"PAKISTAN HAS NEVER LOST" | Dr. Pravin Sawhney |

[Malik Shani]

Here's a list of territorial changes of Pakistan going back to 1958:

1. PM Muhammad Ali Bogra started four year long negotiations to purchase Gwadar from Oman, eventually acquired on 7th September 1958.
2. General Ayub Khan surrendred Shaksgam Valley to China on 2nd March 1963.
3. General Yahya Khan lost East Pakistan on 16th December 1971.
4. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier on 13th April 1984.
5. Brigadier Pervez Musharraf lost Quaid Post on 26th June 1987.
6. General Pervez Musharraf lost the Kargil War on 26th July 1999.
7. General Pervez Musharraf lost Waziristan on 5th September 2006.
8. PM Nawaz Sharif increased Pakistan's seabed territory by 50,000 sq km on 19th March 2015.
9. PM Nawaz Sharif's Operation Zarb-e-Azb liberates and annexes Waziristan on 3rd June 2016.
10. PM Imran Khan lost / allowed annexation of Kashmir on 5th August 2019.

If anyone has any information on the border settlement between Iran-Pakistan, I would appreciate it and also any information on Pakistani claim of the territory on Antartica would be a good read.

Bitter truth. I hope you won't get "ghaddar" or "patwari" remarks in this thread. As a nation, we should first admit and then learn from our mistakes.

In my opinion, point 10 could have been averted by equal proportion of measures; however, let's hope that we have a green point 11 this year and not a red one

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

The person specifically mentioned the western front it means 1971 war is excluded from the claim.

In 1971, indians needed 100s of 1000s of bengali militants with the support of 100 million bengalis to fight 50,000 Pakistani soldiers that were cut off from their mainland by 2750 kms. Once the fighting stopped, indians came in to reign in on the bengali celebrations.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

To be honest, I think Pakistani Kashmir and Indian Kashmir, plus parts of Jammu on both sides can be made an independent state. Pakistan can keep GB, and India can keep Ladakh.
And China can be taken on board on this.
After that, we should move towards Asian Union. Single currency, and one visa.
I mean, our people also deserve better life than this hell.

And rest of the Muslims of India can go to hell, right?

 

[fitpOsitive]

And rest of the Muslims of India can go to hell, right?

Pick arms like Kashmiris did, then we will surely talk for you well. I mean, we don't see any reaction from Indian Muslims, so we assume, everything is OK there.

 

[ziaulislam]

How do we define a war ? Or what is a war? Or why do countries go to war ?

Countries go to war when one feels that the other's action, policies or interests clash with it or it sees that to fulfill its own interest or policies it needs to occupy other territory or there are some historical or political differences which have been there or invented and are blown to hingh aspirations that to fulfill those aspirations it goes to war.

Countries start or initiate a war with defined objectives and plans to be executed to achieve those objectives at minimum loss to itself while inflicting maximum damage to other.

Now let us do an analysis of all the wars which happened between India and Pakistan.

1947 : Pakistan invaded the state of Jammu & Kashmir

Objective :to conquer Srinagar and force the Maharaja to Sign accession with Pakistan.

What Happened : maharaja signed Accession with India and India intervened and send army into state and pushed the Pakistani army and its supported Tribals back.

When ceasefire was declared Pakistan was pushed back and just held a strip of land in Jammu division and even small strip in Kashmir division along with Gilgit and Baltistan.

Inference : Pakistan could not execute its plans and failed to achieve its Objective .

Final result : Pakistan lost the war.

1965 : Pakistan initiated operation Grandslam and Gibraltor to instigate locals Kashmiri to revolt against India.

Objective : to initiate revolt against India and forcibly occupy and merge the state of J & K with Pakistan.

What happened : Pakistan air dropped many soldiers behind Indian lines with aim to instigate locals to revolt but locals reported their presence and they were arrested and killed by Indian army.

To support this infiltration Pakistan launched army action in J & K sector in August 1965 and were putting intense pressure on India in Chamb- Jodian sector, and were on verge to cut Jammu- Pathankot highway to isolate the state from India.

To ease pressure India crossed IB in Lahore and Sialkot sector on 5 th September.

Within few days India army was on outskirts of Lahore and Sialkot towns.

To protect these major towns Pakistan has to withdraw its forces from J & K sector.

Inference : Pakistan could not execute its plan and fulfill its objective to capture the state of J & K.

