Pakistan Navy---A Day Late & A Dollar Short:---

[MastanKhan]

Here also he is suggesting the same...now you and i can differ here but his POV is still the same...b/w he has never explained one thing to my satisfaction atleast... where the fukcing money is going to come from ....even in this example he is suggesting to break the deal in two tranches of 10 billion each...so if i get it right his thought is to have two 5 years contract of $10 billion...now the missing peace is from where this additional $10 billion is going to come...!!

Hi,

An intelligent person amongst all of us------. You hit the nail right on the head---.

First of all---if your 3 naval arms progress in parallel---2 1/2 billion in 5 years gives you 4 subs----3 sqdrns of JH7B's or 2 sqdrn's of J16---almost 2 frigates in 5000 tonnage about 2 in 3000 tonnage and 5 to 6 in the 500 to 1500 tonnage---.

That in itself is a massive force multiplier---because all 3 projects are running in parallel---seperate of each other---not stepping over the resources of others---so in 5 years time---you have a complete air naval and submarine battle group---.

The force that we are now projecting is 300 times more in the same time that we were getting 4 submarines---.

Nobody is stopping the procurement of the subs---the 4 subs are going to be coming in the same time frame as they were planned to.

Now---at the end of 4 years---you again assess the situation---are there 4 more subs needed or the force multipier sufficient to do the job.

See---our other naval assets have given us a massive protection blanket now---.

The second 5 billion will be available from the same source from where the first 5 billion became available---and if it is not---we can order lesser numbers---1 or 2 at a time---.

It is all a matter of breaking down the money.

 

[Mo12]

Hi,

An intelligent person amongst all the ------. You hit the nail right on the head---.

First of all---if your 3 naval arms progress in parallel---10 billion in 5 years gives you 4 subs----4 sqdrns of JH7B's or 3 sqdrn's of J16---almost 4 frigates in 5000 tonnage about 3 in 3000 tonnage and 5 to 6 in the 500 to 1500 tonnage---.

That in itself is a massive force multiplier---because all 3 projects are running in parallel---seperate of each other---not stepping over the resources of others---so in 5 years time---you have a complete air naval and submarine battle group---.

The force that we are now projecting is 300 times more in the same time that we were getting 4 submarines---.

Nobody is stopping the procurement of the subs---the 4 subs are going to be coming in the same time frame as they were planned to.

Now---at the end of 4 years---you again assess the situation---are there 4 more subs needed or the force multipier sufficient to do the job.

See---our other naval assets have given us a massive protection blanket now---.

The second 10 billion will be available from the same source from where the first 10 billion became available---and if it is not---we can order lesser numbers---1 or 2 at a time---.

It is all a matter of breaking down the money.

where is the logistic to handle so many subs etc with 2 ports only?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is for those two members who gave the example of the 313----

Meir's reply was very surprising.

She answered, "I got this logic from the prophet (of the Muslims) Mohammed (peace be upon him). When I was a student, my favorite topic was comparative study of religions. Those days I studied the life of Mohammed (PBUH). One author stated that when Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) died, there was not enough money to buy oil for a lamp, his wife (Ayesha Siddiqua) mortgaged his battle shield to buy oil, yet there were nine swords hung on the wall of his house.

When I read this account, it occurred to me- how many people in the world would have known about the worst economic condition of Islamic state? But everyone recognizes them as conquerors of half the world. So I decided that I would buy arms at any cost; even if we would have to starve or to live in camps instead of buildings, but we would prove ourselves as the victor".



http://www.asiantribune.com/?q=node/11826

where is the logistic to handle so many subs etc with 2 ports only?

Hi,

I cannot tell you about that---but they have been taken care of---.

 

[YeBeWarned]

My standing on this forum is also about 7 years now...i have had multiple discussions with him....here is his main point...his philosophy is Attack is the best Defense...so in short his suggestions is always to have the capacity to bite...Of lately Pakistan forces are turning to be a good defensive force but seems to lack being an aggressive force(ignoring the Kargil misadventure)....and whatever i have read from him is always on that line...

Here also he is suggesting the same...now you and i can differ here but his POV is still the same...b/w he has never explained one thing to my satisfaction atleast... where the fukcing money is going to come from ....even in this example he is suggesting to break the deal in two tranches of 10 billion each...so if i get it right his thought is to have two 5 years contract of $10 billion...now the missing peace is from where this additional $10 billion is going to come...!!

