Pakistan must not be used for terror, Singh tells Zardari

[muse]

Indians and for that matter Pakistanis, are lucky to have Dr. Singh as Premier of India. Fair minded, calm, composed, highly skilled, dedicated to stability - I think these are excellent qualities for a politician and bureaucrat.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No need to go circle over the crisp and clear message from PM Dr Manmohan Singh which is the thread title. Pakistan PM's embarrassment sums it all.

MMS's statement in fact drops the canards that lead to these 'circular arguments'.

The rest of you would be wise to follow his lead and focus on that which is true, instead of unsubstantiated allegations and a blame game.

 

[jeypore]

MMS's statement in fact drops the canards that lead to these 'circular arguments'.

The rest of you would be wise to follow his lead and focus on that which is true, instead of unsubstantiated allegations and a blame game.

Likewise, same with you Mr. AM.

 

[DarkStar]

As Pakistan is in the midst of its own war against terrorists, with various allegations of Indian support and funding to those very terrorists, and countless innocents and jawans dying in this war imposed upon us while infiltration into IOK is almost at zero due to Pakistan's efforts...

I find Manmohan's statement ill timed, ill advised, ill thought, insensitive and downright offensive. Each time i read those words, I feel the rage welling up inside of me. To use such undiplomatic language at a time wh en they know that we have sent our forces to our western borders shows up the true nature of the Bharati leadership.

Crass.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Likewise, same with you Mr. AM.

Please notice that I have been shutting down threads based on allegations such as uncircumcised penises etc.

I have also limited threads (closed them after some time) on allegations that India is destabilizing Pakistan from Afghanistan. Some exceptions have been Musharraf's recent comments in this regard, given that he is a former COAS and President, and therefore a credible source.

My first post in this thread was in fact appreciative of MMS's comments in that he dropped the contentious allegations, and focused on an argument Pakistan has accepted - that the Mumbai attacks were at least partially planned and executed from Pakistani soil, and that Pakistan should act to prevent such attacks in the future.

I don't think Pakistan expected Mumbai to happen in the first place, so it will likely try doubly hard to ensure that something like it does not occur again, especially given our expanding war against extremism.

That said, there is no foolproof guarantee that Pakistan can provide, and India has its own homegrown terrorist groups. Indians and the GoI should understand that.

 

[jeypore]

As Pakistan is in the midst of its own war against terrorists, with various allegations of Indian support and funding to those very terrorists, and countless innocents and jawans dying in this war imposed upon us while infiltration into IOK is almost at zero due to Pakistan's efforts...

I find Manmohan's statement ill timed, ill advised, ill thought, insensitive and downright offensive. Each time i read those words, I feel the rage welling up inside of me. To use such undiplomatic language at a time wh en they know that we have sent our forces to our western borders shows up the true nature of the Bharati leadership.

Crass.

Welcome back Dark.

I must disagree, I would point out that Pakistan establishment has created more fervor by not taking actionable steps towards the mumbai attack. They have not shown key person to be jailed, aloud organisations that are banned to be reopenned under a different names, etc...

And the most important development for me atleast is, what angered Pakistan's establishment was the constant finger pointing done by India. But this clearly shows, atleast from the Indian side, they are not backing down. India is gearing/positioning very hard on soft deplomacy (which I do not like because it never works).

 

[jeypore]

Please notice that I have been shutting down threads based on allegations such as uncircumcised penises etc.

I have also limited threads (closed them after some time) on allegations that India is destabilizing Pakistan from Afghanistan. Some exceptions have been Musharraf's recent comments in this regard, given that he is a former COAS and President, and therefore a credible source.

My first post in this thread was in fact appreciative of MMS's comments in that he dropped the contentious allegations, and focused on an argument Pakistan has accepted - that the Mumbai attacks were at least partially planned and executed from Pakistani soil, and that Pakistan should act to prevent such attacks in the future.

I don't think Pakistan expected Mumbai to happen in the first place, so it will likely try doubly hard to ensure that something like it does not occur again, especially given our expanding war against extremism.

That said, there is no foolproof guarantee that Pakistan can provide, and India has its own homegrown terrorist groups. Indians and the GoI should understand that.

Likewise, tonning down on allegation without a credible source should become a norm. Even though personally I do think that Pakistan establishment had a hand to play in the mumbai attack, but without a credible source, I have personally, in my post, have been blaming the establishment of not acting on it, instead of saying they are involved.

