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Pakistan missile hits Afghan mosque

"...does it ring "reasonable", that the Pakistani state is supporting the same Talib it is also waging war against?"

Good question if asked fairly. It wasn't.

We'll see, won't we? Has the Pakistani gov't and army started waging war against those whom have rested comfortably on Pakistani lands while making war on Afghanistan yet? You know...Omar, Hekmatyar, Haqqani?

Seven and one-half years on the land of the world's seventh largest army has a foreign taliban gov't sat with it's own minions and you ask the above question of STRENGTH?

Cajones to do so in the face of the simple facts...:tsk:
 
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Fair enough - 7 and 1/2 years after the world's most technologically advanced army began operating in Afghanistan, presumably it can lay claims to have eradicated the talib? or is that unfair to pose as well?


Friends of the opinon that the an army of occupation warring against a insurrectionist movement with a ethnic and religious hue and a national army in a populist political melieu fighting against an insurrection which began as movement in support of the insurrgency in Afghanistan and which is supported by Al-Qaida, are different and comparison between them should be undertaken with caution, with precision, so that it may help us understand more clearly.
 
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"Fair enough - 7 and 1/2 years after the world's most technologically advanced army began operating in Afghanistan, presumably it can lay claims to have eradicated the talib? or is that unfair to pose as well?"

As usual, you've failed to mention the other advanced armies engaged in the same. Ours is the largest to travel 6,000 miles to eradicate these beasts. We fight and die for Afghanistan, as do our friends, and have every damned day since we arrived.

Have you fought? For your own lands? Spread 300 kms or so from your Indian border to Quetta? How far must your army travel to find Omar's men in Baluchistan or Haqqani and Hekmatyar.

Trust me that I KNOW you've lost 4,000 good men since 2001. Every live laid down for your country. Every one of their lives squandered as you negotiated your way BACKWARDS.

We are in Afghanistan by choice. We've not yet been invaded by the defeated taliban gov't and army of Afghanistan in our home countries. We are also attempting to fight this war WHILE YOU PROVIDE THE SANCTUARY NECESSARY TO THE TALIBAN'S SURVIVAL AND WAR-MAKING ABILITY.

Without such, there'd be no insurgency and the ANA and Afghan gov't could be raised in relative security. Hell, with no demand for weapons, opium would likely be half the problem it is now. Speculation by myself but well-founded given the correlation of opium to the taliban strongholds adjacent your southern borders.

Just now your citizenry, gov't., and army SO deserve and demand the applause of the world for doing what ANY self-respecting NATION would have done for the dignity of it's own sovereignty eight years ago...in FATA.

Now, though, it's SWAT and Buner.

The jury's out and we'll see what stamina you hold for this fight and how you improve with OUR money to fight your war for as long as you feel the need.

I've yet to understand the simple ease with which you tolerated such a conquest at all but it's certainly made clear why Omar, Haqqani, and Hekmatyar have found no friction further west on your lands.

No anger, Muse. Just some equivocating observations of my own to help mitigate matters along on behalf of poor STRENGTH who hardly knows what he's getting into here.
 
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We are in Afghanistan by choice. We've not yet been invaded by the defeated taliban gov't and army of Afghanistan in our home countries. We are also attempting to fight this war WHILE YOU PROVIDE THE SANCTUARY NECESSARY TO THE TALIBAN'S SURVIVAL AND WAR-MAKING ABILITY
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This is but obfuscation and I regret that you find your position so weak that you must recourse to it. Whereas an exposition would help us better unbderstand the situation you recourse to accusation.

The FATA, whether we agree it ought to have been or not, was not administerd by the Pakistani government such that Pakistan were unable and it may be argued, unwilling, to assert itself in these regions, additionally we must be mindful that wheras in Afghanistan there is no national or regional political opinion acting upon the occupation forces, Pakistan's political melieu is different, primarlily by virtue of it's existence.

Now coming to your accusation, - lets examine it's merits - but before we do, lets see if we can find common ground - can we agree that Talib from Afghanistan have sought refuge among Pashtun in the FATA? but lets refine this, not just Taliban, but all manner of Afghan political opinion and all varieties of Afghan ethnicites have taken the open border and found refuge in not just FATA but all Pakistan - will you not agree?


