Pakistan has made impressive progress in reducing poverty:WB

[VCheng]

I don't want to read I am still shocked that the kid's video for appeal was on the internet and every news channel for a week and Gov did not take notice and when he died pml-n chamas comes out from every where and tells boy's father that King's brother would come tomorrow guess what King's brother did not come, you know why? the kid's father donated that money to IK's Peshawar Cancer Hospital whatever he had...such is the hate of noon league.

By the way my personal opinion is IMF is as corrupt as our Gov both for each other keeps happy they shall release statements of praise for each other if Gov specially complies.

The World Bank report under discussion is absolutely fair and evidence based.

 

[Donatello]

Congrats to pak..
g8 work
@Aeronaut @Chak Bamu @Manticore @Oscar @all mods and thinks tanks from pak
can you tell me these question ...
1. What programes GOP runs to achieve this ?
2. poverty measurement remains controversial in Pakistan as per report so What are pak official poverty line in $ and waht is the controversy ?
3. What are the private sector role in it?
4. Is education did its role ? what are latest Education enrolment in same period ?
5.Poverty reduction has been strongest in the traditionally poorer provinces of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Sindh, reason for this ?
6. despite huge social sector spending (MNAREGA , NRHM , Food security ) india still struggaling this issue .. waht are learning can be take our from pak experince..
thanks


--
ays a lot about many other important aspects, which are better for discussion.
can you list down few

I think it has got more to do with the culture we have. Pakistanis give a lot of money for charity, and there are some really good NGOs and organizations that are helping people in cities and rural areas. For example, people in Rural areas are being taught how to utilize their skills to start their own small scale businesses. This in turn helps their community in a wider sense. We pay Zakat (Islamic tax) which has to go to those who cannot afford luxuries in life, and so the poor have some sort of income. There lots of people helping run schools, hospitals, businesses where the idea is to provided free basic services. Corporations do their part in CSR. The cost of living in Pakistan is actually the cheapest, as basic stuff like food is not as expensive as in, say India. The cost of staple foods like wheat, rice, sugar is not as high as in India. After the insurgency in Swat region was over, majority of the people in region who were farmers, lost their livelihood, But government programs, army run programs, ngos all played their part in bringing normalcy back there. The crop output is higher now, with lots of focus on modern farming techniques help generate more revenue. A lot of villages are now getting solar power free of cost. There are micro hydro power stations to help alleviate power shortages. Fishermen are being given modern systems to help them deal with the transportation and care of their perishable produce.
The Agha Khan Development Fund has done a tremendous job at helping eradicate illiteracy and poverty in the Pakistan's Gilgit and Baltistan region.

The problem with India is it's large population. It will take time, but in reducing poverty, the proverb 'Teach a man to fish, and he will be able to feed himself for a lifetime' is the best bet. You make people self sufficient and in return they will help transfer those benefits to others.

Secondly, since Independence India followed strict socialist policies, Pakistan didn't. Pakistan was and is still a very open place to do business. India realized that government intervention in economic planning isn't working and thus opened up to market reforms in 1991. Pakistan never had this problem, we were always open for business. In 2005, for the first time Indian per capita GDP got ahead of Pakistan. So if India starting growing after 1991, that's 14 years until 2005. If a country like India took 14 years to overtake a poor country like Pakistan, then imagine how piss poor India was before that.

In India you have got economic growth, but you have too much high inflation. For people like you and me, it doesn't matter if onions sell for 50Rs per kg or 150Rs per kg. We can still afford it, but that person who was earning 1.5$ per day, to him it matters. So while the incomes grow, inflation is also growing, so the net effect is that people remain poor. If inflation is around 8% per year, is your income growing at 8% per year as well? because in that case, the net effect is near zero.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

