Pakistan first to China’s table for HQ-9 (S300) , HQ-16 missile systems

[Zarvan]

What frenzy? compared to the Indian weapons procurement frenzy...

Still man in last two months pretty much all good news are related to our defence and buying of various weapons

 

[subanday]

What frenzy? compared to the Indian weapons procurement frenzy...

We can't compete them head on, but keeping in light of our economic condition we r spending a lot

 

[The SC]

We can't compete them head on, but keeping in light of our economic condition we r spending a lot

Pakistan is just spending what it can realistically afford to, there is nothing to worry about. Yes there are many other issues to be addressed, but so it is for India.
This is not competing, but survival of the fittest. A lion or a tiger can not take on a huge bull or an elephant alone, but the bull or the elephant will avoid a fight against a lion or tiger if they can...because of his deadly weapons.

Still man in last two months pretty much all good news are related to our defence and buying of various weapons

The previous months news were full of good infrastructure news...

 

[WishLivePak]

Depends on the altitude of the aircraft, speed and direction of the aircraft. Most shoulder fired missiles have restricted altitudes, since the missile itself is smaller and can't carry too much fuel. The Pakistani Anza missile, equivalent to Stinger, Strela or Igla, can knock out low flying jets and helicopters.

View attachment 211768

View attachment 211769

ANZA MK-II Specifications

L Type 2-stage, low altitude
Length
(missile, with booster motor) 1.447 m
Weight 16.5 kg
(total launch assembly in
firing condition)
(missile at launch) 10.68 kg
Propulsion solid fuel booster and solid fuel sustainer rocket motor
Guidance cooled InSb passive infra-red homing seeker
Warhead HE fragmentation (containing 0.55 Kg HE) with contact and
graze fuzing
Average missile cruise speed 600 m/s
Max missile manoeuvring 16 g
Self destruction time 14-18 s
Max effective slant range 5,000 m
Min effective slant range 500 m
Max effective altitude 4000 m
Min effective altitude 30 m
Weapon reaction time less than 3.5 s
Time from march to ready less than 10 s
for operation
Battery operation time more than 50 s

With missiles like this, you're looking at an engagement altitude of less than 3 km.

This wont counter high altitude aircraft, stand-off ranges or munitions and has limited effectiveness against fast-flying aircraft too. But against helicopters and low flying attack platforms, such as Jaguar, it can be very effective.



Just like Patriot, THAAD and S-300, I would expect HQ-9 - as a modern missile, to have this capability too. Those quotes don't refer to the missile itself (it's flight time is too short to act as a command module), but the command module's ability to take control over other parts of an individual or connected battery. One Patriot command unit can control several Patriot batteries from a single location. US warships have this capability too.

It's not unique, but it is useful for networked defense structures.

Just like the MIM-104 Patriot of the United States, the FM-3000 can be used to command other air defense weapons on the battlefield.

FM-3000 air defense system on display at Zhuhai Air Show｜WantChinaTimes.com

*I know this isn't a trusted source in China, or else where for that matter, but the information is still accurate regarding Patriot. I can't validate it for FM-3000 though.

Plenty of information on Patriot's battlefield organization - MIM-104 Patriot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are there better American or Russian ones? 3km range isn't enough in today's standard. I suppose these are more for helicopters mostly.

 

[Víðarr]

Are there better American or Russian ones?

No, the Russian 9k38 Igla has a flight ceiling of 3.5 km and a range of 5.2 km. The US FIM-92 Stinger, which is almost never used by the US anyway, has a range of 4.8 km.

9K38 Igla

FIM-92 Stinger

Mistral, QW-3 and similar shoulder fired missile all fall into the same trap. You are right though, these are typically anti-helicopter systems.

For shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles, 3 km is the standard, even today.

However, their range and profile can be increased using a mounted system like the US AN/TWQ-1 Avenger. This system combines the Stinger missile with several .50 guns onto a HMMWV.

Avenger Low Level Air Defence System

Or Japan's Type 93 SAM

Type 93 Surface-to-air missile

A large system would be the Russian Pantsir-S1, whose missile have a flight ceiling of 15 km and a range of 20 km.