You may ask, well, why after 7 and 1/2 years have Pakistan not been able to assert governmental control in FATA - the answer is of course, politics - you may suggest that the FAUJ has been unwilling to engage - as a military person yourself, you understand the difficulty of engaging without political support or dithering political support. I will and I think Pakistanis of all political opinion will grant, that shaping political concensus in Pakistan is a nightmare.

However; let us also pose a question to you, why have the U.S been unsuccesful in Afghanistan - We have heard from you that it is because Talib seek refuge in Pakistan - while we agree that there is much traffic across the open border, we do ask why it is that U.S and the coalition forces are not placed at the border to seal the border, we do not wish to challenege the U.S army by questioning it's "cojones", this is counter productive and unseemly, but the question does deserve public consideration, does it not?

Afghanistan under U.S occupation remains a threat to it's neighbor Pakistan, does it not? After all, why after 7 and 1/2 years have the U.S, not been able to ensure the Afghaistan regime of karzai has not recognized it's border with Pakistan? Curious both the U.S and it's Afghan protege insist Pakistan secure a border that the protege does not recognize.

Now to your suggestion that the insurgency in Afghanistan exist because talib exist in Pakistan - allow me to suggest that it may the other way around, that is to say that the insurgency in Pakistan started in support of ethnic Pashtun and those who share the ideologiy of the Talib and that today an end to insurgency in Pakistan is directly related to the end of the insurgency in Afghanistan and that we must all hope the U.S. is succesful in killing of the Talib in Afghanistan
 
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"...the Pakistani government such that Pakistan were unable and it may be argued, unwilling, to assert itself in these regions..."

"unable" doesn't logically assume precedent over "unwilling". If willing we can then judge ability. Not before. As that's not been seriously tested, let's assume "unwilling", shall we?

We secure Afghanistan's borders from 6,000 miles away better than you do your own.

Political milieu? Your army's intonations on nat'l security made certain EXACTLY the nat'l narrative you embraced in 2001-2002-preservation of your proxy capability in Afghanistan.

"...all manner of Afghan political opinion and all varieties of Afghan ethnicites have taken the open border and found refuge in not just FATA but all Pakistan - will you not agree?"

Really? Sure if "all manner" encompasses the variety of Pashtu perspectives from Haqqani & Hekmatyar to Omar. Tajiks, turkomen, uzbeks, and Hazaras from Afghanistan fleeing to safety in Pakistan?

For every rule there is an exception. Do you have some notable exceptions you'd like to highlight? Those afghan refugee camps around Quetta-are they dominated by any ethnicity but afghan pashtu?

NATO, fortunately, faces very few problems among any ethnicity in Afghanistan save the Pashtu- and not even all of them.

Were Pakistan to have been sufficiently capable in 2001, America would have likely been forced to make war with you to achieve our objectives in Afghanistan. That wasn't and isn't the case but is an accurate reflection of your nat'l hatred for us and your nat'l objectives for Afghanistan- a pashtu proxy gov't pliable to Pakistan.

Even still, for five and one-half years of taliban rule Pakistan was unable to bring resolution to your western borders. Now you ask America to settle for you that which is bilateral and requires the cooperation of a government that is rapidly coming to hate your guts.

Smooth. Let me know when we take care of that Kashmir thingy too.

Should you wish to suggest that the afghan insurgency needs no sanctuary in Pakistan to thrive we'll end in loggerheads as your country's citizens would be the only to suggest such.

If not, then it's clear that sanctuary means everything to Omar and he assiduously protects his relationship with the GoP and the PA. Have we seen a SINGLE attack upon the afghan taliban in your country? How about Hekmatyar? Haqqani? In turn, have any of the forces belonging to these men been once accused of malfeasance inside Pakistan.

Jury's out. Blowback is responsible for your recent, ever-so-hesitant dip into the hot tub. Were things cool on the home front, we'd see no movement whatsoever. No need as it would all be directed at Afghanistan.

We'll see about Waziristan in June- if it goes down. Until then, this is the usual self-absorbed mess and your stamina for such has repeatedly proven tenuous.

More so than ours.
 
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S2

It's no wonder people here think you have an affinity for the false flag thing - you are sometimes more catholic than pope, so to speak - and you do not realize who your interlocutor is.

On the other hand, there is this, and we should all consider carefully, as it is representative of the diversity of opinion found in the Pakistani press regarding both Afghanistan and U.S policy:

Making AfPak work
Shahzad Chaudhry


Serious re-work is required on Barack Obama’s AfPak strategy. For starters, it does not have a clearly defined end-state; next, it is not inclusive enough to forge a consensual stability paradigm in the geo-political context for the region.

