Pakistan military is slowly bleeding America to death in Afghanistan: Former US Army Colonel 26 Aug,

[Jaanbaz]

US supports ISIS.

 

[ramu]

You elected a mass murderer as PM get off your high horse before you fall off

Supreme Court in India is respected more in our country than in yours and a judicial probe and SIT found not a shred of evidence against Modi. Next, the organised plunder, rapes, and unimaginable crimes committed by Pak army is on display in Dhaka. I have some images of the same if you want evidence.

In a country that has seen more dictators than prime ministers and more PMs killed than those who completed full term, if there is anyone on a high horse then it is people like you.

 

[SQ8]

Every country that has an intelligence agency will keep tabs on neighbours. That is not what happened in 1971. India did not have R&AW till Pak attacked in 1965. There is a difference between immigration for better opportunities vs
Migration due to persecution and programs.

Incorrect. Several Bengali Hindus serving the Pakistani military were actively visiting Calcutta in the late 50's and early 60's in cohesion with Indian state & military intelligence structures to provide information on weaknesses and identify key players in the Bengal intelligentsia that would be used to create dissent.

That is NOT to say that the major contributor to Bangladesh wasn't the Brown Sahibs of the West Pakistan North, but that does absolve India of actively trying to smoothen its eastern front much before 65.

Unlike most others here on PDF, you seems to have a good understanding of the historic events.
I have already pointed out that

• Mullah Omar was a Mujahedin
• He fought the Soviets
• He is the Taliban.

However: there was no faction calling themselves Taliban, fighting the Soviets.
The fact that the US may have trained Mullah Omar, did not make the Taliban a viable faction.
Only the massive support from Pakistan allowed them to succeed .

Wrong, this is repetitive myth and fiction on the Taliban being viable due to Pakistan. The Taliban were ALREADY viable around 95, Pakistan just jumped on the bandwagon as it was surmised(incorrectly) by the deep state intelligence that Afghanistan could provide a good fallback in a war against India by allowing the PAF and PA to retreat and continue a fight even if key cities and Industrial areas closer to the Indian border fell. So a combined conventional and guerilla war would be fought against India(the details and assumption of it are unclear).

 

[maximuswarrior]

Pakistan military is slowly bleeding America to death in Afghanistan: Former US Army Colonel

WASHINGTON DC - Pakistan has been playing a double role in Afghanistan while dealing with the Taliban, alleged a veteran United States army colonel, Lawrence Sellin.

Sellin, who has served in Afghanistan, northern Iraq and a humanitarian mission of West Africa, wrote in The Daily Caller that Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) provided arms and ammunition to Taliban fighters in October 2001, just after US bombing of Afghanistan began.

The then Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf held a meeting with ISI director Lt. Gen. Mahmod Ahmed and other top brass of the army, who argued that Pakistan should not help the United States at all in its war against the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

"Pakistan has continued for seventeen years. While accepting billions of dollars in military and economic aid, Pakistan has been slowly bleeding the US to death in Afghanistan through its support of the Taliban, Haqqani Network, said colonel (retd.) Sellin.

America and it's allies have lost around 4,000 soldiers and over 20,000 US and NATO soldiers have been injured in Afghanistan.

Shortly before his death in 2015, Lt. General Hamid Gul, the former head of Pakistan's ISI, a committed Islamist and known as the "godfather of the Taliban", explained Pakistan's strategy in Afghanistan in an Urdu television interview.

"One day, history will say the ISI drove the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan with the help of USA and another sentence will be recorded that says the ISI drove the USA out of Afghanistan with the help of the USA".

How is it possible for a superpower and it's NATO allies combined to shamefully admit that it lost to a militia group armed with AK-47 rifles and Toyota pick-ups? Even if it allegedly got support from outside powers. Is America so helpless that it can't defeat a bunch of battle hardened militia fighters?

The beauty is that the Taliban have owned the Americans for 17 years in a row and we are still counting. In other words, it is not sheer luck. The Taliban have truly wiped the floor and the Americans are admitting it in front of the whole world. Every single day. The American desperation is truly pathetic. How can this be a superpower?

LOL at the laughable notion that the Taliban are winning because Pakistan is providing help. Only a fool would buy this BS argument. Even if the Taliban received help from all neighboring countries combined the Americans should be able to defeat the Taliban in a matter of months. Isn't America invincible? Doesn't it have the best military on the planet? Doesn't America claim to have the best intelligence, weaponry and training? American forces even had the numbers to defeat the Taliban yet they couldn't win a district.

