Pakistan Looks For U.S. (Nuclear) Deal

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just checked. Nearly everyone is reporting that the Khushab-3 is not yet operational. Here is a link from the Telegraph for your benefit.

Pakistan's nuclear arms push angers America - Telegraph

This article clearly says that the cooling towers have just been completed & the reactor can begin operations within months. By this logic, Pakistan has been spending money on the reactor all the while the floods raged & devastated Pakistan. Hence your point about the rector being complete is devoid of any merit.

That the reactor will be operational in months indicates that the majority of the work has been completed. In addition, the little remaining work that was occurring during the floods had funding allocated, disbursed and contracts awarded long before the floods hit. Therefore the argument that significant funds were diverted to the Khushab complex instead of flood relief remains a dishonest and invalid one.

Wrong. The F-16 deal signed in March and to which i provided the link earlier is itself a major deal. Near squadron strength of F-16 and related equipment does not come cheap.

Your link does not provide any details on whether or not this is a deal for brand new F-16's, or used F-16's for a minimal (or free) price that will undergo MLU later. Nor does it mention how the F-16's are being paid for - the majority of cost might be covered under US military aid.

And again, new or not, the contract was signed in March, long before the floods, so how does criticizing the GoP for spending money on this purchase, in the context of flood relief, when there were no floods make any sense?

For the sake of argument lets say that these a/c were agreed upon during Musharraf's time. But the deal was signed only in March, just two months before the floods!! Why not follow the earlier example and scrap the deal & spend the money on flood relief. It was done during the earthquake, the floods in comparison have been a much bigger disaster!? Look at this from this point of view & you might realize that there is immense merit in the argument that these reporters are putting forward.

Again, unless you can provide the exact details of the contract and how it is being funded and whether the funds have already been paid out or not, criticizing the GoP for not diverting some alleged funds to flood relief is just speculation and invalid criticizm. Show me exactly how much money the PAF was going to spend on this contract from its own pockets and what the status of those funds is currently.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

US policies are neither discriminatory nor hypocritical, when one keeps in mind that they are driven by putting the national interests above plebeian concepts of justice and morality.

How does 'keeping national interests above all else' not make a policy discriminatory and/or hypocritical?

The best you could argue is that the justifications for the US pursuing double standards and discriminatory and hypocritical policies were based on 'keeping national interests above all else, but the policies themselves still exhibit double standards and discrimination.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Oh they DO help ----- the USA!

They do, while at the same time discriminating and applying double standards and doing harm.

The question that most Pakistanis ask is whether US 'help' (aid) outweighs the harm US policies have done in Pakistan (war in Afghanistan, war against a noun, sanctions, arbitrary and discriminatory exemptions for some nations).

I'd say most Pakistanis have answered the above question as, 'US harm far outweighs US help - please take your aid and leave us alone'.

 

[Bhim]

I think no one is forcing Pakistan to take aid from USA?

Isn't every one from GOP making a beeline to US every now and then for more aid?

I believe once Pakistan tells US that we don't want any help from you, then it can dictate its terms. Tilll then there will always be a talk of accountability, transparency and who should get it who should not, and for what purpose the aid is to be used. So I think no one has the right to complain.

 

[Renegade]

That the reactor will be operational in months indicates that the majority of the work has been completed. In addition, the little remaining work that was occurring during the floods had funding allocated, disbursed and contracts awarded long before the floods hit. Therefore the argument that significant funds were diverted to the Khushab complex instead of flood relief remains a dishonest and invalid one.

The satellite imagery obtained in September show Pakistan racing to complete the reactor. This simply means that construction has been on & money spent during the floods, while Pakistan was appealing for international aid.

Look at the irony of it all. Pakistan has scant resources and you chaps prefer to spend it on fancy stuff even during the most serious national calamities. Could not the construction have been frozen for some time & money diverted to help the people? Even a puny amount of 10,000 rs has a lot of life saving potential during these times.

Your link does not provide any details on whether or not this is a deal for brand new F-16's, or used F-16's for a minimal (or free) price that will undergo MLU later. Nor does it mention how the F-16's are being paid for - the majority of cost might be covered under US military aid.

