‘Pakistan is for Islam’

[SamantK]

Yes...I am asking you to elaborate...Because I do not understand what you are trying to aim at here!

Its no small topic, the gensis of all the extremism in Pakistan started with Zia, or should we say started by Zia. First the mujhaeedin, then the LeT, it set a chain reaction which has resulted in TTP

True...Same goes on India's part..The govt there supports hatred just like Pakistani govt supports it...Because a united Pakistan and India would only push people who fill their pockets out of the picture...

No, the govt of India does not push hatred towards Pakistan, it is the media, specifically some channels which have been like that. However, the Hate in Pakistan is institutionalized, your text books are a proof how bad the situation is and any guess when all this started?

If you read my above comment it was the Pakistani leadership which initiated the insurgency which even after two decades is still continuing.. Zia thought that they could split India just like Soviet using the mujaheddin, little knowing that those dogs would come back and bite their masters.

I am not too sure about his principals...All I know is that Pakistan was Internationally well recognized during his time and we did not have suicide bombing like today...NOR did the middle class suffer as they suffer now...Back then we had poor no doubt but even the lower middle class could afford a descent livelihood..Now only the rich can breathe...while the middle class struggle way beyond necessary for the daily needs!

Exactly, as i have said he was well respected by the American administration, the situation of Pakistan is also a result of US' short sighted policy back then. Putting it in one line, being the super power, US increased their relations with Zia as a dictator for only one reason, USSR. Now they talk about supporting democracy..

What do you know about Pakistan now...You only know what the media wants you to know!

I think I know a tab bit more after coming here..

Tell that to your country men who were bashing some Pakistanis on the forum for using the word Hindu to call the general Indian public...

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/member...g-india-pakistan-border-10.html#ixzz23kbPgTHA

Ma'am, I think you have missed the whole train , in my previous comment the operating words were

however in the historical sense it is not related to religion..

Not anymore.

 

[Dubious]

Its no small topic, the gensis of all the extremism in Pakistan started with Zia, or should we say started by Zia. First the mujhaeedin, then the LeT, it set a chain reaction which has resulted in TTP

No, it is not a small topic so please don't leave tid bits of trails! Either open a topic and discuss on it OR don't touch it and leave comments left and right....

the govt of India does not push hatred towards Pakistan, it is the media, specifically some channels which have been like that. However, the Hate in Pakistan is institutionalized, your text books are a proof how bad the situation is and any guess when all this started?

VERY OVER RATTED..You really give yourselves too much emphasise..No, I have yet to read a curriculum which EMPHASIZES hatred towards the HINDUSTANI...

I personally have no idea when the "first mujhaeedin" first started...I am not even sure what you people call a MUJAHEED?! Because based on how you talk I am guessing we called the "FIRST MUJAHEED" freedom fighter like British India called Bhagat Singh a terrorist...same person just different minded people calling them different names!

If you read my above comment it was the Pakistani leadership which initiated the insurgency which even after two decades is still continuing.. Zia thought that they could split India just like Soviet using the mujaheddin, little knowing that those dogs would come back and bite their masters.

Again your assumptions...Is this what I can call Indian Insecurity...Because I seriously see this all over PDF...People pointing fingers and begging to bite a piece they won't be able to chew...

Exactly, as i have said he was well respected by the American administration, the situation of Pakistan is also a result of US' short sighted policy back then. Putting it in one line, being the super power, US increased their relations with Zia as a dictator for only one reason, USSR. Now they talk about supporting democracy..

No, Pakistan was not American puppet back then...Now, SOME politicians are but not all and not everyone shares your ideas....Mind you Pakistan is not what America deems it to be...It is not an American made nation...I am not sure why your mindset is stuck in American crap....When I said Pakistan was recognized internationally I meant other countries OTHER THAN AMERICA...Apparently your internationally recognition is limited to America...So, if America recognizes and world doesn't it is international and if America doesn't then it doesn't reach international standards?

REALLY! Broaden your thinking please!

I think I know a tab bit more after coming here..

Which village did you go to?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Its no small topic, the gensis of all the extremism in Pakistan started with Zia, or should we say started by Zia. First the mujhaeedin, then the LeT, it set a chain reaction which has resulted in TTP



No, the govt of India does not push hatred towards Pakistan,.

Pakistanis and Indians have to repeat this bickering every August 14/15 and then every quarter in between the anniversary.

Such is the fate of those who do not want to understand the other and just want to push their own side no matter what.

Or perhaps Pakistan and India are the two big Rajas of yesteryears who will fight and kill each other, they both will ask outsiders to come "help",

Then guess what, the Rajas become so weak that the foreign "helpers" take over.

The scene today is no different than it was 300 years ago.