I think it has got more to do with the culture we have. Pakistanis give a lot of money for charity, and there are some really good NGOs and organizations that are helping people in cities and rural areas. For example, people in Rural areas are being taught how to utilize their skills to start their own small scale businesses. This in turn helps their community in a wider sense. We pay Zakat (Islamic tax) which has to go to those who cannot afford luxuries in life, and so the poor have some sort of income. There lots of people helping run schools, hospitals, businesses where the idea is to provided free basic services. Corporations do their part in CSR. The cost of living in Pakistan is actually the cheapest, as basic stuff like food is not as expensive as in, say India. The cost of staple foods like wheat, rice, sugar is not as high as in India. After the insurgency in Swat region was over, majority of the people in region who were farmers, lost their livelihood, But government programs, army run programs, ngos all played their part in bringing normalcy back there. The crop output is higher now, with lots of focus on modern farming techniques help generate more revenue. A lot of villages are now getting solar power free of cost. There are micro hydro power stations to help alleviate power shortages. Fishermen are being given modern systems to help them deal with the transportation and care of their perishable produce.
The Agha Khan Development Fund has done a tremendous job at helping eradicate illiteracy and poverty in the Pakistan's Gilgit and Baltistan region.

The problem with India is it's large population. It will take time, but in reducing poverty, the proverb 'Teach a man to fish, and he will be able to feed himself for a lifetime' is the best bet. You make people self sufficient and in return they will help transfer those benefits to others.

Secondly, since Independence India followed strict socialist policies, Pakistan didn't. Pakistan was and is still a very open place to do business. India realized that government intervention in economic planning isn't working and thus opened up to market reforms in 1991. Pakistan never had this problem, we were always open for business. In 2005, for the first time Indian per capita GDP got ahead of Pakistan. So if India starting growing after 1991, that's 14 years until 2005. If a country like India took 14 years to overtake a poor country like Pakistan, then imagine how piss poor India was before that.

In India you have got economic growth, but you have too much high inflation. For people like you and me, it doesn't matter if onions sell for 50Rs per kg or 150Rs per kg. We can still afford it, but that person who was earning 1.5$ per day, to him it matters. So while the incomes grow, inflation is also growing, so the net effect is that people remain poor. If inflation is around 8% per year, is your income growing at 8% per year as well? because in that case, the net effect is near zero.

---
thanks for reply..
---
Charity..
yes islam have that one component inbuilt so it helps ..
same in Hnduism too Daan -charity is integral part .. but voultary..
Temples since ancinet period are mark of wealth and even now indian temple have cr of walth like any MNC
Impact on poverty.
it wil cater few and not look in to skill and employment in large form
---
CSR
in india with large private sector
CSR was imp component now GOI made 2% profit of certain level of companies MANDATORY
Impact on poverty.
it wil cater few and vague like in enviroment , skill edu
Impact on poverty.
it wil cater few and not look POVERTY as issue
---
india followed strict socialist policies
india was insppried by USSR ..
socilisam was required to build nation as central control on national resource was imp that time in lieue of nay systema nd mechanisam
we opend in 1991 not by choice but by circumstance ...too seems it good...
socialiam helped s to buidl core industry and big psu but same time indiscipline ,,, strong union .. chalta hai attituf also came withthat ...
Impact on poverty.
sociliams tried to have control to state for effective distruintuon of mean of wealth
which seems worked but not up to the expected level .
--
Inlfation
yes ... inflation is taking heavy toll on poor in india ..
proteni and vegrtbale is high on price
reason
some time nature
most of time ineffective logistice /supply chain/ bad agri marketing polices
--
Though you provided insight ,private people / ngo have limited impact ..
if WB said that povery gone down means there is somthing whihc is RIGHT by govt ot by system..
GOP/GOI have ability and resources to take that povery number down sharply ...no other
---
you answered my few question .. rest im waiting for
... in india we spend so much
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rural_Employment_Guarantee_Act_2005-

National Rural Health Mission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

National Food Security Act, 2013 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

--
So Despite this gove instituional progarme ...
we are lacking...
so lloking forward
what you guys doing right that we can do it tooo

 

[Donatello]