Do not get me wrong also, I have full faith in current administration well being, but from outside perspective, I see lots of divergent on there goals. It is also surprising for me to see Zardari from mental allegations, to financial stress, to US puppet is still standing around.

 

[Energon]

The employment of terrorism by India on so wide a scale as to split apart a nation is something yet to be matched by Pakistan.

Pakistan split primarily on account of its inability to govern itself adequately; and India's involvement which led to the formalization of the split came through official military channels and an open declaration of war. The preamble to the war was a byproduct of what Pakistan itself started earlier.... but we have already been through this numerous times as malay rightly points out.

Pakistan's adoption of terrorism as its primary tool of foreign policy has very little if anything in common with India or most other nations in the world, as are its effects and consequences (which are clearly evident to us today).

Given that we are not supporting the groups in doing so any more, a bit of a moot point.

The jury is still out on this... which is not to say that I don't believe in the current GoPs earnest desire to make this a reality. But it'll take some time and definitive findings from multiple credible sources for me to endorse this point. They certainly seem to be on the right path so far.

 

[muse]

statement ill timed, ill advised, ill thought, insensitive and downright offensive. Each time i read those words, I feel the rage welling up inside of me. To use such undiplomatic language at a time wh en they know that we have sent our forces to our western borders shows up the true nature of the Bharati leadership.

Keep in mind that his audience is an Indian audience, he must meet their political expectation, while reaching out to Pakistan, lets give credit where it is due.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan split primarily on account of its inability to govern itself adequately; and India's involvement which led to the formalization of the split came through official military channels and an open declaration of war. The preamble to the war was a byproduct of what Pakistan itself started earlier.... but we have already been through this numerous times as malay rightly points out.

India played its role in exacerbating the events that led to the situation spiraling out of control, including training and arming insurgents in camps in India - the intent was always to intervene 'formally'.

Pakistan's adoption of terrorism as its primary tool of foreign policy has very little if anything in common with India or most other nations in the world, as are its effects and consequences (which are clearly evident to us today).

Sorry, but East Pakistan, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka clearly indicate how India has as much as Pakistan used 'terrorism as an instrument of State policy'.

Just because you refuse to acknowledge that history or obfuscate it does not change it.

The jury is still out on this... which is not to say that I don't believe in the current GoPs earnest desire to make this a reality. But it'll take some time and definitive findings from multiple credible sources for me to endorse this point. They certainly seem to be on the right path so far.

The evidence in terms of significantly lower cross LoC infiltration and attacks within Kashmir, in the words of India's own defence analysts and military officials, is clear, even if you do not wish to admit it for the sake of bolstering your own argument.

 

[Energon]

Keep in mind that his audience is an Indian audience, he must meet their political expectation, while reaching out to Pakistan, lets give credit where it is due.

At the same time he can genuinely reach out to Pakistan only because of the paradigm shift the government has taken in regards to accosting militancy and radicalism. The credit goes both ways IMHO

 

[Energon]

Sorry, but East Pakistan, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka clearly indicate how India has as much as Pakistan used 'terrorism as an instrument of State policy'.

No it doesn't, dissimilar comparisons. And there's nothing going on in Afghanistan.

The evidence in terms of significantly lower cross LoC infiltration and attacks within Kashmir, in the words of India's own defence analysts and military officials, is clear, even if you do not wish to admit it for the sake of bolstering your own argument.

The evidence suggests just that.. lower LoC crossings and infiltrations. I am unable to come to the same conclusion as you at this point.

 

[wtf]

Please notice that I have been shutting down threads based on allegations such as uncircumcised penises etc.

I have also limited threads (closed them after some time) on allegations that India is destabilizing Pakistan from Afghanistan. Some exceptions have been Musharraf's recent comments in this regard, given that he is a former COAS and President, and therefore a credible source.

My first post in this thread was in fact appreciative of MMS's comments in that he dropped the contentious allegations, and focused on an argument Pakistan has accepted - that the Mumbai attacks were at least partially planned and executed from Pakistani soil, and that Pakistan should act to prevent such attacks in the future.

I don't think Pakistan expected Mumbai to happen in the first place, so it will likely try doubly hard to ensure that something like it does not occur again, especially given our expanding war against extremism.

That said, there is no foolproof guarantee that Pakistan can provide, and India has its own homegrown terrorist groups. Indians and the GoI should understand that.

