Pakistan navy post 2020 - Future Plans

[khanasifm]

Uptill now only the AW101 is being considered as a replacement for the Sea Kings.
Z-20 is at a very early stage, so cannot be evaluated in comparison.
NH-90 is not being considered at the moment as it has some restrictions.

Doubt that seaking will go in next ۵ years especially as there are many available 10 years down the road ??

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Doubt that seaking will go in next ۵ years especially as there are many available 10 years down the road ??

Some air frames will reach the limit of their designed life after that.
Replacement also takes time, and another 3/4 years will be required for procurement, training's, logistics and operatability.

 

[Dazzler]

Uptill now only the AW101 is being considered as a replacement for the Sea Kings.
Z-20 is at a very early stage, so cannot be evaluated in comparison.
NH-90 is not being considered at the moment as it has some restrictions.

Isnt AW101 too old? It's been around since 87.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Uptill now only the AW101 is being considered as a replacement for the Sea Kings.
Z-20 is at a very early stage, so cannot be evaluated in comparison.
NH-90 is not being considered at the moment as it has some restrictions.

What about Eurocopter EC725 Super Pumas/Cougars or similar helicopter? Also, how does the PN feel about British helos after the whole Lynx debacle?

Isnt AW101 too old? It's been around since 87.

That's comparatively pretty new.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Isnt AW101 too old? It's been around since 87.

The EH-101 was inducted after 2000.
AW101 was developed from EH-101 in 2010.

What about Eurocopter EC725 Super Pumas/Cougars or similar helicopter? Also, how does the PN feel about British helos after the whole Lynx debacle?

.

AW101 (EH101) just like the Sea King was designed as a Naval helicopter for ASW/ASV.

Puma's & Cougars are conversions.

We have flown the British Westland Sea Kings since the late 70s, so we have had a good experience.

 

[Khafee]

The EH-101 was inducted after 2000.
AW101 was developed from EH-101 in 2010.



AW101 (EH101) just like the Sea King was designed as a Naval helicopter for ASW/ASV.

Puma's & Cougars are conversions.

We have flown the British Westland Sea Kings since the late 70s, so we have had a good experience.

No possibility of S-92b ? After all the Sea King is the British version of the S-61.

Sikorsky upgrades S-92 with new B-model variant

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Uptill now only the AW101 is being considered as a replacement for the Sea Kings.
Z-20 is at a very early stage, so cannot be evaluated in comparison.
NH-90 is not being considered at the moment as it has some restrictions.

Yea I was aware of them considering the AW101 for the Sea King, but initially it was on the higher cost side.

So, one idea (according to a retired PN officer) was to do a 'Hi/Lo' with the AW101 as the heavy/high-end and buy more Z-9 for the light/low-end. Leonardo also offered the AW159 (while highlighting engine commonality with the T129 of the PA and T625, which is a candidate for replacing Alouette IIIs in the PA and PN).

However, someone else (albeit from the industry) said the PN would rather move towards one ship-based platform, and it needs to be multi-mission. In this case, they asked for info about the NH-90 and MH-60. But, as you said, it seems both helicopters have a restriction, the simplest one being US parts (NH-90 uses a US engine).

That said, it turns out that the total cost (procurement, maintenance, etc) of the AW101, NH-90 and MH-60 is all quite close at around $100 m per helicopter. So, in the end, the PN could (as you said) just go for the AW101 and build around it. We might see an end of small ASW helicopters entirely; the PN could move to just AW101 for all naval and marine mission ops, while use the AW139 or T625 for utility and SAR.

 

[khanasifm]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...nese-media-reveals-specs-of-harbin-z-20-helo/

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Yea I was aware of them considering the AW101 for the Sea King, but initially it was on the higher cost side.

So, one idea (according to a retired PN officer) was to do a 'Hi/Lo' with the AW101 as the heavy/high-end and buy more Z-9 for the light/low-end. Leonardo also offered the AW159 (while highlighting engine commonality with the T129 of the PA and T625, which is a candidate for replacing Alouette IIIs in the PA and PN).

However, someone else (albeit from the industry) said the PN would rather move towards one ship-based platform, and it needs to be multi-mission. In this case, they asked for info about the NH-90 and MH-60. But, as you said, it seems both helicopters have a restriction, the simplest one being US parts (NH-90 uses a US engine).