European powers had established "companies" to "outsource" spice production. Marathas, Nawabs, Mughals, and Rajas all would beg and plead for "new weapons". Europeans made money both ways. First they got spices cheap, and then they sold back expensive weapons.

The same situation is prevalent again.

Westerners have opened up big "shops" or companies and they buy our services / raw material on the cheap.

Then they make more money by selling planes, bombs, ships and helicopters.

We get these shiny weapons and show them off to the rajas on the other side of the border, prancing around, shouting slogans, and blaming the other side for all the mess,


Pakistan did wrong to encourage insurgency in Kashmir.

They should have negotiated with the "Raja" on the other side.

Indians did doubly wrong when at the drop of hat, they used their military might in Kashmir, and in East Bengal.

They should instead have negotiated with the "Raja" on the other side.


But no! Rajas do not negotiate. Bigger Raja uses his military might, and the smaller raja uses insurgency (as it is foolish to use military against the Raja who is 10 times bigger).

And then we have supporters of these Rajas who usually do not live in the Raja land, and instead live in the West, and thus immune to the death and destruction, but

sadly they supporters of these Rajas come on the forums and yell and squeal and curse the supporters of the other raja.

And in the process both Rajas and their masses remain poor and destitute lagging far behind developed countries.


But then we are all "mental" slaves of our own rajas.

So we'll never use our brains to talk about reducing tensions, giving up some in order to gain much bigger peace dividends.

No! We never will accept our own faults.

Yes! we will keep on accusing the other side.

In conclusion:

Us the Pakistanis have most to loose at this time. Just because of our smaller size and resulting weakness. Thus it is a must for us to use our brains and not indulge in petty bickering and one-upmanship with the blind followers of the opposing raja.


peace.

 

[SamantK]

No, it is not a small topic so please don't leave tid bits of trails! Either open a topic and discuss on it OR don't touch it and leave comments left and right....

How am I supposed to know you are so ignorant on this topic? I do not have the patience to type each and everything here, you can search around and find out, not very difficult. Or open a thread specifically to discuss Zia.


[

B]VERY OVER RATTED[/B]..You really give yourselves too much emphasise..No, I have yet to read a curriculum which EMPHASIZES hatred towards the HINDUSTANI...

There is a wiki on that, seriously were you born in Pakistan?
Pakistani textbooks controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I personally have no idea when the "first mujhaeedin" first started...I am not even sure what you people call a MUJAHEED?! Because based on how you talk I am guessing we called the "FIRST MUJAHEED" freedom fighter like British India called Bhagat Singh a terrorist...same person just different minded people calling them different names!

Hold your horses, the context is clear in terms of USSR.. the mujaheddin who fought USSR in Afghanistan.. The comparison is quite tasteless.

Again your assumptions...Is this what I can call Indian Insecurity...Because I seriously see this all over PDF...People pointing fingers and begging to bite a piece they won't be able to chew...

Seriously, is this ignorance or blatant refusal to accept facts? Why Musharraf agreed if it was my very mundane assumption?

BBC News - Musharraf admits Kashmir militants trained in Pakistan

Original Interview

http://www.spiegel.de/international...tan-is-always-seen-as-the-rogue-a-721110.html

No, Pakistan was not American puppet back then...Now, SOME politicians are but not all and not everyone shares your ideas....Mind you Pakistan is not what America deems it to be...It is not an American made nation...I am not sure why your mindset is stuck in American crap....When I said Pakistan was recognized internationally I meant other countries OTHER THAN AMERICA...Apparently your internationally recognition is limited to America...So, if America recognizes and world doesn't it is international and if America doesn't then it doesn't reach international standards?

Do not read more than what is written, I never said Puppet.. If you know the history, US wanted to get into the bed with Pakistan to contain USSR (They did not care if a dictator ruled or a democracy prevailed, they wanted just to meet their goals, rest was of no consequence)

Do you have a scale of respectfulness? I never went to that imagined scale, who really cares about the others when I'm on Zia and his US connection(I'm being on topic for god's sake)?

REALLY! Broaden your thinking please!

You need to stop getting offended!

Which village did you go to?

Some village of no consequence to this discussion!

 

[SamantK]

Pakistanis and Indians have to repeat this bickering every August 14/15 and then every quarter in between the anniversary.

Such is the fate of those who do not want to understand the other and just want to push their own side no matter what.

Or perhaps Pakistan and India are the two big Rajas of yesteryears who will fight and kill each other, they both will ask outsiders to come "help",

Then guess what, the Rajas become so weak that the foreign "helpers" take over.

The scene today is no different than it was 300 years ago.