Final result : Pakistan does not acknowledge operation Grandslam and Gibralter but describes the war from time when India crossed IB in Lahore and Silkot sector and describes it self winner as it defended Lahore and Sialkot.

Final Result : strategically and Militarily Pakistan lost the 1965 war. As it failed to achieve its defined objectives.

1971 : Pakistan attacked airbases in north India on 3 rd December 1971.and started the war.

Objective : to activate western border and put pressure on India to not to interfere in East Pakistan.

What Happened : Indian eastern command went into East Pakistan from Meghalaya, Tripura and West Bengal and reached capital Decca without engaging or bypassing heavily defended cantonements on the way.

Indian navy destroyed Karachi and Chittagong ports and executed complete blocade of sea ports of Pakistan.

Indian airforce achieved air superiority on both east and west Pakistan Skies , PAF withdrew its remaining aircrafts to Iran.

Inference : Pakistan could not execute its plans to activate western borders to deter India from operation in East Pakistan.

Final Result : Bangladesh was created, 93000 Pakistani soldiers surrendered to India.
Pakistan lost the war comprehensively .

1999: Pakistan initiated operation in Kargil by occupying vacant positions on peak tops in winter.

Objective : to cut Srinagar-Leh highway to isolate Laddhak and Siachin .

What happened : India won back all the peaks and Pakistan has to withdraw on the face of heavy human losses.

Final result : Pakistan could not achieve its objective and lost the war.

I hope I have explained that Pakistan has lost all the 4 wars which happened between India and Pakistan since 1947.

i would agree with you 1948 war was definitively an Indian win..simply because it renegade from its promise...this was stupidity on Pakistan side to think india, ghandi, nehru will keep their promise..it would have been impossible for india to win on kashmir front than simply because of logistics and local support for tribals, the very reason why nehru agreed to such a resolution ..to bide time..he had no intention to follow it

1. 1948 a military stalemate but strategic victory to India taking half of Kashmir
2. 1965 a military stalemate but strategic defeat for India for inability to take back Kashmir
3. 1971 a military defeat for Pakistan on the eastern front and a stalemate for on western front but a strategic defeat for India IMO as again Kashmir remained with Pakistan..in reality east-west Pakistan was never workable to begin with..should have been two states as originally envisioned in 1940. india gained nothing from creating Bangladesh..if any it removed a strategic dilemma for Pakistan, as east Pakistan would have been very difficult to defend....Kashmir was thus decoupled from Bangladesh..resulting is now pakistan openly supporting militancy in Kashmir without fear of major repercussions
4. 1998 strategic blunder by india..wrong time to test nukes..right time was now(post-2015)..India overestimated its importance..in the process gave a window to Pakistan to become publically nuclear
5. 1999 stalemate but strategic defeat for India who lost clear important position
6. 2002 both military and strategic defeat for India lost 1000s of troops and achieved nothing..it also showed pakistan india is unable to do any serious quick attack on pakistan..it simply lacks the logistics to do sohttps://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...8-soldiers/articleshow/104948.cms?referral=PM
7. 2019 both military and strategic defeat for India..

Here's a list of territorial changes of Pakistan going back to 1958:

1. PM Muhammad Ali Bogra started four year long negotiations to purchase Gwadar from Oman, eventually acquired on 7th September 1958.
2. General Ayub Khan surrendred Shaksgam Valley to China on 2nd March 1963.
3. General Yahya Khan lost East Pakistan on 16th December 1971.
4. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier on 13th April 1984.
5. Brigadier Pervez Musharraf lost Quaid Post on 26th June 1987.
6. General Pervez Musharraf lost the Kargil War on 26th July 1999.
7. General Pervez Musharraf lost Waziristan on 5th September 2006.
8. PM Nawaz Sharif increased Pakistan's seabed territory by 50,000 sq km on 19th March 2015.
9. PM Nawaz Sharif's Operation Zarb-e-Azb liberates and annexes Waziristan on 3rd June 2016.
10. PM Imran Khan lost / allowed annexation of Kashmir on 5th August 2019.

If anyone has any information on the border settlement between Iran-Pakistan, I would appreciate it and also any information on Pakistani claim of the territory on Antartica would be a good read.

2..read your history
3-5 correct though whats the benefit of occupying siachin...NONE, on 5 we gained some posts lost some
8. common..military worked really hard for this..Nawaz sharif or his cabinet doesn't even know about this the work was started back in 2005 and claim submitted in PPPP era
10. say what? when was kashmir with pakistan

 

[Kabira]

To be honest, I think Pakistani Kashmir and Indian Kashmir, plus parts of Jammu on both sides can be made an independent state. Pakistan can keep GB, and India can keep Ladakh.
And China can be taken on board on this.
After that, we should move towards Asian Union. Single currency, and one visa.
I mean, our people also deserve better life than this hell.