What kind of a superpower would hide behind the false premise that it is losing a war against a limited militia group? What kind of a superpower would spend more than a trillion dollars, fight for almost two decades and still end up on the losing side? All because Pakistan provided help and sanctuary to the Taliban? LMAO

Someone explain the logic here.

 

[SQ8]

How is it possible for a superpower and it's NATO allies to admit that it lost to a militia armed with AK-47 rifles and Toyota pick-ups? Even if it allegedly got support of outside powers. Is America so helpless that it can't defeat battle hardened militia group?

The beauty is that the Taliban have owned the Americans for 17 years and we are still counting. In other words, it is not sheer luck. The Taliban have truly wiped the floor and the Americans are admitting it in front of the whole world.

LOL at Taliban are winning because Pakistan is providing help. Only a fool would buy this BS argument.

It actually is possible since the US is vary of scorched earth due to their media impression. Specifically since its need to build coalitions rests on assuring them that their forces will not be endangering civillians and leading to a loss of support back in their countries.
Vietnam was an experience where public opinion was what defeated the US military leadership and not as such the vietcong alone.

One CANNOT underestimate the power that the military industrial complex in the US has on their economy and therefore politics. Trump is welcome because he is making their coffers full after the democrats drawdown during Obama.

The Taliban can defeat the US because they enjoy havens here(willingly or unwillingly) but more importantly among their local population. Since the US cannot state that the reason they are failing is because the common Afghan villager has no interest in their war and is happy letting anyone who lets him sell his opium and feed his family run the village. They have no idea of the hearts and minds of a feudal nation means where the choice is either sodomites or religious nutjobs since that is what Afghanistan has become since the Russian invasion.
Only educating Kabul will do no good except create people who can sign off for external foriegn policy, something Indians are doing their best on and hence the next twenty rulers of Kabul will hate Pakistan because they are educated by India and then have pre-existing bad blood.

There is further cause of hatred as Hamid gul and his cabal did let loose a rain of hell on Afghans on our way to "koh kaaf" but that is a divergent topic.

However, the Taliban are part of the Afghan population just as the TTP were part of our Tribal areas until they were weeded out. The same way LeJ and other extremist or militant groups are part of South Punjab.

Easier said than done to ask a family to recognize that their son is an extremist or militant and must be killed for the good of a state's need.

 

[maximuswarrior]

It actually is possible since the US is vary of scorched earth due to their media impression. Specifically since its need to build coalitions rests on assuring them that their forces will not be endangering civillians and leading to a loss of support back in their countries.
Vietnam was an experience where public opinion was what defeated the US military leadership and not as such the vietcong alone.

One CANNOT underestimate the power that the military industrial complex in the US has on their economy and therefore politics. Trump is welcome because he is making their coffers full after the democrats drawdown during Obama.

The Taliban can defeat the US because they enjoy havens here(willingly or unwillingly) but more importantly among their local population. Since the US cannot state that the reason they are failing is because the common Afghan villager has no interest in their war and is happy letting anyone who lets him sell his opium and feed his family run the village. They have no idea of the hearts and minds of a feudal nation means where the choice is either sodomites or religious nutjobs since that is what Afghanistan has become since the Russian invasion.
Only educating Kabul will do no good except create people who can sign off for external foriegn policy, something Indians are doing their best on and hence the next twenty rulers of Kabul will hate Pakistan because they are educated by India and then have pre-existing bad blood.

There is further cause of hatred as Hamid gul and his cabal did let loose a rain of hell on Afghans on our way to "koh kaaf" but that is a divergent topic.

However, the Taliban are part of the Afghan population just as the TTP were part of our Tribal areas until they were weeded out. The same way LeJ and other extremist or militant groups are part of South Punjab.

Easier said than done to ask a family to recognize that their son is an extremist or militant and must be killed for the good of a state's need.

In other words the Americans are simplifying the war in Afghanistan and trying to find a scapegoat for their failure in Afghanistan.

Not in a trillion years can anyone convince me that the US/NATO lost the war in Afghanistan because Pakistan provided safehavens to the Taliban. After 17 years the Americans only have themselves to blame.

In reality America is part of the problem. The American machinery is corrupt to the core and has become the main beneficiary of Afghan narcotics exports. The Americans are in Afghanistan to plunder their natural resources and contain China. Of course they cannot and never will be able to contain China, but it is a dream nevertheless.

I agree that a vast portion of the Afghan populace i.e. mainly Pashtun are fighting against US/NATO forces. Yes, they enjoy a lot of sympathy and support among their own people. That is something the US/NATO will never own up to. They are however very swift and eager to blame Pakistan.