It is very likely that money was from American aid, but the GoP could have used it for humanitarian purposes. I am sure the Americans would not have objected to it. But why didn't the GoP do it?? Did they even explore this option?

And again, new or not, the contract was signed in March, long before the floods, so how does criticizing the GoP for spending money on this purchase, in the context of flood relief, when there were no floods make any sense?

Again, unless you can provide the exact details of the contract and how it is being funded and whether the funds have already been paid out or not, criticizing the GoP for not diverting some alleged funds to flood relief is just speculation and invalid criticizm. Show me exactly how much money the PAF was going to spend on this contract from its own pockets and what the status of those funds is currently.

All details of such contracts are not available in the public domain, you know it as well as i do. Hardly anyone publishes such contracts. The F-16 contract has been cut earlier, this itself is strong ground to believe that it can be done again. Even if the contract was signed 2 months earlier. Why not shelve it? Even a partial reduction would have freed an immense amount of money for relief.

The impression that goes around that the Pakistan Military went weapons shopping while the average man was fighting for his survival. This is precisely the impression that the reporters have & are conveying thought their articles. and they are right. For anyone who does not understand the sacrosanct nature that Pakistan applies to its defense needs (both real & imaginary), would be aghast & appalled by such state of affairs.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The satellite imagery obtained in September show Pakistan racing to complete the reactor. This simply means that construction has been on & money spent during the floods, while Pakistan was appealing for international aid.

How on earth can a satellite image taken in September show that Pakistan is 'racing to complete the reactor'? The satellite shows a snapshot in time, you cannot gauge the rate of progress from it. The only way you would be able to tell whether Pakistan accelerated the work on the reactor AFTER the floods is if you could compare images from right before the floods with the images in September. In fact, the argument made in the article about 'racing to complete' is based on the fact that the third Khushab reactor is being complete at a faster pace than the second Khushab. The comparison is from images from last year and this year. The majority of the infrastructure was already in place for Khushab III last year, as the images show. The cooling tower foundations had been laid, and the towers have since been completed. This does not support your contention of 'racing to complete the reactor' right after the floods.

Look at the irony of it all. Pakistan has scant resources and you chaps prefer to spend it on fancy stuff even during the most serious national calamities. Could not the construction have been frozen for some time & money diverted to help the people? Even a puny amount of 10,000 rs has a lot of life saving potential during these times.

Again, just because the image was taken in September does not mean that work on the towers started right after the floods (see the argument above). The work on the towers started last year, and was probably completed or largely completed before the floods. When the project is 99% complete, why should one halt it and incur more costs over possible contract violations and delays?

It is very likely that money was from American aid, but the GoP could have used it for humanitarian purposes. I am sure the Americans would not have objected to it. But why didn't the GoP do it?? Did they even explore this option?

Again, unless you can provide the specifics of what money was applied where, this is invalid speculation on your part.

All details of such contracts are not available in the public domain, you know it as well as i do. Hardly anyone publishes such contracts. The F-16 contract has been cut earlier, this itself is strong ground to believe that it can be done again. Even if the contract was signed 2 months earlier. Why not shelve it? Even a partial reduction would have freed an immense amount of money for relief.

We have all the details of the initial contract for the 18 Block 52's, and where the money came from for the new fighters and the MLU's. We even know that in 2008 the GoP asked the US to apply some its military aid towards the MLU process. So there should be not trouble in finding out the financial details around this contract. And until you do so, there is no point in criticizing Pakistan over something you don't even have the details for.

The impression that goes around that the Pakistan Military went weapons shopping while the average man was fighting for his survival. This is precisely the impression that the reporters have & are conveying thought their articles. and they are right. For anyone who does not understand the sacrosanct nature that Pakistan applies to its defense needs (both real & imaginary), would be aghast & appalled by such state of affairs.

The impression projected by both authors is dishonest and invalid, given that the contracts for the F-16's were signed years ago, and most of the work on the Khushab complex was also completed before the floods.

Your defence of this malicious and dishonest propaganda in the Western media to malign Pakistan continues to remain weak and unsubstantiated.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think no one is forcing Pakistan to take aid from USA?

Isn't every one from GOP making a beeline to US every now and then for more aid?