AJK mountains provide natural protection to northern punjab and KP, no way in hell Pakistan should negotiate with that land.

 

[fitpOsitive]

AJK mountains provide natural protection to northern punjab and KP, no way in hell Pakistan should negotiate with that land.

I can understand your concerns, but bhai is terha tu yeh masla lakta hi rahyga.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This is why we'll never deal with our evils and progress.

No matter what India does, our mentality is to always find the flaw. It's irrational because the question begs, 'what did we do?' to deserve such authority? Nothing. Instead, we should accept the failures and losses India handed us, and work to correct our flaws. In all this time, I've seen us point more holes in India, yet let our gaps expand.

To be honest, the most dangerous enemy to India is the Pakistani who thinks like an Indian.

@JamD @Syed1.

 

[JamD]

This is why we'll never deal with our evils and progress.

No matter what India does, our mentality is to always find the flaw. It's irrational because the question begs, 'what did we do?' to deserve such authority? Nothing. Instead, we should accept the failures and losses India handed us, and work to correct our flaws. In all this time, I've seen us point more holes in India, yet let our gaps expand.

To be honest, the most dangerous enemy to India is the Pakistani who thinks like an Indian.

@JamD @Syed1.

I didn't even bother to open this thread and as a principle refuse to read what it's about lol.

 

[Syed1.]

This is why we'll never deal with our evils and progress.

No matter what India does, our mentality is to always find the flaw. It's irrational because the question begs, 'what did we do?' to deserve such authority? Nothing. Instead, we should accept the failures and losses India handed us, and work to correct our flaws. In all this time, I've seen us point more holes in India, yet let our gaps expand.

To be honest, the most dangerous enemy to India is the Pakistani who thinks like an Indian.

@JamD @Syed1.

I really don't understand why certain posters spend all day going through Indian twitter and videos of their 'defense analysts' to find out what they are saying about us. Smacks of insecurity tbh. Quite an Indian thing to do.

Case in point was when India's moon landing failed our people here were celebrating rather than being concerned that India is soooo far ahead in space technology.

 

[PradoTLC]

How do we define a war ? Or what is a war? Or why do countries go to war ?

Countries go to war when one feels that the other's action, policies or interests clash with it or it sees that to fulfill its own interest or policies it needs to occupy other territory or there are some historical or political differences which have been there or invented and are blown to hingh aspirations that to fulfill those aspirations it goes to war.

Countries start or initiate a war with defined objectives and plans to be executed to achieve those objectives at minimum loss to itself while inflicting maximum damage to other.

Now let us do an analysis of all the wars which happened between India and Pakistan.

1947 : Pakistan invaded the state of Jammu & Kashmir

Objective :to conquer Srinagar and force the Maharaja to Sign accession with Pakistan.

What Happened : maharaja signed Accession with India and India intervened and send army into state and pushed the Pakistani army and its supported Tribals back.

When ceasefire was declared Pakistan was pushed back and just held a strip of land in Jammu division and even small strip in Kashmir division along with Gilgit and Baltistan.

Inference : Pakistan could not execute its plans and failed to achieve its Objective .

Final result : Pakistan lost the war.

1965 : Pakistan initiated operation Grandslam and Gibraltor to instigate locals Kashmiri to revolt against India.

Objective : to initiate revolt against India and forcibly occupy and merge the state of J & K with Pakistan.

What happened : Pakistan air dropped many soldiers behind Indian lines with aim to instigate locals to revolt but locals reported their presence and they were arrested and killed by Indian army.

To support this infiltration Pakistan launched army action in J & K sector in August 1965 and were putting intense pressure on India in Chamb- Jodian sector, and were on verge to cut Jammu- Pathankot highway to isolate the state from India.

To ease pressure India crossed IB in Lahore and Sialkot sector on 5 th September.

Within few days India army was on outskirts of Lahore and Sialkot towns.

To protect these major towns Pakistan has to withdraw its forces from J & K sector.

Inference : Pakistan could not execute its plan and fulfill its objective to capture the state of J & K.

Final result : Pakistan does not acknowledge operation Grandslam and Gibralter but describes the war from time when India crossed IB in Lahore and Silkot sector and describes it self winner as it defended Lahore and Sialkot.