European powers had established "companies" to "outsource" spice production. Marathas, Nawabs, Mughals, and Rajas all would beg and plead for "new weapons". Europeans made money both ways. First they got spices cheap, and then they sold back expensive weapons.

The same situation is prevalent again.

Westerners have opened up big "shops" or companies and they buy our services / raw material on the cheap.

Then they make more money by selling planes, bombs, ships and helicopters.

We get these shiny weapons and show them off to the rajas on the other side of the border, prancing around, shouting slogans, and blaming the other side for all the mess,


Pakistan did wrong to encourage insurgency in Kashmir.

They should have negotiated with the "Raja" on the other side.

Indians did doubly wrong when at the drop of hat, they used their military might in Kashmir, and in East Bengal.

They should instead have negotiated with the "Raja" on the other side.


But no! Rajas do not negotiate. Bigger Raja uses his military might, and the smaller raja uses insurgency (as it is foolish to use military against the Raja who is 10 times bigger).

And then we have supporters of these Rajas who usually do not live in the Raja land, and instead live in the West, and thus immune to the death and destruction, but

sadly they supporters of these Rajas come on the forums and yell and squeal and curse the supporters of the other raja.

And in the process both Rajas and their masses remain poor and destitute lagging far behind developed countries.


But then we are all "mental" slaves of our own rajas.

So we'll never use our brains to talk about reducing tensions, giving up some in order to gain much bigger peace dividends.

No! We never will accept our own faults.

Yes! we will keep on accusing the other side.

In conclusion:

Us the Pakistanis have most to loose at this time. Just because of our smaller size and resulting weakness. Thus it is a must for us to use our brains and not indulge in petty bickering and one-upmanship with the blind followers of the opposing raja.


peace.

I agree that we need to have a tempered discussion and listen more, to not take the extreme path.

I will also agree that Govt of India is no innocent in making incorrect decisions but India has had a democracy which has helped India avoid some potholes.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

I think it is already be too late to put those fitnah worms back in the can. Here is what may well be coming our way in Pakistan soon:

CONSTITUTION (TWENTIETH AMENDMENT) ACT, 2013

An Act to amend the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan [Gazette of Pakistan, Extraordinary, Part I, 17th August, 2013]

The following Act of Parliament received the assent of the President on 17th August,2013, and is hereby published for general information:-

Whereas it is expedient further to amend the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for the purposes hereinafter appearing ;

It is hereby enacted as follows:-

1- Short title and commencement.

(1) This Act may be called the CONSTITUTION (TWENTIETH AMENDMENT) ACT, 2012
(2) It shall come into force at once.

2- Amendment of Article 106 of the Constitution.

In the Constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as the Constitution in Article 106, in clause (3) after the words "communities" the words and brackets "and persons of Jafari, Zaidi, Alevi or related Madhabs or the Ahle Tashi (who call themselves 'Shias')" shall be inserted.

3- Amendment of Article 260 of the Constitution.
In the Constitution, in Article 260, after clause (2) the following new clause shall be added, namely--

(3) A person who does not believe in the rightful succession of Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Usman, the First Three of the Four Rashidun Khalifas; or claims that Hazrat Ali possessed divine qualities or performed miracles, in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever; or claims that Hazrat Hussein, Hazrat Hasan and their descendents were infallible with divinely-guided knowledge of the unseen and the future, is not a Muslim for the purposes of the Constitution or law."

Source: The Constitution of Pakistan

The Twentieth Amendment

UPDATE: Here is the current version of the Passport Application form:

http://www.embassyofpakistanusa.org/forms/A form fillable.pdf

It is likely that in 2013, the Passport Office will be issuing new passport applicant forms with the following modifications:

 

[FaujHistorian]

^^^^^

The above quoted amendments are in clear violation of the sacred text called "Qarardaad-e-Pakistan" or Pakistan resolution which clearly stated


No constitutional plan would be workable or acceptable to the Muslims [now Pakistanis] unless geographical contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary. That the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in majority as in the North-Western and Eastern zones of India should be grouped to constitute independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign

AND

That adequate, effective and mandatory safeguards shall be specifically provided in the constitution for [Pakistani] minorities in the units and in the regions for the protection of their religious, cultural, economic, political, administrative and other rights of the minorities,


peace.