I believe once Pakistan tells US that we don't want any help from you, then it can dictate its terms. Tilll then there will always be a talk of accountability, transparency and who should get it who should not, and for what purpose the aid is to be used. So I think no one has the right to complain.

The people want the GoP to refuse aid, the incompetent GoP however sees it as necessary for its own survival (and likely its own pockets). There is a reason this government is extremely unpopular amongst Pakistanis.

 

[indushek]

How does 'keeping national interests above all else' not make a policy discriminatory and/or hypocritical?

The best you could argue is that the justifications for the US pursuing double standards and discriminatory and hypocritical policies were based on 'keeping national interests above all else, but the policies themselves still exhibit double standards and discrimination.

Well it seems that you are critcizing US for double standards but each and every country does that , even India and Pakistan. I will leave out kashmir as i don't want to go offtopic and bring in swarms of trolls here.

Let us consider the Taliban, i am not going to even talk about the western propaganda of Pakistan playing both sides in WOT. Just before WOT started , i mean particularly when Russia left u were the only ones with ties to Taliban , even though it was a brutal regime u courted them. See what has happened to your country and the world. I know that USA was the one who funded it but your country could have kept them within Afghanistan but the borders were porous and u were not much stopping them. This was because u had an use for them.

The same way India broke Pakistan in to two in 1971. At that time both our countries were in the Third world league (well we still are), if we can do those things what should the world's super power be doing ?? Its doing what it has to all right.

When it comes to policy making there is no good for all or discriminatory there is only what is good for me (i mean country here at a national level). It is just that Pakistan is finding itself at the wrong end right now. However with the Chinese you are on the right end right??

 

[SMC]

Renegade, did US stop all its defence spending or cut it significantly when Hurricane Katrina hit? The damage is reported at $200B. The fact that the response was inadequate means a lot more could have been done.

The problem with your argument - or to be more specific, the argument of the journalist - is that it is extremely simplistic and has been discussed many times before. Defence spending that is being done is bare minimum and we're only buying 18 F-16s (maybe 32, but that's still not much). The original number was 77, so it's been cut down quite significantly. Show me a major catastrophe where defence spending was cut down altogether. We've cut it down to an extreme amount - as much as we could. You think India will end the MMRCA deal, or any other major defence deals, if it gets hit by flooding?

 

[Omar1984]

The United States today sees india as their close friend in South Asia, not Pakistan anymore due to the U.S. and india's shared view against China and shared view against Taliban. The U.S. wants to use india against China like the U.S. used Pakistan against the Soviet Union.


Those days of Pakistan and United States being close friendly allies are long gone.

The American public dont have a favorable view of Muslim countries. There is a growing anti-muslim sentiment in the U.S. and its only going to get worst.


Pakistan can always count on China:

Electricity: China comes to Pakistan’s aid again


Among the hopelessness of prolonged electricity shortages that have hit the economy badly, China comes to Pakistan’s aid again. But where are Pakistan’s western ‘friends’ and ‘friendly investors’?

Beijing will provide Pakistan two much needed nuclear power plants, adding to the existing Chinese-built nuclear power capacity.

The plants will help Pakistan cover part of the huge energy deficit. As the demand is spiralling, Islamabad plans to produce at least an additional 8,000 megawatts by 2025. Pakistan is seeking foreign direct investment in power from all countries and sources, as its economy, particularly the textile-related and value-added units suffer a great deal.

The installed nuclear power capacity in fy-2010 is 562 mw, and the generation is 2,521 gigawatt (GW) hours, according to Hydrocarbon Development Instit-ution (HDIP), Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Resources. The overall hydroelectric installed capacity is 6,481 megawatts (MW), and the generation is 23,535 GW hours. The installed capacity of thermal electricity is 12,707 MW and generation is 39,342 GW hours, according to HDIP.

The consumption in fiscal year 2010 is 37.3 million tonnes of oil equivalent, which is met by a mix of natural gas, oil, electricity, coal and liquefied petroleum.

China, this week, held out its “firmest government confirmation yet” of its pans to build two nuclear power reactors for Pakistan. The Chinese Foreign Office Jiang Yu said, “ China plans to help Pakistan expands its Chashama nuclear energy complex in Punjab by building two reactors in addition to the one already operating, and another under completion.”

