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Pakistan Navy---A Day Late & A Dollar Short:---

Hi,

Finances are available---by slitting the 5 billion in two ways---2 1/2 billion for 4 subs and 2 1/2 billion for aircraft and ships----and then go for another 5 billion after 5 years---.
In the 500 millions we could have got one new f22p frigate and upgrade it including the former 4 of the same class to carry medium range air defence missiles plus 3 type 54A and still one billion left for air arm.
 
We speak loud to hide our own deficiencies and laugh at the strength of the enemy,our claims that the enemy force is incapable they have high numbers but low serviceability they are poorly trained and we are well trained looks like a joke.
If we consider a war scenario and all their equipment at 50% we will have to face 100 out of the around 220 MKIs (consider the strenght of 100 MKIs e.g range payload) 25 out of the 50 M2Ks, 33 out of 66 Mig29, 70 out of 140 Jaguars, 40 out of 87 Mig 27 and 100 out of of the 240 mig 21 add to this the Mig 29k of navy we will have to face a total of 404 fully combat capable jets.
Consider the mighty navy with 9 frigates without any adequate modern air defence and the subs with our mighty airforce.
How will we face and survive in such a scenario?
LOL@"How will we face and survive in such a scenario?" you seem pretty defeated mentally
 
Our strategy looks same like that of a suicide bomber who plans to kill people at the cost of his own life.
We claim that we are a defensive force and have no aggressive policies to hide our weakness but we must have at least the power to inflict damage to the aggressor and survive not like the suicide bomber.

Hi,

That is the absolutely the most shocking truth that you have stated---.
 
The Same Elitist Mindset that our military had since independance--the real cause of our misfortunes.
Civilians damned civilians stay away from talking about the GODS of Pakistan!

Far from it, the most enlightened opinions I have heard ever were from Civilians. Maybe you should open your mind towards the military giving their specialist opinion about their specialty.
 
Far from it, the most enlightened opinions I have heard ever were from Civilians. Maybe you should open your mind towards the military giving their specialist opinion about their specialty.
No doubt I appreciate their expertise and services but when to mock the civilians, as you did, That too consistently, that is some thing that represent their mindset. and that mindset is deplorable.
 
LOL@"How will we face and survive in such a scenario?" you seem pretty defeated mentally
My brother defeat comes after war not before and it is probable under the current circumstances given if you accept the reality that we lack too much and we plan not according to the requirements and the current threats and modern warfare, look at the 1300 ton saar 5 of Israel and compare it to any of our naval ship from 2500 to 4100 ton.
 
Pretty important considering the discussion going on.

http://www.news.com.au/world/nato-s...a/news-story/fa4589195aac8e7fc13e8b331fffcf91
But NATO’s ability to locate such submarines — once its staple trade — is now in doubt.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States — and in particular the United Kingdom — have allowed their submarine hunting abilities to wane.

Britain no longer has any sub-hunting aircraft, and its few remaining anti-submarine frigates are rapidly approaching the end of their useful lives.

In recent years the British government has repeatedly had to appeal to its European and American allies for the loan of aircraft and ships to tracking down Russian spy submarines believed to have been lurking of the coast of Scotland.

The US is similarly having to cope with outmoded technology and techniques, though its new P-8 Poseidon submarine hunting version of the 737-800 airliner is taking part in this operation.
 
Should had gone for 4 S-20's, and maybe 4 Type 214's or S-80 subs.
 
Here is my take on the publicly available information. A submarine's strength lies in silent hunting of lone prays. As soon as you get many ships in close proximity, some of which have ASW systems available, the sub loses its advantage.

The Indian navy knows this. Hence, they will evolve their doctrine to ensure all valuable assets are at all times accompanied by ASW elements. Given they are up against 8 or more submarines, they will need a small flotilla to ensure effective counter-measures.

This plays to PN's strengths IF they are open to launching nuclear armed ballistic missiles from land into the midst of attacking flotillas. In the immediate aftermath, Pakistani subs will be able to pick off any stragglers.

PN could also equip the subs with 'tactical nukes' which basically emerge from the water and detonote in the air. Indian flotillas would live in fear of any Pak submarine sighting.

If India tries to break up its attack formations, it immediately plays into PN's hands because small pairs are prone to subs hunting in a pack.

PN will need to invest in proper shielding of the subs in radioactive waters.