Final Result : strategically and Militarily Pakistan lost the 1965 war. As it failed to achieve its defined objectives.

1971 : Pakistan attacked airbases in north India on 3 rd December 1971.and started the war.

Objective : to activate western border and put pressure on India to not to interfere in East Pakistan.

What Happened : Indian eastern command went into East Pakistan from Meghalaya, Tripura and West Bengal and reached capital Decca without engaging or bypassing heavily defended cantonements on the way.

Indian navy destroyed Karachi and Chittagong ports and executed complete blocade of sea ports of Pakistan.

Indian airforce achieved air superiority on both east and west Pakistan Skies , PAF withdrew its remaining aircrafts to Iran.

Inference : Pakistan could not execute its plans to activate western borders to deter India from operation in East Pakistan.

Final Result : Bangladesh was created, 93000 Pakistani soldiers surrendered to India.
Pakistan lost the war comprehensively .

1999: Pakistan initiated operation in Kargil by occupying vacant positions on peak tops in winter.

Objective : to cut Srinagar-Leh highway to isolate Laddhak and Siachin .

What happened : India won back all the peaks and Pakistan has to withdraw on the face of heavy human losses.

Final result : Pakistan could not achieve its objective and lost the war.

I hope I have explained that Pakistan has lost all the 4 wars which happened between India and Pakistan since 1947.

may be..in your heads...

but we always gave you a very bloody nose.

I really don't understand why certain posters spend all day going through Indian twitter and videos of their 'defense analysts' to find out what they are saying about us. Smacks of insecurity tbh. Quite an Indian thing to do.

Case in point was when India's moon landing failed our people here were celebrating rather than being concerned that India is soooo far ahead in space technology.

they celebrate a non existent F-16 kill... kind of like weak students who get filler points to get them into the next class.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

...
8) how did he increased?

Pakistan seabed territory grows by 50,000 square kilometres

 

[Flash_Ninja]

It is fascinating that among the pre 1971 rulers of Pakistan, only Muhammad Ali Bogra(A Bengali from then East Pakistan) contributed to gain territory for West Pakistan. While West Pakistani origin rulers lost territory. Another Bengali leader Hussain Shahid Suhrawardy initiated friendly relationship with China when he was the Prime Minister. In 1957 he send a high level delegation to China to improve relationship with then isolated communist China. Now China is the most valuable strategic partner of Pakistan prove how visionary he was. Imagine Pakistan had not experienced military coup in 1958 and leaders like Muhammad Ali Bogra, HS Suhrawardy along with West Pakistani civil politicians continued to rule the country. A lot of bad blood and violence which happened later could have been avoided between East and West Pakistan.

That post is factually incorrect, Gwadar was the first territory gained obtained by diplomatic means; but it wasnt the only gain.

In 1963 FM Bhutto under President Ayub Khan, negotiated a deal with the chinese which resulted in Pakistan gaining 1942 sq km of territory.

 

[graphican]

I really don't understand why certain posters spend all day going through Indian twitter and videos of their 'defense analysts' to find out what they are saying about us. Smacks of insecurity tbh. Quite an Indian thing to do.

Case in point was when India's moon landing failed our people here were celebrating rather than being concerned that India is soooo far ahead in space technology.

@Syed1. ,

Shouldn't you rather pay people who keep an eye on your enemies and their ongoing media campaigns against you? Media is an instrument of war. Don't you think?

Besides, why would you NOT expose your enemy's propaganda using their own people? How many people do you find in India who can take a truthful stance independent of their state policy? There has to be a good reason to resist and give up such opportunities.

On moon landing failure, I hope you don't assume twitter's posts are Pakistan's National personality. Nations and states are not like a pencil-head; a single-tasking instrument which can either celebrate an enemy's failures OR work to make their country better. It is too simplistic assessment if you think since some kids are busy taunting India, the entire Nation is busy taunting India.

 

[GumNaam]

It is going to be a cactus for Indian throats, but as per Indian strategic and military expert Dr. Pravin Sawhney,

• India never won against Pakistan on the western front. If India had won, it would have changed the geography of LOC, the territory it claims - True.
• Militarily, Pakistan is not weak but pretends and benefits from this fabrication but India is militarily not strong yet pretends and suffers. - Feb 2019
• In Ladakh, China has got what it was after; a power to negotiate hard demands which India wasn't previously ready to concede. Dr. Pravin expects this will settle diplomatically with face-saving for India but strategic gains for China.