---
thanks for reply..
---
Charity..
yes islam have that one component inbuilt so it helps ..
same in Hnduism too Daan -charity is integral part .. but voultary..
Temples since ancinet period are mark of wealth and even now indian temple have cr of walth like any MNC
Impact on poverty.
it wil cater few and not look in to skill and employment in large form
---
CSR
in india with large private sector
CSR was imp component now GOI made 2% profit of certain level of companies MANDATORY
Impact on poverty.
it wil cater few and vague like in enviroment , skill edu
Impact on poverty.
it wil cater few and not look POVERTY as issue
---
india followed strict socialist policies
india was insppried by USSR ..
socilisam was required to build nation as central control on national resource was imp that time in lieue of nay systema nd mechanisam
we opend in 1991 not by choice but by circumstance ...too seems it good...
socialiam helped s to buidl core industry and big psu but same time indiscipline ,,, strong union .. chalta hai attituf also came withthat ...
Impact on poverty.
sociliams tried to have control to state for effective distruintuon of mean of wealth
which seems worked but not up to the expected level .
--
Inlfation
yes ... inflation is taking heavy toll on poor in india ..
proteni and vegrtbale is high on price
reason
some time nature
most of time ineffective logistice /supply chain/ bad agri marketing polices
--
Though you provided insight ,private people / ngo have limited impact ..
if WB said that povery gone down means there is somthing whihc is RIGHT by govt ot by system..
GOP/GOI have ability and resources to take that povery number down sharply ...no other
---
you answered my few question .. rest im waiting for
... in india we spend so much
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rural_Employment_Guarantee_Act_2005- View attachment 42328 View attachment 42328
National Rural Health Mission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
View attachment 42329

What questions are you exactly looking for? I provided a general plausible explanation overall. With India, the problem is that it's 4 time bigger in land area and about 7 times bigger in population. So your task to eradicate poverty is equally severe. For example, When India divided itself into 28 states or so, some states did better than others. Gujarat and Maharashtra have lower poverty rates then say, assam or odisha. You have to take into account that places in the far north east or north west (J&K) sometimes don't have the natural advantage. Installing industry in the plains of Gujarat, next to the shipping ports is easier than setting up in unstable regions. Even in Pakistan, Punjab seems to be doing very well, but Balochistan not so. The terrain is hindrance in delivering infrastructure projects. Sometimes it's cultural backwardness. People in FATA do not want their kids going to schools, women should stay at home, they don't want polio vaccinations. This overall inhibits their understanding of poverty and the hardships their future generations would have to endure. Like i said, Pakistan is much smaller compared to India, and as such any government/NGO/UNDP programs that take place can be enacted quickly. There is more people to people contact, and like i said, a lot of Pakistanis who were educated abroad, come back to help setup these organizations. There is a genuine interest in Pakistanis to help those who are not so fortunate.


There is a place called Orangi in Karachi, a very poor slum like neighborhood. In 1980s, private individual efforts led to the establishment for Orangi Pilot Project, which later was featured in the National Geographic and various universities as a case study project. They have done a tremendous job of providing a better overall life to about 1 million or so people. Maybe India can learn something and implement for it's Dharavi slum in Mumbai?

 

[pursuit of happiness]

What questions are you exactly looking for? I provided a general plausible explanation overall. With India, the problem is that it's 4 time bigger in land area and about 7 times bigger in population. So your task to eradicate poverty is equally severe. For example, When India divided itself into 28 states or so, some states did better than others. Gujarat and Maharashtra have lower poverty rates then say, assam or odisha. You have to take into account that places in the far north east or north west (J&K) sometimes don't have the natural advantage. Installing industry in the plains of Gujarat, next to the shipping ports is easier than setting up in unstable regions. Even in Pakistan, Punjab seems to be doing very well, but Balochistan not so. The terrain is hindrance in delivering infrastructure projects. Sometimes it's cultural backwardness. People in FATA do not want their kids going to schools, women should stay at home, they don't want polio vaccinations. This overall inhibits their understanding of poverty and the hardships their future generations would have to endure. Like i said, Pakistan is much smaller compared to India, and as such any government/NGO/UNDP programs that take place can be enacted quickly. There is more people to people contact, and like i said, a lot of Pakistanis who were educated abroad, come back to help setup these organizations. There is a genuine interest in Pakistanis to help those who are not so fortunate.


There is a place called Orangi in Karachi, a very poor slum like neighborhood. In 1980s, private individual efforts led to the establishment for Orangi Pilot Project, which later was featured in the National Geographic and various universities as a case study project. They have done a tremendous job of providing a better overall life to about 1 million or so people. Maybe India can learn something and implement for it's Dharavi slum in Mumbai?