Ok so let me clear my point as well hopefully some Moderator and TTA will see some sense in it too ..
First of all, time does not matter ? I joined recently but that does not mean i started reading recently ..
His posts circle around few points ..First as you mentioned Attack is best defense , and I agree with him ( lets not discuss the reasons ) , second how PAF/PN/PA are all corrupt and Incompetent , and third how everything is filtered by been a car seller .. while reading his post that some how remind me this Spaghetti monster God who happens to be Drunk when he created us and universe ..

The point is " He never give any Prove " to whatever he said , his problem is that he wants everyone to swallow whatever he is saying or else you will be a kid or You Pakistani's .. that really piss me off, cause if you are blaming someone to be corrupt than bring the prove or at least something so that others know that you are not a Drunk person but someone who can be taken seriously .. now let me give you example of myself, i have no Education related to Defense so if i stay here for more 5 years i will still wont be able to put a Professional Opinion cause my base Education was different , and i have tons of others thing to study and not just about this defense stuff, but even in my M.phill studies i have submitted many reports and presentations , and if you are putting a slide in your PPT without the proper reference you know what happen to that Slide or Report ? it goes directly into the trash basket .

I do agree of few things he said, like we can or should have divide this Sub deal into two ... but there is a Formal way to put it but lets just say as we never have Full information about Pakistan's mostly Defense acquisitions so why talk ill about them when we don't even know what Truth is ? ? ?

if after every Post of your's i start typing " That's a Lie " without giving any proves or details about it , there will be a time when you will get pissed too .. and this is case with MK . He wants to have Rational discussion but his OP is based on a Opinion in which he used disrespectful language and mock the Forces and accused them for been Corrupt and incompetent ... That is where i disagree with him .

and last , as i mentioned in my Post , MK is not my Eternal enemy , i don't even know him .. but on a international forum like this when you are a Senior member and people respect you than it means you have a responsibility to post Good stuff not garbage based on imagination and Rants ..

 

[Mo12]

Hi,

It is for those two members who gave the example of the 313----

Meir's reply was very surprising.

She answered, "I got this logic from the prophet (of the Muslims) Mohammed (peace be upon him). When I was a student, my favorite topic was comparative study of religions. Those days I studied the life of Mohammed (PBUH). One author stated that when Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) died, there was not enough money to buy oil for a lamp, his wife (Ayesha Siddiqua) mortgaged his battle shield to buy oil, yet there were nine swords hung on the wall of his house.

When I read this account, it occurred to me- how many people in the world would have known about the worst economic condition of Islamic state? But everyone recognizes them as conquerors of half the world. So I decided that I would buy arms at any cost; even if we would have to starve or to live in camps instead of buildings, but we would prove ourselves as the victor".



http://www.asiantribune.com/?q=node/11826



Hi,

I cannot tell you about that---but they have been taken care of---.

Is it because there isnt?

India and rivals have seperate ports for military and commercial use, dont no how pakistan will cope

 

[T-123456]

where is the logistic to handle so many subs etc with 2 ports only?

Its not that difficult to build some new submarine bases.

 

[Mo12]

Its not that difficult to build some new submarine bases.

disagree, it needs a fully maintained port to do any repairs to the subs as well as re-fueling it

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

Battle of Badar was 1400 years ago---for the last 500 years---the muslim militaries have been smacked around by the christian militaries---.

If your TACTICAL mindset is that of Battle of Badar---it is not a matter of pride to mention it on the world forum---. You need to raise your level of thinking and stop using the crutch of other members---.

300 years would be a realistic #...

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

disagree, it needs a fully maintained port to do any repairs to the subs as well as re-fueling it

JNB,Pasni,Ormara.Gwadar,Karachi,Jiwani,Choohar Jamali.... thats more than 2 i believe.


Im also sure people buying 8 subs and intending to use 13+ surely would know what to do than some indian troll.

 

[MastanKhan]

300 years would be a realistic #...

Hi,

That is agreeable.

 

[Mo12]

JNB,Pasni,Ormara.Gwadar,Karachi,Jiwani,Choohar Jamali.... thats more than 2 i believe.