At the same time, China National Nuclear Corporation says it is, separately, engaged in negotiations to build a 1-Gigawatt nuclear reactor for Pakistan. It will be supplied by state-owned China National Nuclear Corporation (CNNC). Qiu Jiangang, Vice President CNNC reportedly said, “both sides are in discussion over our company exporting a 1-gigawatt nuclear pant to Pakistan.”

China and Pakistan are happy with the fact that Beijing may see no need to get approval for the two new reactors from the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) of 46 countries, which is an international council of governments. The group aims to ensure that nuclear exports are not diverted to non-peaceful purposes.

“China has already notified the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) about the relevant details and invited IAEA to exercise safeguards and oversight of this project,” according to the spokesperson. The reactors are being provided under a 2003 agreement. But, both Islamabad and Beijing have, in the past, described such reservations as “unfounded” and “unnecessary” in view of the fact that Pakistan, itself a nuclear power since May 1998, has an excellent performance record in the nuclear field.

The new Chinese reactors will be of 300 MW each. Chinese companies have already been selected to build the plants and they have signed with the Pakistanis.

Pakistani Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokesman Abdul Basit, says “We have an ongoing civilian nuclear cooperation agreement with China which is, according to our respective international obligations for peaceful purposes under he IAEA safeguards.”

The two new reactors don’t require NSG approval, as “they are coming under a memorandum of understanding signed prior to China joining the NSG,” he said.

Completion of these and other nuclear reactors apart, the demand is so huge that all sorts of energy generation equipment will have to be installed for years — starting immediately. Here is the potential for foreign investment and companies making all types of equipment, ranging from thermal to hydel, and nuclear to natural gas.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...tricity-china-comes-pakistan-s-aid-again.html

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[Ras]

The Obama govt does not have the political courage for a major policy shift the way the Bush govt did when they swung the Nuke deal India's way.The Bush admin started work on the deal in 2004 when they were running high in the polls. Obama is sinking and the dems will get a crushing defeat in November. He is already a lame duck president.

No one should expect anything from his administration in the near future.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The Obama govt does not have the political courage for a major policy shift the way the Bush govt did when they swung the Nuke deal India's way.The Bush admin started work on the deal in 2004 when they were running high in the polls. Obama is sinking and the dems will get a crushing defeat in November. He is already a lame duck president.

No one should expect anything from his administration in the near future.

Tell me Ras, who is "most likely" to replace Obama in the next presidential elections?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Beijing will provide Pakistan two much needed nuclear power plants, adding to the existing Chinese-built nuclear power capacity.

The plants will help Pakistan cover part of the huge energy deficit. As the demand is spiralling, Islamabad plans to produce at least an additional 8,000 megawatts by 2025. Pakistan is seeking foreign direct investment in power from all countries and sources, as its economy, particularly the textile-related and value-added units suffer a great deal.

I would like to see more such deals happening in the future.

Having a stable supply of domestic energy is one of the most important things for any government to achieve.

I think more investment in hydroelectric "dams" is essential as well, not only for the purposes of power generation, but also as a buffer against future natural disasters. Hydroelectric power is also quite cost-effective over the long run, the Three Gorges Dam for example, is projected to pay for itself completely after 10 years of operation. The longer you operate the dam, the more cost-effective it becomes.

 

[Ras]

Tell me Ras, who is "most likely" to replace Obama in the next presidential elections?

Depends on who runs on the Republican side...if the GOP nominates morons like Palin or Huckabee then Obama will win again. Someone like Romney on the other hand could win.

Anyway without control of Congress Obama cannot do anything and he will most likely lose that next month.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Depends on who runs on the Republican side...if the GOP nominates morons like Palin or Huckabee then Obama will win again. Someone like Romney on the other hand could win.

Anyway without control of Congress Obama cannot do anything and he will most likely lose that next month.

OK so Obama will lose congress, but will he lose the presidency?

Obama may be unpopular, but from what I have read there isn't really a strong Republican front-runner that can feasibly challenge him. So is it actually likely that he will lose the presidency?