--
yes you are right landmass and population have ots own challend to india wrt poverty
what i am looking out is GOP.. instituional mechanisam programe which helped to get povery
down
exa. Orangi Pilot Project,
Orangi Pilot Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
project like these .. impact people livelihood and poverty reduciton at g8 extent..
as both india and pak have similar isue to handle with
we can learn from each other
so its our time to replicate best practices from pak

 

[pursuit of happiness]

another perspective ..
----------------
World Bank's poverty figures don't add up - Hindustan Times
The World Bank’s revision of its 2005 method of calculating poverty has only served to make contentious an already hot issue on which much of central government policy depends. The National Food Security Law has a special provision for the antyodaya population, in the calculation of whose numbers the poverty line will have to be taken into account. In terms of the purchasing power parity (PPP) index of 2005, India had 400 million poor people in 2010, which is more than what has been estimated by the C Rangarajan panel. However, the Bank has revised the formula and, along with a new global poverty line, has arrived at the conclusion that India’s population below the poverty line is lower than 100 million. Considering that there are targets regarding poverty reduction in the Millennium Development Goals, one could even suspect a piece of statistical manipulation involved in this.



It was only in early July that the Rangarajan panel had put out its figures, according to which 29.5%, or 363 million, of India’s population were poor in 2011-12. In calculating this, the panel had used Rs. 47 in urban areas and Rs. 32 in rural areas as the threshold income levels. Before this, the Suresh Tendulkar panel report, going by the Planning Commission methodology, had ventured to suggest 21.9% of India’s population were poor in 2011-12. However, this method was received with a wide degree of scepticism.

A lot of things have not been said in the World Bank report. Was the Bank looking at just access to food, or had taken into account education and healthcare as well? Was it using consumption baskets or some similar criterion? Secondly, using global benchmarks in calculating poverty can be misleading. PPP is based on the assumption that the proportion of the price levels in two countries is equal to their exchange rates. Given that, if one were to find out whether a person with one dollar in hand is richest in India, Sierra Leone or Uzbekistan, one has to look at the real effective exchange rate. This just ends up being a game of numbers. Hence, everything considered, it is advisable not to give much credence to the World Bank report.

 

[Saquibk]

---
thanks for reply..
---
Charity..
yes islam have that one component inbuilt so it helps ..
same in Hnduism too Daan -charity is integral part .. but voultary..
Temples since ancinet period are mark of wealth and even now indian temple have cr of walth like any MNC
Impact on poverty.
it wil cater few and not look in to skill and employment in large form
---
CSR
in india with large private sector
CSR was imp component now GOI made 2% profit of certain level of companies MANDATORY
Impact on poverty.
it wil cater few and vague like in enviroment , skill edu
Impact on poverty.
it wil cater few and not look POVERTY as issue
---
india followed strict socialist policies
india was insppried by USSR ..
socilisam was required to build nation as central control on national resource was imp that time in lieue of nay systema nd mechanisam
we opend in 1991 not by choice but by circumstance ...too seems it good...
socialiam helped s to buidl core industry and big psu but same time indiscipline ,,, strong union .. chalta hai attituf also came withthat ...
Impact on poverty.
sociliams tried to have control to state for effective distruintuon of mean of wealth
which seems worked but not up to the expected level .
--
Inlfation
yes ... inflation is taking heavy toll on poor in india ..
proteni and vegrtbale is high on price
reason
some time nature
most of time ineffective logistice /supply chain/ bad agri marketing polices
--
Though you provided insight ,private people / ngo have limited impact ..
if WB said that povery gone down means there is somthing whihc is RIGHT by govt ot by system..
GOP/GOI have ability and resources to take that povery number down sharply ...no other
---
So Despite this gove instituional progarme ...
we are lacking...
so lloking forward
what you guys doing right that we can do it tooo

A few things that are different in Pakistan compared with India

Remittance from overseas Pakistanis is higher as a proportion of GDP than India. Pakistan has historically closer ties with Muslim and western countries. A large number of people went to these countries since Independence and then sponsored their relatives. Pakistan also allows dual nationality unlike India, so expatriates retain a link with their homeland. Remittances play a major role in reducing poverty.