 

[yyetttt]

A recent survey in Pakistan by PEW research say that 41% of Pakistanis don't consider Shias as Muslims

Well we Shias are living great in Pakistan, same cannot be said about Indian Muslims, and Shias have top spots in our govts, again cant be said about Indian Muslims

 

[Riyadh Haque]

^^^^^

The above quoted amendments are in clear violation of the sacred text called "Qarardaad-e-Pakistan" or Pakistan resolution which clearly stated


No constitutional plan would be workable or acceptable to the Muslims [now Pakistanis] unless geographical contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary. That the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in majority as in the North-Western and Eastern zones of India should be grouped to constitute independent states in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign

AND

That adequate, effective and mandatory safeguards shall be specifically provided in the constitution for [Pakistani] minorities in the units and in the regions for the protection of their religious, cultural, economic, political, administrative and other rights of the minorities,


peace.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...ational-narrative-pakistan-2.html#post3327976

 

[Riyadh Haque]

Well we Shias are living great in Pakistan, same cannot be said about Indian Muslims, and Shias have top spots in our govts, again cant be said about Indian Muslims

I am sure there is some truth in what you say that Shia Pakistanis are doing just as well as other Muslim Pakistanis at the high levels of our Society.

However, there are indications that the situation might be somewhat different at the middle and bottom sections of our Society in Pakistan. For example, the views below indicate the deteriorating relations at the common-people level:

In my personal experience being a shia i remember in my early days in 90's we use to have niaz at our house and many people from our neighbourhood use to come .. i remember it from years and it was a routine , there were no invitations people knew the dates they use to pop in on the perticular day it self. Than suddenly people stopped coming , there were wall chalkings in the neighbourhood calling food cooked some real bad names calling niaz haram etc etc ... I gues it was zia sunni islamization which took effect. Even our freinds avoid eating at our homes i dont know what is it they are fed but definatly the mosque mulla has a role here

radicalization is going to destroy us all. the sectarian divide has grown and continues to grow. i would say that 20 years ago many sunnis were okay with shias. but now its to the point where they wont even eat at their house. when we first moved to canada we stayed with a shia family. and now my dad refuses to even see their faces...

 

[PlaySteady]

I think there is a difference between an " Islamic State" and a " Muslim State". I would like to see Pakistan be a Muslim state, which it already is, but I am afraid, If you try to make it into an "Islamic State" the consequences would be disastrous, Muslims will suffer and there would be fitnah spread across the state. I wouldn't want myself or my children to live in such a state. Those are just my thoughts for now, not saying they are right or wrong, but those are just my thoughts.

PS: I am Not referring this "Islamic State" to the Khulfa e Rashideen....

 

[Riyadh Haque]

I think there is a difference between an " Islamic State" and a " Muslim State". I would like to see Pakistan be a Muslim state, which it already is, but I am afraid, If you try to make it into an "Islamic State" the consequences would be disastrous, Muslims will suffer and there would be fitnah spread across the state. I wouldn't want myself or my children to live in such a state. Those are just my thoughts for now, not saying they are right or wrong, but those are just my thoughts.

PS: I am Not referring this "Islamic State" to the Khulfa e Rashideen....

I am not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate a little more on your idea?

What specifically is the difference between an "Islamic State" and a "Muslim State" in your opinion?

Perhaps it would be helpful if you were to take a look at this old thread on this issue of "Islamic State", "Muslim State", fitnah and so on:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...-pakistan-has-2-choices-secularism-death.html

 

[Riyadh Haque]

^^^^^

The above quoted amendments are in clear violation of the sacred text called "Qarardaad-e-Pakistan" or Pakistan resolution....

Are you seriously saying that those amendments are unconstitutional?

If so, why hasn't the Supreme Court of Pakistan struck them down already?

Could you please explain your point in a little more detail?

 

[SajeevJino]

If an Indian or Israeli official say that their majority peolpe is their identity of their country like India for Hindus and Israel for Jewish.....Which one stands Islam or Chirstian or Buddhisam....

it's a comedy story from the comedian of Pakistani Army

 

[MadDog]

A recent survey in Pakistan by PEW research say that 41% of Pakistanis don't consider Shias as Muslims

If they don't consider Shia Muslims, then how come, The current President of Pakistan is a Shia, how come the current ruling political party is all Shia, how come Bhutto ( which many Pakistanis consider a great leader) was a shia. Around 20 % of the poppulation is Shia, ...infact how come Jinnah which every Pakistani refers to as Quiad-e-Azam (The Great Leader) was a Shia himself, this is absolute non sense what you are saying.

If an Indian or Israeli official say that their majority peolpe is their identity of their country like India for Hindus and Israel for Jewish.....Which one stands Islam or Chirstian or Buddhisam....

it's a comedy story from the comedian of Pakistani Army

@ SanjivJino

The main aim of COAS's speech is to clear the doubt in the mind of lower rank troops, since Pak Army is fighting the militants who claim to be fighting for Islam...that was the main aim...to increase their morale and to make sure there is no confusion in their minds. He defined terrorists in his speech...people who challenge our way of life and try to impose their's by using a gun.

For now you sound like a joker yourself mr sanjiv