That said, it turns out that the total cost (procurement, maintenance, etc) of the AW101, NH-90 and MH-60 is all quite close at around $100 m per helicopter. So, in the end, the PN could (as you said) just go for the AW101 and build around it. We might see an end of small ASW helicopters entirely; the PN could move to just AW101 for all naval and marine mission ops, while use the AW139 or T625 for utility and SAR.

Yes, small helo's do not provide the time on task enough to conduct effective ASW.
The only limitation was small flight decks which could not accommodate larger helo's.

Sea King has a 4+ hour ToT for ASW, which was quite comfortable.
Specially when embarked, they would provide more ToT.

PN proposes the AW101 for the main roles, while Z-9/AW139 for the SAR/Utility role in the future.

No possibility of S-92b ? After all the Sea King is the British version of the S-61.

Sikorsky upgrades S-92 with new B-model variant

Nope.

 

[khanasifm]

Aw101 is 15 ton and would not fit any pn ships perhaps only tankers

Unless aw101 is to operate from shore like sea-kings, z-9 4 ton and medium weight 10 upto max can operate from Turkish, danish and 054

 

[khanasifm]

Z-9 provide asw capability to ships by attacking subs over the horizon at extended range once the ship detects it at least get some indication of threat , current ship based asw weapons ie torpedos has max range of 10-20 km with heli ship can attack at say 100-350km or beyond the range of sub weapons

Seaking class ie 12-15 tons range is twice of z-9 class so looking at 700-800 km out at seas so can operate from shore or larger ship such as tankers

 

[khanasifm]

Z-9EC ASW Helicopter

The Z-9EC is an ASW helicopter developed by Harbin Aircraft based on Harbin Z-9 helicopter, a license-built version of the French AS365 Dauphin. The Z-9EC is operated by the Pakistan Navy’s Naval Air Arm.

The helicopter integrates advanced anti-submarine systems such as search radar, dipping sonar system, and ET-52C anti-submarine torpedoes for hunting submarines. The Harpoon landing/take-off system aboard the helicopter ensures operations from ships.

The Z-9EC enhances the operational range of the host platform while meeting the challenging requirements of modern ASW warfare.

The helicopter has a maximum range of 427km and can remain airborne for 2.27


AW101 (Military)

The AW101 (formerly EH101 Merlin) multi-role helicopter is capable of performing a wide range of missions in maritime and littoral environments. The helicopter can be deployed in medium-sized transport, ASW, ASuW, long-range search-and-rescue (SAR), airborne mine countermeasures and ship-based utility missions.

The AW101 helicopters configured for autonomous ASW and ASuW missions integrate a mission system composed of dipping sonar, sonobuoys and electronic warfare suite. The helicopter has four torpedoes/depth charges in its weaponry.

The helicopter can also be armed with anti-ship missiles, air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, rockets and gun systems.

The typical range and endurance of the AW101 are 1,300km and six hours respectively.

 

[Tipu7]

Yes, small helo's do not provide the time on task enough to conduct effective ASW.
The only limitation was small flight decks which could not accommodate larger helo's.

Sea King has a 4+ hour ToT for ASW, which was quite comfortable.
Specially when embarked, they would provide more ToT.

Will PN Damen & Jinnah class vessels be able to support such a large heli?

 

[Khafee]

Nope.

I understand why not, but in comparison to the AW101, much better reliability, and much easier maintenance.

Anyways, the AW101 comes with as an AWAC version as well, wishful thinking on my part, but hope you get it.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Will PN Damen & Jinnah class vessels be able to support such a large heli?

They support up to 10 tons.

If the PN is interested in the AW101, then it means it'll procure additional Z-9ECs to support ASW/utility operations from its new ships.

OTOH, if the PN opts for a 10-ton helicopter -- such as NH90 or MH60 -- then it'll standardize on that platform for ASW, AShW and troop transport, while leaving the Z-9, AW139 or T625 for utility and SAR.

The PN must make its decision in the next 12-18 months as all 12 new ships will be in place by 2023/2024. @khanasifm you'll be interested to know that South Korea got the MH-60 for $67 m a helicopter (DSCA), which isn't bad, but it depends on the US.

I'd rather the PN go for a 10-ton type as it'll mean buying that type in numbers (18~24) to support the new frigates/corvettes and replace the Sea Kings.