Army is larger in Pakistan compared with population. And Pakistani Army takes better care of its soldier and their families compared with India. That also lifts a large number of people out of poverty.

In India lower caste people and minorities find it hard to break through poverty trap. Upper caste Hindus probably have the same level of poverty as Pakistan. Most of poverty in India is among lower castes and minorities. Pakistan does not have this problem.

Punjab is the most prosperous region in both India and Pakistan. 60% of Pakistan's population lives in Punjab. Indian Punjab probably has same level of poverty as Pakistani Punjab but it does not make as big an impact overall as in Pakistan.

Pakistan has historically received more foreign aid as a % of GDP than India. It not only brings money but also expertise. That has also helped reduce poverty.

A dual edged thing is the large number of Islamic madrassas in Pakistan, which get funding from rich Muslim countries. On one hand they spread extremism but on the other hand they provide free 'education' and food and residence to hundreds of thousands of poor children.

Hope that explains lower poverty levels in Pakistan.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

A few things that are different in Pakistan compared with India

Remittance from overseas Pakistanis is higher as a proportion of GDP than India. Pakistan has historically closer ties with Muslim and western countries. A large number of people went to these countries since Independence and then sponsored their relatives. Pakistan also allows dual nationality unlike India, so expatriates retain a link with their homeland. Remittances play a major role in reducing poverty.

Army is larger in Pakistan compared with population. And Pakistani Army takes better care of its soldier and their families compared with India. That also lifts a large number of people out of poverty.

In India lower caste people and minorities find it hard to break through poverty trap. Upper caste Hindus probably have the same level of poverty as Pakistan. Most of poverty in India is among lower castes and minorities. Pakistan does not have this problem.

Punjab is the most prosperous region in both India and Pakistan. 60% of Pakistan's population lives in Punjab. Indian Punjab probably has same level of poverty as Pakistani Punjab but it does not make as big an impact overall as in Pakistan.

Pakistan has historically received more foreign aid as a % of GDP than India. It not only brings money but also expertise. That has also helped reduce poverty.

A dual edged thing is the large number of Islamic madrassas in Pakistan, which get funding from rich Muslim countries. On one hand they spread extremism but on the other hand they provide free 'education' and food and residence to hundreds of thousands of poor children.

Hope that explains lower poverty levels in Pakistan.

--
Remittance ..
see absolute numbers ..
% GDP will be greater to pak as its denominatore is smaller than india
» Top-10 Remittance Receiving Countries by Country Income Group , 2013

----
Army
Pak army have other business interest n pak industry which not in case of india...
so pak army have more resuece and control over industry
how much % of GDP they contribute?

--
lower caste and poverty..
yes .. partly right ..
due to historical socio econmic backgroud .. getting them in to main strema.. skil development is taking time
Minorites ave diffrent case..
Muslim ... most backward .. due to less focus on education.. high drop out rate...relgious misconception..
Parsi - richest in india.. as per them those who have INR 50,000/month and less are POOR ...
so minorities have bigger canvas and extremes
. Pakistan does not have this problem.-- may i know why any data of break uo of poverty levels across polulation ?
--
Aid
agree
--
Madarsas...
we can compare it with indian temples
as they are reach but dont impart professional education ..
any study to have idea how much funding madaras got ?
--
thanks for reply?

 

[dil_dil]

--
Remittance ..
see absolute numbers ..
% GDP will be greater to pak as its denominatore is smaller than india
» Top-10 Remittance Receiving Countries by Country Income Group , 2013
View attachment 42643View attachment 42643
----
Army
Pak army have other business interest n pak industry which not in case of india...
so pak army have more resuece and control over industry
how much % of GDP they contribute?

--
lower caste and poverty..
yes .. partly right ..
due to historical socio econmic backgroud .. getting them in to main strema.. skil development is taking time
Minorites ave diffrent case..
Muslim ... most backward .. due to less focus on education.. high drop out rate...relgious misconception..
Parsi - richest in india.. as per them those who have INR 50,000/month and less are POOR ...
so minorities have bigger canvas and extremes
. Pakistan does not have this problem.-- may i know why any data of break uo of poverty levels across polulation ?
--
Aid
agree
--
Madarsas...
we can compare it with indian temples
as they are reach but dont impart professional education ..
any study to have idea how much funding madaras got ?
--
thanks for reply?