First, the end-state. Obama’s strategy does not state what shape does the US wants to leave Afghanistan in. Ideally, though, a democratic, progressive country with stable institutions, and a sustainable economy minus the narco-production and trafficking; a place where the US could return every now and then to respond to its interests in the region.

These may well be valid interests for the US, but are they achievable? At least the strategy does not seem to indicate any of this; it remains more of a wish and a prayer without its implementing elements.

Now, what does it not factor in? While it targets Al Qaeda, it does not mention the Taliban. What does the US hope to achieve with the Taliban?

They come in two varieties. The original Afghan Taliban, who were dethroned after 9/11, are Pashtuns and have been engaged in a bloody war with the foreign forces in Afghanistan. The Pashtuns comprise 56 percent of the Afghan population, and are estranged with the ruling dispensation because of disproportionately low political representation and the presence of foreign troops. Killing the 15 million or so Afghan Pashtuns may not be feasible; also it might take an entire generation of war to achieve so — a difficult proposition for the US war machine, which is more used to achieving quick, clearly-stated objectives; else they descend into Vietnam mode.

If the US is pinning hopes on the Pakistani military to do them the favour, they may be in for a surprise — the first category of the Taliban inspired the formation of the second, the Pakistani Taliban. These are more ferocious, and dangerously committed to their cause, i.e. capturing space and power in Pakistan to carve out an Islamic emirate of their own. The Pakistani military is engaged in a full-scale conflict now to prevent this nuclear nation from falling to the Pakistani version of the Taliban.

There is sufficient redemption though. First, the Pakistani Taliban are a small minority; the larger Pakistani populace does not relate to their brand of Islam or governance. Also, they do not carry the popular support of their Pashtun kin. But this fight will still be a long haul what with the coalescing of the two strands of the Taliban, suitably splattered with Al Qaeda elements of Arab, Tajik and Uzbek origins.

The Pakistani military is more than likely to dominate this struggle now that it has set its heart to it, but will need to stay the course for a long, long time. A lack of support from the people, the politicians, or the world community will only encourage it to throw in the towel and let things be. The consequence of the military by-standing the issue can only be horrendous, and most politely stated, non-salutary to American geo-political objectives.

That is the worst case scenario, hopefully avoided through rectifying processes to cleanse Pakistan’s tribal regions, but what to do with the Afghan Taliban, assuming of course that Al Qaeda, being the centre of gravity of the American effort, does finally stand dismantled, defeated and destroyed?

The absence of the anvil in a typical hammer-and-anvil manoeuvre is nowhere to be seen. Else, if and when the Pakistani military was to continue the sweep from north to south, it shall entail pushing the Afghan Taliban back to their original residence, backtracking through Tora Bora and the adjoining areas of Afghanistan. It would serve us well to remember that southern Afghanistan, from Helmand east to Kandahar and all along the eastern border till Kunar, is predominantly Pashtun and is hence the Taliban belt of influence. It may end up a welcome homecoming.

In another twist, the new US commander in Afghanistan, General McChrystal, is a green beret special operations commander, who is more likely to get to business on the other end, pushing the Afghan Taliban, from the south in particular, into the tribal regions of Pakistan, earning temporary relief and justifying the addition of 21,000 troops to the US ORBAT in Afghanistan. What that will do to the Pakistani military designs can only be speculated. Even the worst killing fields of ‘The (great) Charge of the Lightning Brigade’ in the mid-west may stand to shame before the butchery that might take place in this counter-flow of militants.

This reinforces the question: what is the US trying to achieve in Afghanistan? And if these plans don’t complement Pakistan’s designs, God save Pakistan from the ensuing complexity. If it ever came to that — which is more than likely given the absolute absence of a joint military strategy between Pakistan and the US, and an absence of shared objectives in the real sense, not the superficial identification of shared concerns — what safety route do the Americans have to avoid the nightmare of a nuclear-armed Taliban state?