@MastanKhan @Khafee @Naif al Hilali @Sarge @Oscar @Horus @Zarvan @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Windjammer

I do not agree, older diesel electric submarines had two disadvantages.
one, their battery power was limited and they have to surface or snorkel to recharge it which resulted in more chances of detection. Also they had to limit their speed greatly to increase battery time. This was the major disadvantage which led to undoing of german submarine fleet in WW2 when ships got radars. At 1-2 knots they could not get far to safety from radar detection to surface. For example, submarines built in 60s had battery power of about 6-8 hours at 5 knots, but at 1-2 knots could remain submerged for 18-20 hours and than needed to resurface/snorkel for 2 hours to recharge batteries.
Second, by 60s they had at best unguided active homing torpedoes which resulted in constraints on firing as well as no confirmation whether target was hit or not until they can verify at periscope depth which was risky.

Modern submarines have much longer battery power and with AIP can extend it significantly, e.g. If a submarine has AIP with endurance of 20 days at 5 knots, this does not mean it must surface after 20 days. Depending upon its mission and speed it maintains to get in its area of operation and out, it can remain submerged for significantly longer duration possibly for the entirety of its mission. Also oxygen based AIPs can recharge their tanks and batteries quickly if needed via snorkeling. Depending upon operational requirements, a submarine can be designed to remain fully submerged for entirety of its operation and food stock.

Being very silent and most active sonars limited to at best tens of nautical miles and with newer cable controlled battery powered passive torpedoes and anti ship missiles, such a submarine can actually take on more than a couple of surface threats. A wolf pack of 2-3 such subs can hunt and destroy a sizeable battle group.

Indian Navy has a different strategy, it is planning to project power away from its home. PN strategy is to defend its coast and important assets and try to keep open vital lines to gulf and red sea. I agree with you that it is short on both surface and submerged elements presently but it is trying to rectify this. It is setting up an AShM based coastal defence system, It is increasing it's submarine fleet and also inducting more fast petrol boats with AShMs and probably may induct a few more lighter frigates in future. Also PAF has setup relevant assets with air-surface munitions to provide a good ranged umbrella. This will ensure that it will have a balanced defence force with capability to strike and keep IN fleet vary of getting closer.
What will be the purpose of inducting more surface vessels? Do you want PN to get out of its safety umbrella to strike an Indian battle group?
Naval battles because of mobility of surface and submerged combatants have always tended quickly to turn into fleet to fleet battles. That will be done deal against Indian western fleet.
Lets suppose you can some how, probably using Aladdin's lamp, secure finances and increase your frigates strength to 20+, also now that we are day dreaming lets throw in a few top notch destroyers as well.
Now against a 40-50 ship opposing fleet with its own air cover, what will be the result? You will have your a$$ handed over to you..
Historian will forget about Nielson's victory or American victory in battle of midway and will remember our stupidity for a long time.
 
I do not agree, older diesel electric submarines had two disadvantages.
one, their battery power was limited and they have to surface or snorkel to recharge it which resulted in more chances of detection. Also they had to limit their speed greatly to increase battery time. This was the major disadvantage which led to undoing of german submarine fleet in WW2 when ships got radars. At 1-2 knots they could not get far to safety from radar detection to surface. For example, submarines built in 60s had battery power of about 6-8 hours at 5 knots, but at 1-2 knots could remain submerged for 18-20 hours and than needed to resurface/snorkel for 2 hours to recharge batteries.
Second, by 60s they had at best unguided active homing torpedoes which resulted in constraints on firing as well as no confirmation whether target was hit or not until they can verify at periscope depth which was risky.

Modern submarines have much longer battery power and with AIP can extend it significantly, e.g. If a submarine has AIP with endurance of 20 days at 5 knots, this does not mean it must surface after 20 days. Depending upon its mission and speed it maintains to get in its area of operation and out, it can remain submerged for significantly longer duration possibly for the entirety of its mission. Also oxygen based AIPs can recharge their tanks and batteries quickly if needed via snorkeling. Depending upon operational requirements, a submarine can be designed to remain fully submerged for entirety of its operation and food stock.

Being very silent and most active sonars limited to at best tens of nautical miles and with newer cable controlled battery powered passive torpedoes and anti ship missiles, such a submarine can actually take on more than a couple of surface threats. A wolf pack of 2-3 such subs can hunt and destroy a sizeable battle group.