I earlier said I'll leave the thread because of blame game, but I think I have something tangential (or meta to the discussion) to say.

I think the recent moderation activity has actually significantly improved the threads. I should thank you for that Agno.

I think we are at a point where threads are actually constructive and people can learn from each other. For example, until I went hunting for evidence against Hafeez Sayeed I did not know that the only publicly available evidence against him was a confessional statement. That colors in the "disappointed" comment (a mild diplomatic statement) from India on his release rather than a protest.

So now I think that either

1) India had expected Pakistan to find more evidence that would be available in Pakistan and present it in court and Pakistan is unable to.
2) There is something being swept under the carpet by Pakistan
or
3) Pakistan did a big swoop arrest of anyone they could get hold of. Probably as a panic reaction on the ban of JuD by UN. I still believe that he is a pretty evil man, but I can see how he might not actually be directly involved in the Mumbai attacks. So now Pakistan released him again (just like after the Lal Masjid ops).

Before this thread, I would have assumed only 1&2. I'll now add possibility 3, until more evidence is publicly known.

So Agno, thanks for making the threads more about content and less about opinion/emotion. And after the brief advertorial, let the flame wars continue

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No it doesn't, dissimilar comparisons. And there's nothing going on in Afghanistan.

And how so?

What are the charges against Pakistan?

1. Support for the Kashmiri freedom movement in internationally recognized disputed territory, which you call terrorism.

2. Support for the Taliban regime in attempting to have a favorable dispensation in Afghanistan.

What are the charges against India?

1. Support for the East Pakistan separatists, which I consider terrorism, reciprocating your charge against the Kashmiri freedom fighters.

2. Creation and support of the LTTE against a sovereign Sri Lankan government - the repercussions from that spot of adventurism are for everyone to see.

3. Support for the Northern Alliance warlords, to stop Pakistan from gaining a favorable regime in Afghanistan and increase Indian influence.

I clearly see India using 'terrorism as an instrument of state policy here' - if not, then I fail to see how you can make that charge against Pakistan.

The problem is that belief you have that India's sht doesn't stink. As I suggested to Malay, get off your self-righteous high horse and accept the fact that India has its own skeletons and 'employment of terrorism as an instrument of state policy' - that has been clearly illustrated. no matter how much you attempt to obfuscate the issue by pontificating over minutiae in each instance of Indian adventurism so as to make it appear 'not terrorism', distinct from the policies pursued by Pakistan.

The evidence suggests just that.. lower LoC crossings and infiltrations. I am unable to come to the same conclusion as you at this point.

The evidence is clear, I am not sure what significantly lower LoC infiltration, and no more assitance by the PA (in terms of the alleged covering fire) and reduced attacks mean other than the fact that Pakistan has helped to almost eliminate the insurgency.

The difference in the insurgency - pre 2002 compared to post 2002 - is remarkable.

And these changes coincide with the new direction Pakistan's Kashmir policy took after 2002, and is bolstered by the fact that the military establishment (through Musharraf) and the political leadership have all supported the general position espoused by Musharraf - dialog and compromise over Kashmir.

It really can't get any clearer then this - changes in both the political rhetoric and significant changes on the ground in the actual insurgency. I think there is an inability to deal with Pakistan without a sense of moral superiority, and acknowledging Pakistan's contributions to peace and India's flaws denies that sense of moral superiority.

 

[afriend]

As Pakistan is in the midst of its own war against terrorists, with various allegations of Indian support and funding to those very terrorists, and countless innocents and jawans dying in this war imposed upon us while infiltration into IOK is almost at zero due to Pakistan's efforts...

I find Manmohan's statement ill timed, ill advised, ill thought, insensitive and downright offensive. Each time i read those words, I feel the rage welling up inside of me. To use such undiplomatic language at a time wh en they know that we have sent our forces to our western borders shows up the true nature of the Bharati leadership.

Crass.

I would have to dis agree with you on that. Pakistan is fighting Taliban, but that is Pakistan internal matter. But however Mr.Pm have conveyed his concerns regarding matters effecting our country. The same way zardari is not going to talk about Taliban fighting with India. Because India is not a party to it. So the discussions where done basically on the bilateral issues and not each others internal issues. Hence MMS comments are not at all ill timed but timed perfectly in context to the bilateral relations between the two countries.