One reason why General McKiernan, the previous US commander in Afghanistan, needed to be replaced was that he was losing the urge for the fight, having been stationed in Afghanistan for over two years and having possibly judged the futility in the American cause, as indeed in the strategy. He is known to have opined that one could only lose from where the Americans were placed; remember General Petraeus voicing the same, that the war is neither won nor lost? McKiernan firmly believed in engaging with the Afghan Taliban and finding a way to make place for the Pashtuns in the government. McChrystal will defy that natural logic and rational thought for some time, and then become victim to the reality of what he will be forced to face: Afghanistan cannot be a stable state without the Pashtun getting his share of power. Hamid Karzai, or his band of Pashtun cohorts, are but only a band-aid on the festering wound of non-representation and exclusion.

As part of the complementary policy process, there is also an overly keen interest in replacing poppy as a cash crop in the predominantly Pashtun belt of Afghanistan with another crop. Cotton has been tried in Helmand with very limited success. Here, the capitalist notion of profit efficiency will hinder any effort. There is no other crop hardy enough to withstand the extreme climes of the area, as indeed nothing that pays as well within a procurement, refinement and distribution system that has been established and streamlined over decades. The bigger issue is: is such an established economy replaceable en bloc?

Superimpose that with another means of economic sustenance: more to the point in the current morass when operations are on in Swat to counter Talibanisation, the Nawai Pass from the neighbouring Kunar province of Afghanistan into Bajaur is as active as in any economic boom. The transit-trade agreement might just see the light of the day by the end of the year, but routes are agog with merchandise of the most precious variety making its way into Bajaur and onwards to Swat, Dir and Chitral. Non-custom paid vehicles, Talibs on their 4x4s with weapons of all varieties ply their trade without check. Why have the Americans or the Afghans not closed entry and smuggling into Pakistan?


The double-speak will need to end for Americans to convince all those in the know on their real objectives for sustainable peace and security in the region. There are gaps that need to be filled right away for AfPak to deliver. A point that Karzai made repeatedly in Washington on his recent visit needs recounting: money will not make the Americans buy love. But are they really looking for love?


Next week, the second gaping hole in Obama’s strategy.

The writer is a security and defence analyst. He can be contacted at shahzad.a.chaudhry@gmail.com
 
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S2

Perhaps it is useful to understand that accusations and questions do not exist on one side only -- but it is best to try and do away with questions altogther if we are make things work?
 
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We secure Afghanistan's borders from 6,000 miles away better than you do your own.
The Taliban come and go as they wish - Southern Afghanistan is but a promise for the future that increased troop levels are to fulfill.

What securing of borders are you talking about?
 
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"The Taliban come and go as they wish..."

No. They often die when attempting to cross the Afghan border from Pakistani sanctuary anywhere between Khost and Konar. If you doubt such, buy a ticket for home and try it yourself.

"What securing of borders are you talking about?"

This securing of borders. They ain't lookin' at honeys sun-bathing on the roofs.:lol:
 
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S-2,

Why had US not been able to convince Karzai (who knows he needs US support to survive) into reaching an agreement with Pakistan over the border?

This has a huge bearing on the future of this region; Karzai has persistently declined to do so and i do not see why he cannot be convinced to change his stance.

While many here suggest that Pakistan mine, fence the border despite the Afghan government, that means an act of WAR and is not very simple matter.
The area we casually discuss is not a very easy place to control by any means. I am sure you know well the restrictions imposed by the terrain.
Whereas nothing is impossible, political hurdles need to be removed.

We shall need constant patrolling and that is suicide without proper support structure, fall back areas, Observation posts etc.
Patrolling the border needs to be coupled with establishment of new check posts,bunkers and support infrastructure at all the feasible locations on the border, this shall be an act of WAR until the border is recognized.

Why is this aspect entirely ignored if the major headache to US and Afghanistan is from Tribal areas?

Does the Karzai Stance not bother you even 1% as both a military man and citizen of US?
 
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"Why had US not been able to convince Karzai (who knows he needs US support to survive) into reaching an agreement with Pakistan over the border?"

We need allied support to survive. The amount of pressure we can apply to a bi-lateral issue is minimal to nil, IMV, if Karzai retains the political pull he's thus far shown.

If you haven't noticed, he's proved amazingly adept at mobilizing the state machinery to chase most oppo candidates off and appears that he's survived this administration's hard feelings. I'm unsure yet to what extent. There's distance now that we didn't have with GWB but not enough.

Secondly, I don't know where this sits on OUR list of problems or how achievable we view this question. I say so in light of my questions back at A.M. on this same matter- why didn't you achieve such in the five and one-half years of taliban power in Afghanistan.

Could conditions have been any more favorable to Pakistan? You suggest that Karzai is reliant upon us. O.k.