American blame game against Pakistan will only get them so far. It won't change the ground reality one tiny bit. America will continue to be stuck in Afghanistan indefinitely. The American objective to contain China and blame Pakistan has come at a very high cost. The Americans are arrogant to admit the truth. The problem for the Americans is that the cost of the Afghan war won't end any time soon. The US should embrace itself for a higher cost. As the US continues to agitate everyone including Pakistan, it is losing all support.

It is not very hard to predict the outcome of the Afghan war. The US will eventually run off like it did after the Cold War. There is no good ending to this blockbuster.

 

[SQ8]

In other words the Americans are simplifying the war in Afghanistan and trying to find a scapegoat for their failure in Afghanistan.

Not in a trillion years can anyone convince me that the US/NATO lost the war in Afghanistan because Pakistan provided safehavens to the Taliban. After 17 years the Americans only have themselves to blame.

In reality America is part of the problem. The American machinery is corrupt to the core and has become the main beneficiary of Afghan narcotics exports. The Americans are in Afghanistan to plunder their natural resources and contain China. Of course they cannot and never will be able to contain China, but it is a dream nevertheless.

I agree that a vast portion of the Afghan populace i.e. mainly Pashtun are fighting against US/NATO forces. Yes, they enjoy a lot of sympathy and support among their own people. That is something the US/NATO will never own up to. They are however very swift and eager to blame Pakistan.

American blame game against Pakistan will only get them so far. It won't change the ground reality one tiny bit. America will continue to be stuck in Afghanistan indefinitely. The American objective to contain China and blame Pakistan has come at a very high cost. The Americans are arrogant to admit the truth. The problem for the Americans is that the cost of the Afghan war won't end any time soon. The US should embrace itself for a higher cost. As the US continues to agitate everyone including Pakistan, it is losing all support.

It is not very hard to predict the outcome of the Afghan war. The US will eventually run off like it did after the Cold War. There is no good ending to this blockbuster.

Even if Pakistan did which has differring opinions on it since the Pakistani intellegence community is sometimes at war against itself due to cabals built up within the organization and is a leftover from being modelled after Mi6 and CIA(although in fairness Cabals form in any organization at times, be it political parties or the board of a major Multinational).
What I can be convinced of is that Afghanistan is the "fecal hole" that Trump refers to due to its disjointed feudal system. In Pakistan even the poorest in many smaller towns now have access to the internet and communicatiions and so now have exposure to the outside world(how they interpret and apply this exposure is a differrent debate). Afghanistan is still in the 17th century except Kabul or two other urban centers. While communications are being pushed as such they are restricted or have no impact as such.

Such a collection of peoples arent really a nation unless governed on by a popular government independant of foriegn occupation OR the foriegn occupation itself is so popular and accepted that it is applauded as the government.

Since neither exists, we cannot consider Afghanistan as a single entity. Pakistan is not the only safe haven in Afghanistan as the Iranians too engage in their reigional games. The US can blame Iran but as such it will not get any traction out of Iran since there is little left to do against Iran other than declaring war on them.
Against Pakistan the US holds some cards but those are running out as the Russian master plan(it is their master plan we are watching unfold really) to essentially kick the US out of Central Asia and the Middle east is moving forward. While kicking the US out is impossible due to the reach and technological and professional superiorirty of the US soldier ; the US military leadership which is now increasingly composed of yes men and paper pushers due to a force wide personality worship disease is starting to take toll.

The US colonel or Brigadier that led troops to war in 2001 was a veteran of Vietnam, Panama ,Gulf war 1, Somalia and Kosovo. The one who leads them today has at maximum seen true leadership in Kosovo and the rest is the politically tainted and mismanaged conflicts of Afghanistan and Iraq.
They are now increasingly burdened by their own hires of neo-evangilist think tanks and their mix of non resident Arab non-muslims and many NRI's too(have to see their linkdins to see who is typing ideas).

Imagine this group as the one now telling an increasingly pampered and mis-inducted US troop(many US officers & soldiers I know who are veterans of early Afghan campaign and Iraq complain of recent recruits being total pansies and incapable of anything other than calling air support) who and how to fight. They have a military burdened with women even those not really in the mood to fight or provide proper support services ( those that joined for the free medical beneifts and not to really serve their country) along with Gays, Lesbians and Transgenders whose focus is increasingly less on focusing on service and more on fighting for their rights.

So essentially a force that has lost its purpose (to protect America) is now being asked to fight national interest battles which leads to less effective forces and force leadership despite all weaponry available.
It is a FOLLY on any Pakistani military enthusiasts part to think all US miliary personell are either evil or incompetent as many are dedicate and well trained warriors well capable of making our men drop their weapons and surrender.
HOWEVER, the issue is that just with our military leadership in the past and currently- there are career yes men and skewed politics that end up hampering affectivness.