Im also sure people buying 8 subs and intending to use 13+ surely would know what to do than some indian troll.

who is?

thought its gwardar n karachi only?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

who is?

thought its gwardar n karachi only?

Ports used by PN.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Pakistanis take great pride in giving the example of 313---Ghazwa a Badar---but they are still so ignorant of their own history and technicalities of that war---that it is beyond shocking.

When the muslim army under the leadership of prophet Muhammad pbuh went to war at Badar with 313---they had the " best weapons AVAIABLE to them " UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES---IF THERE WERE VERY FEW SWORDS---THEN THAT IS ALL THEY COULD MUSTER UP FROM THEIR RESOURCES.

If they had better resources---there was nothing stopping them to get more weapons as was evident in later battles---.

You people give examples of your religion---yet you do not know about the battles and weapons procurement of your own religion.

Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not go to the battle intentionally with lesser weaons---and neither was he lackadaisical about procuring them when the resource was available.

So----Mr @Bilal Khan 777 and my young colleague @Starlord give the examples of that war---please learn to understand the history of battles of your religion in depth.

I bet---that you guys never thought about it the way I have explained it--- .

Prophet Muhammad pbuh was an extremely realistic man---and at whatever time it was needed---he utilized his maximum resource---even though to many it looked MINISCULE ( because that is what it was )---but the intention was never there to go with less---but to go with MAXIMUM AVAILABLE resource.

I mean to say---if you have to go to a conflict and there is only one rifle available to your family---and that is all there is to it---and you have turned every stone to get more and you have not been able to---then that is all you are going to go to the conflict with.

And I am saying to those who gave the example of Badar---pakistani military consortium did not utilize all its opportunities to get all that it could---and we all know that.

So---please don't mix up history with your BAD EXAMPLES.

 

[ebrahym]

Hi,

Pakistan's military conglomerate has again been caught short---the surfacing of the indian sub 40 nautical miles away just when the chinese naval ship was visiting pakistan---and the inauguration of CPEC route at Gwadar just showed the pak navy was woefully ill-equipped.

A few years ago when the rumors surfaced about pak military signing a 10 billion dollars deal for 8 chinese subs and supply time of 10 years from the time of signing---and delivery of the last submarine---.

I had written that---that deal was totally ill prepared and ill conceived---. I had stated that the target should have been 5 years project---number of submarine cut in half---and the other half split between surface ships and an aircraft of the type of JH7B---.

So---that all the three facets are covered at the same time in parallel---by three different groups---which has three times the force multiplier effect---.

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 10 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

The casual and callous attitude of the pak military showed that it did not foresee or visualize such an incident happening so close to its waters---and that shows a very poor understanding of what is at stake in the arena---at Gwadar---the arabian sea---the gulf---.

Basically---pak military has been caught with its pants down one more time.

true ssaid
lets see Navy's perspective
its certainly not offensive despite the fact that a good offense is a best defence
Pakistan does not need an expedition to conduct as enemy is just at the door
Pakistan in offence is putting their money on Submersible which is totally justified
and defence on vessels and JF-17s which given our needs is more thsn enough
we only have to secure our route through gulf in a time of war or more widely through red sea
all covereed
want punch?
subs we currently have are ok
the coming ones
oh tish to the enemy

 

[Aasimkhan]

Hi,

Thank you for your input---. It is a sad day for a nation when its young and strong don't have a vision or a thinking of their own

Tom Clancy was an insurance sales man---" The Hunt For Red October "was the best seller in 1984----. It is the book that made russian submarine fleet stand ' naked ' & impotent in front of the world---.

Knowledge is available to ONLY THOSE WHO SEEK IT---.

You have only been on this board for 2 1/2 months---I have been writing here for 11 years now----and not a SINGLE strategic issue that I have written about---I have not been proven wrong---. And how I wish that I was---.

Many a superstars have come and gone eating dust---. You know why----because time will tell the truth---and I will be the first one to apologize and accept my mistake.

Give me one historical reference of a major war or a major conflict where one side was busy making battle shields and forgot to make the swords but still won the war---.

Who told you we needed JH7B---or the J16's? we dont need such stuff mr einstein, a pack of 8 submarines is a good and powerful punch and it caters for attrition also (dont forget this fact, never ever forget it), we may increase number of surface vessels as and when situation allows but we must have 12-15 active submarines to keep indian navy at arms length