I suggest that the taliban were even more reliant upon you. Three countries recognized them. Three. Only one shared a border with Afghanistan and that was Pakistan.

"While many here suggest that Pakistan mine, fence the border despite the Afghan government, that means an act of WAR..."

Sanctuary within your country from which a foreign army and it's government make war upon Afghanistan SHOULD be an act of war but isn't here.

I don't see fencing and mining to be an act of war so long as you are within your boundaries. Questionable? Move back and make it less questionable.

"...and is not very simple matter..."

That's more to the point. Any obstacle should be covered by fire and, minimally, direct, line-of-sight observation under all weather conditions 24/7. Both minefields and fencing constitute obstacles.

Both minefields and fencing is a prohibitive cost for purchase and construction. Your minefield must have depth-250 meters. It will be long- a couple of thousand kilometers from the Wakhan Corridor to the Zerah Depression.

Then there is the cultural issues of which I've little patience. I'm ready to break up the tribes but I know you guys consider that silly. If so, prove it and tolerate the back n' forth. If not, fence your side and accept the enmity that ensues.

Understand this, though (and I know you do), anything you do here will upset SOMEBODY for some reason and they don't need much to feel like fighting.

"The area we casually discuss is not a very easy place to control by any means. I am sure you know well the restrictions imposed by the terrain."

There are crossing points used daily and well-guarded by both F.C. and Afghan Border Police. Our own junior officers suggest that there's little problems at these locations. Well guarded and all crossing points manned with vehicles thoroughly checked. I believe that. If those points are vulnerable to anything, it would be car-bombs and we've occasionally suffered such.

It's the hills between the crossing points, though, that are the problem and, yes, the terrain imposes restrictions-to both sides. Rockets are an example- 122mm rockets have not and will not be an issue away from the border into the interior of Afghanistan. The firing apparatus is nothing with these weapons-basically prop them up in the general direction and an electrical charge to fire and off they go.

Weight and size, though, are an issue. Too much risk for the benefit by either mule, camel, or truck. However, the trails lead east-west and start at the base of these valleys and line either side all the way up to ridgetops at 9,000 ft plus along with cross-trails which connect. The trails, as you might imagine, are a MASSIVE network once mapped. So each valley represents multiple ingress routes.

There are sixteen U.S. infantry rifle platoons in Konar last I read. That's up from six late last year. Basically not quite two battalions that are sharing the battlespace which overlaps Nuristan and Nangahar but centers on Konar. You don't move here along the trails in less than platoon strength and best not do so without CAS or arty (preferably both) available.

Though approached with equanimity, we have no illusions in these valleys. We aren't liked and won't be liked for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with the more populous areas such as Asadabad- lumber smuggling and other nefarious interests that feel interfered with here.

Hope that helps.
 
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Thanks for the detailed reply

The control we exercised over Taliban was also limited since we also needed their goodwill.
Initially the world was not critical of them since all of us were expecting them to relieve Afghans of the terrible civil war and indeed in the beginning this is what they declared and most believed them.
It is sad that they became such totalitarian thugs and started mass killings of other sects, degrading women, imposing all kinds of restrictions on the U.N. aid missions and other NGOs.

Their hardcore supporters present in our Tribal areas overlapped both Pakistan and Afghanistan and they also would have been severely opposed to such an idea of dividing the tribes.

Still that is the past.
Things have become much more serious now with the allegations by US and Afghanistan to do more in securing the border.
What i want to say is...what border?

It almost seems like Pakistan is being put into a near impossible situation.
Pakistan has to stay in this same location, US can go back home if worst comes to worst.

If we really piss off all those Afghans (and Pakistanis) who are in this border area without any support and understanding from the Afghan government, that shall also be a foolish thing for us in both the short and long term.
It may cause them to unify with their relatives across the border and maybe all of them join the anti Pakistan ranks.
We cannot take a unilateral stand here, if problem is mutual why is the party which is much more vocal than Pakistan, almost 100% opposed to the logical solution?

I know tough decisions have to be taken but i do not see Karzai taking them and it is expected of Pakistan to alienate itself further from its own tribals and their kin across the border.

You know how much i hate TTP...still even if i had the choice this is one gamble which i wouldn't blindly indulge in unless my opposite from Afghanistan would also support it publicly.