Will never understand Indians giving pathetic excuses for Indian muslim misery. What about Indian dalits? And the fact that only Sri Lanka have less poverty then ''muslim'' Pakistan in South Asia.

 

[guru1]

Will never understand Indians giving pathetic excuses for Indian muslim misery. What about Indian dalits? And the fact that only Sri Lanka have less poverty then ''muslim'' Pakistan in South Asia.

pakistan muslim literacy rate is same as indian muslims and way lower than indian hindus and it is not only true in india but also in western countries like USA ,UK where hindus have high literacy rate ,high per capita income and low crime rate and birth rate compared to muslims.

 

[dil_dil]

pakistan muslim literacy rate is same as indian muslims and way lower than indian hindus and it is not only true in india but also in western countries like USA ,UK where hindus have high literacy rate ,high per capita income and low crime rate and birth rate compared to muslims.

Yet India is still more poor then Pakistan.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

Will never understand Indians giving pathetic excuses for Indian muslim misery. What about Indian dalits? And the fact that only Sri Lanka have less poverty then ''muslim'' Pakistan in South Asia.

---
Read sacchar committe report of GOI ...
---
Indian muslim misery,,
yes .. they are in misery..
let me give it bluntly...
its 90 % becuase them only.. 10 % due to state ..
---
10 %
See UP .. BIhar .. and other state dominated by Muslim
it was alwasys voted on Relgious line more than real issue of education, water, house, health...
same can be terms of dalits ..on caste basis...
since decades political parties used them for VOTE BANK and they allowed to let them us it.
---
90%
High drop out rate
education... muslim have own system of education (protected by constition of india )
Low level of girl education..
Low level of professional education
large size of Family
Polygamy
Misconception ..like not giving polio drops...
radical ideology .. used by anti social elements
till,
muslim community will give,
Right to Women.. of freedom, education,
Education .. including... madrasa.. profesisnal eduction
Leaders .. electing people for right priorotis than religion..
---
condition in india is not acceptable ...
but is INDIA as nation 100% respobsible for it ... NO
its 1st community to stand on his feet...
govt then support to walk and run...
it will apply everywhere...

Yet India is still more poor then Pakistan.

--
yes true... so what the point

@oye_natta
its not indian conspiracy to keep muslim poor
they are poor becuase themself...
--
if indian govt wanted them to be poor by design
Azim premzi... a indian happpens to be muslim....
is billionoair ...
he establsied WIPRO and now going education sector..
that the way....

 

[HariPrasad]

This is simply great!!!!!!! Well done Pakistan Keep it up!!!!!!!!!!

What questions are you exactly looking for? I provided a general plausible explanation overall. With India, the problem is that it's 4 time bigger in land area and about 7 times bigger in population. So your task to eradicate poverty is equally severe. For example, When India divided itself into 28 states or so, some states did better than others. Gujarat and Maharashtra have lower poverty rates then say, assam or odisha. You have to take into account that places in the far north east or north west (J&K) sometimes don't have the natural advantage. Installing industry in the plains of Gujarat, next to the shipping ports is easier than setting up in unstable regions. Even in Pakistan, Punjab seems to be doing very well, but Balochistan not so. The terrain is hindrance in delivering infrastructure projects. Sometimes it's cultural backwardness. People in FATA do not want their kids going to schools, women should stay at home, they don't want polio vaccinations. This overall inhibits their understanding of poverty and the hardships their future generations would have to endure. Like i said, Pakistan is much smaller compared to India, and as such any government/NGO/UNDP programs that take place can be enacted quickly. There is more people to people contact, and like i said, a lot of Pakistanis who were educated abroad, come back to help setup these organizations. There is a genuine interest in Pakistanis to help those who are not so fortunate.


There is a place called Orangi in Karachi, a very poor slum like neighborhood. In 1980s, private individual efforts led to the establishment for Orangi Pilot Project, which later was featured in the National Geographic and various universities as a case study project. They have done a tremendous job of providing a better overall life to about 1 million or so people. Maybe India can learn something and implement for it's Dharavi slum in Mumbai?

Good analysis.