Pantsyr S1 Close Range Air Defence System

Even these tend to lack range though. They also have the drawback of being larger systems whose profiles could compromise their position and thus effectiveness. They certainty don't have the same "surprise factor" of a man-portable missile system.

 

[WishLivePak]

No, the Russian 9k38 Igla has a flight ceiling of 3.5 km and a range of 5.2 km. The US FIM-92 Stinger, which is almost never used by the US anyway, has a range of 4.8 km.

9K38 Igla

FIM-92 Stinger

Mistral, QW-3 and similar shoulder fired missile all fall into the same trap. You are right though, these are typically anti-helicopter systems.

For shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles, 3 km is the standard, even today.

However, their range and profile can be increased using a mounted system like the US AN/TWQ-1 Avenger. This system combines the Stinger missile with several .50 guns onto a HMMWV.

Avenger Low Level Air Defence System

View attachment 211803

Or Japan's Type 93 SAM

Type 93 Surface-to-air missile

View attachment 211804

A large system would be the Russian Pantsir-S1, whose missile have a flight ceiling of 15 km and a range of 20 km.

Pantsyr S1 Close Range Air Defence System

View attachment 211805

Even these tend to lack range though. They also have the drawback of being larger systems whose profiles could compromise their position and thus effectiveness. They certainty don't have the same "surprise factor" of a man-portable missile system.

Indeed.

I guess what we have is good enough. As a plan descends to make a attack, we can take these ones out. But of course next generation and newer aircraft won't be needing to come down. In that case SAM will be best!

 

[Zarvan]

No, the Russian 9k38 Igla has a flight ceiling of 3.5 km and a range of 5.2 km. The US FIM-92 Stinger, which is almost never used by the US anyway, has a range of 4.8 km.

9K38 Igla

FIM-92 Stinger

Mistral, QW-3 and similar shoulder fired missile all fall into the same trap. You are right though, these are typically anti-helicopter systems.

For shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles, 3 km is the standard, even today.

However, their range and profile can be increased using a mounted system like the US AN/TWQ-1 Avenger. This system combines the Stinger missile with several .50 guns onto a HMMWV.

Avenger Low Level Air Defence System

View attachment 211803

Or Japan's Type 93 SAM

Type 93 Surface-to-air missile

View attachment 211804

A large system would be the Russian Pantsir-S1, whose missile have a flight ceiling of 15 km and a range of 20 km.

Pantsyr S1 Close Range Air Defence System

View attachment 211805

Even these tend to lack range though. They also have the drawback of being larger systems whose profiles could compromise their position and thus effectiveness. They certainty don't have the same "surprise factor" of a man-portable missile system.

Russia offered this one to us but good thing is we are going for Long Range HQ 9 and medium range HQ 16 @Oscar You would be most happy on this news

 

[Zarvan]

Why don't we get them straight from Russia? SAM sites are for self defence, Indians shouldnt get pissed off

Russia has offered us three types of short and medium range Air Defence systems and yes we should buy them but HQ 9 and HQ 16 are too good and can't be ignored

 

[princefaisal]

latest Pantsyr and S-350 from Russia can be considered

 

[Golden Eagle 007]

Pakistan was the first country to start negotiations with China on the import of the HQ-9 medium to long-range active radar homing surface-to-air missile and the HQ-16 truck-based vertically launched surface-to-air missile, according to the April 2015 edition of Kanwa Defense Review.

It’s not surprising that Pakistan is choosing the HQ-9 to arm its air force given that its early warning aircraft and the majority of its fighters are Chinese, according to the journal.

Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan are also among potential customers for China’s anti-aircraft missiles, possibly frustrating exports of Russia’s S-300 series of long range surface-to-air missile systems, originally developed by the Soviet Union.

The report also said that China is planning to sell a range of equipment to Kazakhstan, including the Wing Loong or Yilong 1 drone.