Now, into that mix thrown in the uncooperative Afghan population, their "soldiers" who are essentially paramilitary at best and leaving most of thier US trainers(very professional but losing out in the face of sodomite Afghan commanders and local laziness of purpose) frustrated at lack of progress with many units.

What you get is essentially is typical military vs local will of counterinsurgency failure. We were experiencing it until APS too until those children were made posters to change the population around from worshipping bearded goats to actually seeing what they stood for.

As far as Pakistani doublespeak goes, we MUST understand. Pakistan is a state with a population of 230 million and rising. Whatever decisions are neccecary to ensure that Pakistan has secure borders, secure economic and natural resources for the next 50 years should be made. But these need to be the right decisions.

If those "right" decisions include us saying something and doing another, sacrificing a million today to save 200 in the next fifty.. so be it. It may be that such ideals will be judged by history and possibly much better alternatives were available. But if those alternatives were NOT known and the decision made COLLECTIVELY by a POPULAR and COMPETENT national leadership- then so be it.

@Horus I guess it may be time to start writing things again.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Even if Pakistan did which has differring opinions on it since the Pakistani intellegence community is sometimes at war against itself due to cabals built up within the organization and is a leftover from being modelled after Mi6 and CIA(although in fairness Cabals form in any organization at times, be it political parties or the board of a major Multinational).
What I can be convinced of is that Afghanistan is the "fecal hole" that Trump refers to due to its disjointed feudal system. In Pakistan even the poorest in many smaller towns now have access to the internet and communicatiions and so now have exposure to the outside world(how they interpret and apply this exposure is a differrent debate). Afghanistan is still in the 17th century except Kabul or two other urban centers. While communications are being pushed as such they are restricted or have no impact as such.

Such a collection of peoples arent really a nation unless governed on by a popular government independant of foriegn occupation OR the foriegn occupation itself is so popular and accepted that it is applauded as the government.

Since neither exists, we cannot consider Afghanistan as a single entity. Pakistan is not the only safe haven in Afghanistan as the Iranians too engage in their reigional games. The US can blame Iran but as such it will not get any traction out of Iran since there is little left to do against Iran other than declaring war on them.
Against Pakistan the US holds some cards but those are running out as the Russian master plan(it is their master plan we are watching unfold really) to essentially kick the US out of Central Asia and the Middle east is moving forward. While kicking the US out is impossible due to the reach and technological and professional superiorirty of the US soldier ; the US military leadership which is now increasingly composed of yes men and paper pushers due to a force wide personality worship disease is starting to take toll.

The US colonel or Brigadier that led troops to war in 2001 was a veteran of Vietnam, Panama ,Gulf war 1, Somalia and Kosovo. The one who leads them today has at maximum seen true leadership in Kosovo and the rest is the politically tainted and mismanaged conflicts of Afghanistan and Iraq.
They are now increasingly burdened by their own hires of neo-evangilist think tanks and their mix of non resident Arab non-muslims and many NRI's too(have to see their linkdins to see who is typing ideas).

Imagine this group as the one now telling an increasingly pampered and mis-inducted US troop(many US officers & soldiers I know who are veterans of early Afghan campaign and Iraq complain of recent recruits being total pansies and incapable of anything other than calling air support) who and how to fight. They have a military burdened with women even those not really in the mood to fight or provide proper support services ( those that joined for the free medical beneifts and not to really serve their country) along with Gays, Lesbians and Transgenders whose focus is increasingly less on focusing on service and more on fighting for their rights.

So essentially a force that has lost its purpose (to protect America) is now being asked to fight national interest battles which leads to less effective forces and force leadership despite all weaponry available.
It is a FOLLY on any Pakistani military enthusiasts part to think all US miliary personell are either evil or incompetent as many are dedicate and well trained warriors well capable of making our men drop their weapons and surrender.
HOWEVER, the issue is that just with our military leadership in the past and currently- there are career yes men and skewed politics that end up hampering affectivness.

Now, into that mix thrown in the uncooperative Afghan population, their "soldiers" who are essentially paramilitary at best and leaving most of thier US trainers(very professional but losing out in the face of sodomite Afghan commanders and local laziness of purpose) frustrated at lack of progress with many units.

What you get is essentially is typical military vs local will of counterinsurgency failure. We were experiencing it until APS too until those children were made posters to change the population around from worshipping bearded goats to actually seeing what they stood for.

As far as Pakistani doublespeak goes, we MUST understand. Pakistan is a state with a population of 230 million and rising. Whatever decisions are neccecary to ensure that Pakistan has secure borders, secure economic and natural resources for the next 50 years should be made. But these need to be the right decisions.

