation attacks. The presence of the Jinnahs and 054As creates additional layers of protection. Ideally the F-22P will undergo MLU and also be made able to assist in air defense. But the idea is to create multiple levels of protection in battle groups/flotilla.

I would imagine the 054s will work in conjunction with other ships (as flotilla level defense) along with a Jinnah , F-22P and possibly 1-2 submarines. Between Jinnah, Type 054A and F-22p you will have at least 48 medium range missiles 8 short range missiles and 5 CIWS to defend the flotilla from attack. I would hope the 054A come with HQ-16B with 70km range and that the jinnah somehow get access to CAMM-ER (allows for quadpacked 70-100km missiles which would increas the medium range numbers to 96 missiles).

Now if you had 052D by itself which has 64 vls cells for HQ-9, CW-5 ASROCs, and AShM/LACM. That ship can better defend itself for sure, but without small support vessels (like Jinnah, 054A/P and F-22P, it is a target). With their help, it is a formidable beast.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Do we have ships to protect Type 054A/P?

why do you they have not, and btw they will come with HQ-16b SAMs with a range of 70 km, they have self defense capability in fact they have area defense capability, to defend itself and other ships of PN as well

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

why do you they have not, and btw they will come with HQ-16b SAMs with a range of 70 km, they have self defense capability in fact they have area defense capability, to defend itself and other ships of PN as well

Well Type 52Ds have better.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Well Type 52Ds have better.

yes you're right but it is expensive toy, and Navy moving step by step in right direction, when our economy improves within few years i am pretty sure we will get Type 52Ds, 3-4 would be nice forPN

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Let the Type 54 A to join PN. Then next step would be 52 D destroyers to come in