At the beginning of the 20th Century, many of these former Soviet states exported weapons to China. Kazakhstan, for example, exported torpedoes, while Azerbaijan was formerly a major production base for Su-25 ground attack aircraft. China once received a Su-25 from Ukraine for research purposes. Now it seems the tides have turned and China is providing weapons for them, the report said.

Pakistan first to China's table for HQ-9 (S300) , HQ-16 missile systems - idrw.orgidrw.org

Link doesnt work

There is a misunderstanding

Its an open secret now that PAF is currently in possession of HQ-9 and FD2000 batteries for quite some time, in fact this news was leaked on this very forum. The negotiations were in advanced stages to procure batteries for HQ-16, i think the newspaper is probably referring to that.

can you backup your claim with some proof..like some pictures etc

 

[Zarvan]

Link doesnt work


can you backup your claim with some proof..like some pictures etc

Try this one

Pakistan first to China's table for HQ-9, HQ-16 missile systems｜WantChinaTimes.com

 

[Golden Eagle 007]

look like pakistan china agree and whole sale prices these days

wondering if there is buy one get one free policy

 

[aqdus]

While everyone is happily jumping up and down on the recent un-precedented arms purchase spree, please do not forget to give unbiased due credit to the government for improving the economy to enable all this shopping and supporting our armed forces in their modernization/strengthening.

Let them work peacefully and reap the benefits of better policies and improved economy.

YUP i agree and now I think it could have been much better than this without those dharnas and protests which only cause destruction and loss to us.

 

[Golden Eagle 007]

It looks like Pakistan is going for intense, multilayered SAM coverage. The HQ9 is a beast, 200km operational range, although some sources state 125 and a ceiling of 27km. I wonder how many batteries will be ordered. Small batches at first I think and then more substantial numbers.
Pakistan's airspace will be a nightmare to fly into, a nightmare from which an adversary won't wake up from...

The same strategy is adopted by china . multi layers of SAMs

this acquisition will force our adversary to go for 5th gen option earlier then their planed timeline, which mean to balance the change dynamics of Aerial warfare in South Asia we would also required to field 5 gen option within 2-3 years time when India get her first 5th gen jet so the expected time line for the operational 5th gent jet in skies of South Asia should be somewhat similar to this

HQ-9 SAM acquisition & Operationalization in Pakistan should be around 2017-2018
5th Gen option for India should be around 2018-2020
& 5th gen jet for Pakistan should come around 2021-2023

things would really move fast after that acquisition ....

Problem is there are not enough suppliers to provide 5th generation in 2021-2023 timeline.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

This report clearly mentions that US $ 266 million was used up in financial year 2013-14 for LY-80 systems Incl radar.

As all Chinese SAM contracts (except MANPADs) deliveries begin after 18-24 months after signing ( eg Myanmar recieved first KS-1 SAM in 2014 even though contract was signed in early 2012.) the missiles have not been delivered to Pakistan yet.

What's even funnier is that Pak members are claiming all three batteries delivered without knowing that it takes atleast 18 months to complete a order of three batteries from first delivery to final delivery.

This report clearly mentions that US $ 266 million was used up in financial year 2013-14 for LY-80 systems Incl radar.

As all Chinese SAM contracts (except MANPADs) deliveries begin after 18-24 months after signing ( eg Myanmar recieved first KS-1 SAM in 2014 even though contract was signed in early 2012.) the missiles have not been delivered to Pakistan yet.

What's even funnier is that Pak members are claiming all three batteries delivered without knowing that it takes atleast 18 months to complete a order of three batteries from first delivery to final delivery.

Allow me to tell you an even funnier part on Pakistani side which is totally un-comprehendible to the whole world not excluding you people who are amused with documented facts and that is we the Pakistanis show off when it's much needed to declared or else usually we kept it secret and when required we do as you see documentation bla bla bla ... So don't sell this 18 to 20 month procurement sh!t to us and keep it for you Raphel deal. We buy what we need just like that and we don't give a rat to declare it to the world so it's easy for us to shove it up to the a$$ of those whose trying to be adventurous to us.