Indian Navy has a different strategy, it is planning to project power away from its home. PN strategy is to defend its coast and important assets and try to keep open vital lines to gulf and red sea. I agree with you that it is short on both surface and submerged elements presently but it is trying to rectify this. It is setting up an AShM based coastal defence system, It is increasing it's submarine fleet and also inducting more fast petrol boats with AShMs and probably may induct a few more lighter frigates in future. Also PAF has setup relevant assets with air-surface munitions to provide a good ranged umbrella. This will ensure that it will have a balanced defence force with capability to strike and keep IN fleet vary of getting closer.
What will be the purpose of inducting more surface vessels? Do you want PN to get out of its safety umbrella to strike an Indian battle group?
Naval battles because of mobility of surface and submerged combatants have always tended quickly to turn into fleet to fleet battles. That will be done deal against Indian western fleet.
Lets suppose you can some how, probably using Aladdin's lamp, secure finances and increase your frigates strength to 20+, also now that we are day dreaming lets throw in a few top notch destroyers as well.
Now against a 40-50 ship opposing fleet with its own air cover, what will be the result? You will have your a$$ handed over to you..
Historian will forget about Nielson's victory or American victory in battle of midway and will remember our stupidity for a long time.
I believe we have had the pertinent technical and information based analysis here
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-navy-the-phoenix-rises.454569/#post-8789739
 
I do not agree, older diesel electric submarines had two disadvantages.
one, their battery power was limited and they have to surface or snorkel to recharge it which resulted in more chances of detection. Also they had to limit their speed greatly to increase battery time. This was the major disadvantage which led to undoing of german submarine fleet in WW2 when ships got radars. At 1-2 knots they could not get far to safety from radar detection to surface. For example, submarines built in 60s had battery power of about 6-8 hours at 5 knots, but at 1-2 knots could remain submerged for 18-20 hours and than needed to resurface/snorkel for 2 hours to recharge batteries.
Second, by 60s they had at best unguided active homing torpedoes which resulted in constraints on firing as well as no confirmation whether target was hit or not until they can verify at periscope depth which was risky.

Modern submarines have much longer battery power and with AIP can extend it significantly, e.g. If a submarine has AIP with endurance of 20 days at 5 knots, this does not mean it must surface after 20 days. Depending upon its mission and speed it maintains to get in its area of operation and out, it can remain submerged for significantly longer duration possibly for the entirety of its mission. Also oxygen based AIPs can recharge their tanks and batteries quickly if needed via snorkeling. Depending upon operational requirements, a submarine can be designed to remain fully submerged for entirety of its operation and food stock.

Being very silent and most active sonars limited to at best tens of nautical miles and with newer cable controlled battery powered passive torpedoes and anti ship missiles, such a submarine can actually take on more than a couple of surface threats. A wolf pack of 2-3 such subs can hunt and destroy a sizeable battle group.

Indian Navy has a different strategy, it is planning to project power away from its home. PN strategy is to defend its coast and important assets and try to keep open vital lines to gulf and red sea. I agree with you that it is short on both surface and submerged elements presently but it is trying to rectify this. It is setting up an AShM based coastal defence system, It is increasing it's submarine fleet and also inducting more fast petrol boats with AShMs and probably may induct a few more lighter frigates in future. Also PAF has setup relevant assets with air-surface munitions to provide a good ranged umbrella. This will ensure that it will have a balanced defence force with capability to strike and keep IN fleet vary of getting closer.
What will be the purpose of inducting more surface vessels? Do you want PN to get out of its safety umbrella to strike an Indian battle group?
Naval battles because of mobility of surface and submerged combatants have always tended quickly to turn into fleet to fleet battles. That will be done deal against Indian western fleet.
Lets suppose you can some how, probably using Aladdin's lamp, secure finances and increase your frigates strength to 20+, also now that we are day dreaming lets throw in a few top notch destroyers as well.
Now against a 40-50 ship opposing fleet with its own air cover, what will be the result? You will have your a$$ handed over to you..
Historian will forget about Nielson's victory or American victory in battle of midway and will remember our stupidity for a long time.
You have completely failed to even consider my basic premise and have gone off on a tangent. I did not say a submarine's main disadvantage is its lack of stealth or the time it can remain submerged. I said a submarine's main disadvantage is that it reveals it's position by attacking and it has a low speed. A navy the size of IN can respond by saturating the surrounding area with depth charges they don't even have to detect the sub on their radars. So we counter such saturation attacks by wielding nuclear tipped missiles which makes any large naval formations a moot point. I don't see how whatever you have written applies to my post.
 
My brother defeat comes after war not before and it is probable under the current circumstances given if you accept the reality that we lack too much and we plan not according to the requirements and the current threats and modern warfare, look at the 1300 ton saar 5 of Israel and compare it to any of our naval ship from 2500 to 4100 ton.

Hi,

Thank you for some some excellent posts---. Young and adult pakistanis don't realize that naval weapons must be ordered 10-15 years before you want to be in a position to fully utilize their capabilities---.
 

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