If those "right" decisions include us saying something and doing another, sacrificing a million today to save 200 in the next fifty.. so be it. It may be that such ideals will be judged by history and possibly much better alternatives were available. But if those alternatives were NOT known and the decision made COLLECTIVELY by a POPULAR and COMPETENT national leadership- then so be it.

@Horus I guess it may be time to start writing things again.

I'd add independent and domestically-tied leadership too. These are important factors as a leader whose fate is tied to KSA, UAE, US, Canada, UK is not going to think in terms of the nation's survival (they have the option of leaving). Moreover, an Ishaq Dar-like guy with ill-gained means sitting in the UK can be influenced into doing things by those who want to exact their interests on us without concessions.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Lets recap

2005 : US itself decided to venture into Afghanistan / Iraq , against UN wishes
2012-2013 : US it self started mess in South Turkey / North Iran , and Eastern Syria
2017 : After Obama left , a full 8 years wasted and US is still burning money in Afghanistan

In all cases it was a move which was approved by it's own policy makers who have gone to retire from Jobs and now collect nice pension pay.

Between 2017-2018 in 1 Glorious year Trump has managed to ruin

• USA-Canada Ties
• USA-Turkey Ties
• USA- Pakistan Ties
• USA- Iran Ties (Any recently improvements, all lost)
• USA -China Ties , pretty much destroyed
• USA -Russia Ties , pretty much destroyed

That is why real estate agents , buy/sell apartments or homes , they don't do international diplomacy

 

[ramu]

Incorrect. Several Bengali Hindus serving the Pakistani military were actively visiting Calcutta in the late 50's and early 60's in cohesion with Indian state & military intelligence structures to provide information on weaknesses and identify key players in the Bengal intelligentsia that would be used to create dissent.

That is NOT to say that the major contributor to Bangladesh wasn't the Brown Sahibs of the West Pakistan North, but that does absolve India of actively trying to smoothen its eastern front much before.

Give one neutral source that is half credible to make sure it's not your imagination.

 

[SQ8]

Give one neutral source that is half credible to make sure it's not your imagination.

You do the same and try doing it without being a smart *** about it.

 

[ramu]

You do the same and try doing it without being a smart *** about it.

Dont chicken out. I made no claims. I just gave you the year R&AW was setup post 1965. You talked about how India did a, b & c even before R&AW was setup. Give me a link to prove your claims or STFU.

 

[Signalian]

when there is a certain important decision-making coming up on an issue, e.g. on relations between Pakistan and USA, then the material for the case starts to build up.
Such material includes: statements from officials of different departments of USA, blocking of promised aid or contractual deals, use of diplomatic methods to pressurize Pakistan into submission etc.

 

[my2cents]

Pakistan military is slowly bleeding America to death in Afghanistan: Former US Army Colonel

WASHINGTON DC - Pakistan has been playing a double role in Afghanistan while dealing with the Taliban, alleged a veteran United States army colonel, Lawrence Sellin.

Sellin, who has served in Afghanistan, northern Iraq and a humanitarian mission of West Africa, wrote in The Daily Caller that Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) provided arms and ammunition to Taliban fighters in October 2001, just after US bombing of Afghanistan began.

The then Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf held a meeting with ISI director Lt. Gen. Mahmod Ahmed and other top brass of the army, who argued that Pakistan should not help the United States at all in its war against the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

"Pakistan has continued for seventeen years. While accepting billions of dollars in military and economic aid, Pakistan has been slowly bleeding the US to death in Afghanistan through its support of the Taliban, Haqqani Network, said colonel (retd.) Sellin.

America and it's allies have lost around 4,000 soldiers and over 20,000 US and NATO soldiers have been injured in Afghanistan.

Shortly before his death in 2015, Lt. General Hamid Gul, the former head of Pakistan's ISI, a committed Islamist and known as the "godfather of the Taliban", explained Pakistan's strategy in Afghanistan in an Urdu television interview.

"One day, history will say the ISI drove the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan with the help of USA and another sentence will be recorded that says the ISI drove the USA out of Afghanistan with the help of the USA".

So, war on terror was a drama to fool us people??
And, 40K casualties for past one decade was just a collateral damage?

 

[pzfz]

when there is a certain important decision-making coming up on an issue, e.g. on relations between Pakistan and USA, then the material for the case starts to build up.
Such material includes: statements from officials of different departments of USA, blocking of promised aid or contractual deals, use of diplomatic methods to pressurize Pakistan into submission etc.

Pak can , at the very least, do the highlighted part. The geniuses in the PM/FO/ISPR still haven't figured this out.