My question to you still remains as to what you personally think is the priority here...is Karzai really doing enough in sealing the border?
Does his hypocritical stance of accusing Pakistan and then rejecting the Pakistan offer of border sealing not bother you even a little bit?
US landed into Afghanistan with all guns blazing and yet it cannot make Karzai change his stance...does this not point to many parameters over which US and by that matter even Pakistan do not have complete control?
Why is it then that all flak has being directed at Pakistan especially since bottleneck is not as much military as it is geopolitical?
 
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"The Taliban come and go as they wish..."

No. They often die when attempting to cross the Afghan border from Pakistani sanctuary anywhere between Khost and Konar. If you doubt such, buy a ticket for home and try it yourself.

"What securing of borders are you talking about?"

This securing of borders. They ain't lookin' at honeys sun-bathing on the roofs.:lol:
I don't have to try and cross the border to see how ineffective US/NATO efforts have been (and can you quit trolling and baiting with tripe like that in bold please - you are a senior member and an MP so act like it).

If US efforts were anywhere close to as effective in the overall strategy as you imply, there would not be an insurgent problem.

The fact is that hundreds of Taliban have moved into Pakistan from Afghanistan to carry out coordinated assaults on Pakistani positions, and if GoA and US complaints are to believed then the same is true in the reverse direction as well.

So what securing of borders have you done, except maybe those of Kabul? Like the Pakistanis, you are at best trying to accomplish that securing of borders, with nothing to indicate that you are doing any better than us.
 
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"I don't have to try and cross the border to see how ineffective US/NATO efforts have been..."

Apparently you do or you'd recognize that your western borders aren't the central issue. Only because, however, we have (barely) adequate troops from Khost to Konar to make the effort of those coming from Pakistan for destinations in the interior of Afghanistan very, very difficult.

Do you understand the players? If so, then you understand that there are a variety of personages in Konar, for example.

Who are indigenous to the area and opposed to the Afghan gov't and/or America?

Who are those from other areas (Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Kirghizstan) who assist out of allegiance/affiliation or a DESIRE to close with the Americans along the border? They've no intention in either case of proceeding further. Neither those indigenous nor those transiting down the Konar river valley from the Warkhan Corridor are, really, ANY responsibility of yours. Both, however, will have a deleterious effect along your side of that border too-again, for a variety of reasons.

Amazingly, a big portion of our issues there involve the local crime syndicates and lumber barons. They'll fight us, the Afghan border police and YOUR troops to assure their continued smuggling of timber. The uzbeks transiting down the Konar river valley are just looking for a fight, preferably with us but are, I suspect though am unsure, equally happy to lend their assistance to those fighting your forces in Bajaur.

Our concern is two-fold- how to extend the Afghan gov't writ of state there, which is decidedly opposed by the timber lords, and to attrit/degrade the infiltration of forces for provinces further west surrounding Kabul.

To date, I characterize our efforts in this area as adequate to good. Not great but good. I'd characterize our drug-control efforts there as good. I'd like to claim more given the decisive results but can't as I'm yet unsure the effect of a drought last year on this area's opium cultivation and to what extent efforts by key provincial leaders have taken permanent hold in the populace.

As there's a history of cultivation (and, apparently, domestic use), this is likely a long-term effort to dissuade. Still, America has had luck and success here. How much was luck and to what degree success can be sustained is central.

The south- Here's the problem and it's three-fold in my estimation-

1.) TERRAIN- the good here is that there's very little practical foliage/cover for infiltration from Quetta/Baluchistan. The bad? A wide open border extending hundreds of kilometers from Gardez through Kandahar and Helmand to Nimroz. Desert. Lots of it except the green zones. The land is geologically far more flat with none of the channelizing features of your rugged mountain borders in Bajaur. As such the infil routes are virtuallly anywhere, ad hoc, and easily adjusted.

2.) TROOPS-Not that it matters much because there is a absolute absence of control here on either side. Neither the Canadians nor the Brits have been south to your Baluchi border to any extent. Only in April did the Brits, for the first time ever, extend south of Garmsir town. I haven't tracked their recent activities but I'm certain it was McKiernan's intention to develop that battle-space this summer.

We'll see if McChrystal alters any of the planned deployments but I'd doubt it. Somehow, our presence must be extended into Kandahar's and Helmand's south. Without question, here lies the bulk of the opium.

This is a function of an absence of NATO troops and the continuing issues with raising a police and army in Afghanistan. We'll get no more, likely, from our allies and may, over time, see that slide. Over time is key. I don't anticipate any ORBAT changes to ISAF before a year from this August-fifteen months.

How much time does that buy? We're largely satisfied with the progress made by ANA units that are largely non-pashtu. We've had some success with ANP units that aren't pashtu (notably Hazaras. They take their work very seriously from anecdotal stories I've read of their work in Kandahar with the Canadians). I don't know about the Afghan Border Police here at all so can't comment.

The pashtu continue to prove the most difficult to reconcile and integrate as effective fighters. I was surprised but there appears to be real issues of drug use among MANY of these young men and their reliability is, obviously, questionable just for that reason alone.

Illiteracy is a serious issue too in this area. As bad as conditions seem in the east of Afghanistan, it's the south that is an economic and cultural death-zone from the immense variety of pressures extending on the pashtu here.

So can we raise adequately competent and MOTIVATED afghan security forces to begin backfilling projected ISAF losses fifteen months from now? 4,000 of our men in combat units are deploying to train AND, quite likely, fight. We understand that they'll be battlefield mentors and there are a whole bevy of related issues there too...but there's a CHANCE that fifteen months will see considerable improvement.

3.) OBJECTIVE- The south is KEY TERRAIN to the insurgency.

What kind of in-roads can be made by ISAF towards the Baluchi border? We'll see but I expect any serious, sustained efforts to be matched by the Quetta Shura. It is the pashtu heart of Afghanistan from which the shura draws it's recruits-either in Afghanistan or the afghan refugee camps inside Baluchistan. It is the opium heart that sustains, IMHO, the insurgency. For both reasons I'd imagine any serious forays will not go unchallenged.

"Like the Pakistanis, you are at best trying to accomplish that securing of borders, with nothing to indicate that you are doing any better than us."

I disagree. Bajaur is a discrete operation in a border district. It is the only one of which I'm aware that is on-going. Anywhere else? You read Kayani's conversation as related by General Conway. What conclusions did you draw about Pakistani deployments in Baluchistan?

Cynically, I've postulated that these men of the Quetta shura will be LAST to go. Omar has been assiduous in attempting to maintain good relations with your government's security forces. I'm unaware of a single incident involving these men and your troops and I believe it ties to his deep understanding of the good-will afforded by sanctuary.

It also explains his efforts to tie Mehsud, Bahadur, and Nazir into an alliance directed at Afghanistan and NOT Pakistan. He is your ally, in short.

Whether you remain his ally remains to be seen. In any case, if you've limited forces that can be committed (and don't we all face THAT issue) then you've no choice but to proceed with SWAT and Buner followed by Orakzai, Korrum, Khyber, Mohmand, and into the Waziristans.

If that's the pathway, then the south will remain undisturbed from your side for some time.

Should we do the same and leave this area and it's opium for a more suitable time where you've the forces and inclination to match our operations or would you prefer that we continue mission?

Anyway, my thoughts as devoid of sarcasm and cynicism as I can manage (grrrrr...@#$# much gnashing of teeth).

"you are a senior member and an MP..."

Scars to prove both and patiently awaiting def.pk's tardy recognition of the latter.

Oh to be ferenghi at def.pk.:lol:
 
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These Yanks are only full of cheap talk and hot air. They haven't contributed in solving any problems, but only deteriorated the situation in the region. All I hear is one-sided accusations. Afghanistan today is a hell hole ruled by a bunch of illiterate and brutal drug warlord thugs with no regard for the locals. Heck, the situation under the barbaric Taliban wasn't even that worse. Today, Afghanistan is the main supplier of drugs to the world. Opium cultivation and trade is thriving. This is all having worsening consequences for Pakistan too. The Yanks only have a habit of shifting blame. It's time for Pakistan to take matters in its own hand. I'm glad the army is pursuing their own plan in the tribal areas. It's time to cleanse and flush out all the foreign terrorists. No matter how long it takes we will have to get rid of the terrorists. Then, we need to secure our borders and I've already explained the multifaceted approach in many other threads. Once we do this, the security situation in Pakistan will improve manifold. Screw the aids and everything else coming from Yankland. No more services for the Yanks. It's time to shut-down the supply routes. It's time to halt all kinds of services that are being delivered to the Yanks. What the hell did we get in return other than accusations and enmity form these people? It's time to do it right and do it on our own terms and conditions. I call it the no nonsense approach.
 
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