Pakistan First ! The case for Pakistani Nationalism.

[Baibars_1260]

Awesome read, a comedy of errors and old-world intrigue, but believable, although astounding. Thanks for sharing.
You know, you have an interesting mind. Although I've quit smoking, but a nice cigar, and a glass of our favourite, mine is always neat, with Qawwali or a Ghazal in the background, I am sure your stories would never end lol
I've met one too many who believe in stories so crazy that one is forced to think, do they even know how to think.

Sometimes the full truth is never known and sometimes it is known long after :
Example: ( Link )
It is unfortunate that I cannot name the persons involved. The children of the participants of this Stalinist era intrigue (on both sides of India and Pakistan ) are very respectable and renowned families , who would much rather live in anonymous seclusion . Most are living abroad and their parents are dead.

A visit to the CPI/ CPM headquarters in India, and their library will reveal who the person's involved were. A professional investigative journalist should take this story up as an assignment, though it is unlikely that the CPI will take kindly to the revelations 73 years later after some its brightest and most adventurous cadres have passed away. These political parties would like to protect the descendants of their most intrepid and dedicated members ; especially the Muslims in this era of RSS dominated politics in India.
The legacy Aligarh University "Surkhey" crowd is now very old and decrepit, and even the second tier are moving into their eternal rest.
Our security apparatus has all the files and data, but given Pakistan's desire to keep relations with Russia on an even keel as of now, it is highly unlikely that the names of the Indian Muslim leftists who transited Pakistan into the Soviet Union will be revealed. Pakistan's concerns were with the CPP only which it dismantled very quickly.
Am not going to name persons here. The Indians can do what they want.

Not to pick hairs, but your original quotation had inferred a different meaning, there was no offer of massive aid or taking of Kashmir directly to the Pakistani state. I only say this because our poor Pakistani friends, who will read your comments, seem to develop a vivid imagination of a crazy kind. lol

I confess that not every thing can be referenced and revealed here. Two persons in their 90s not afraid of the consequences are likely telling the truth especially since they are not connected. But do I have Google links to prove what they said is correct? Of course not!
Just as we will never know the full details of Pakistan's involvement in the Anti Soviet Afghan war in our lifetime, we will likely never know the murky details of what went on in those days.

The overall picture adds up, The Soviets were backing the united CPI before it split into the CPP . Briefly the Soviets had hopes from the CPP, and then gave up after Pakistani intelligence dismantled the apparatus. No one remembers Jam Saqi these days. Faiz's case is well known.,

I am sure the Soviet Embassy records have long been revealed to the powers that be.

Gin and tonic with Angastura bitters. Cheers.

 

[untitled]

1.How do we define the Ummah ?

In it's purest form, a Muslim superstate ruled by a Spirtual-ruler/Sultan/Amir. I personally believe that this is not possible because the Muslim world is too large and too culturally diverse to be ruled by single ruler or form of government. That is why I believe in more of a EU style union than a super-state

2.Was there ever a united Ummah?

For a brief period yes

3. Why is an Ummah necessary for Pakistan?

This question can be answered in many ways but I will go with the same reason you want an expanded Pakistani federation.

The concept of a Federation is listed in the 1940 Pakistan Resolution which was the original idea behind the founding of Pakistan.

But the Pakistan resolution was written with Muslim majority British-Indian territories in mind. Absorbing Afghanistan or Central Asian states was never on the cards then.

Having said that it will take a lot persuation on Pakitan's part to spearhead the formation of this federation of yours. Unless we have some rare natural resources, some ground-breaking technology, unlimited wealth or some unique expertise, how do you think we will be able to convince these counteries to form a union with us? Even if they do, how we we prevent a repeat of 1971?

 

[jamahir]

Ok this one is for @jamahir but I will try to answer your question without disclosing names.

Today is a slow day for me. Allow me to reply to this post of yours and the one in the economic proposal thread at a leisurely pace.

This is common knowledge amongst Indian Marxists of the earlier generation one whom I had the privy to meet when he was in his 90s almost 12 years back .
I subsequently confirmed the situation from one of our own expat leftists also aged 90+ .

One of the junior Indian Muslim members ( "youthful rebel") who was present at that meeting only as an observer told me

You certainly move in colorful circles.

that any conversations they were trying to have with their Pakistani counterparts was strictly monitored by Urdu speaking Uzbek communist KGB cadres.

Interesting.

 

[Baibars_1260]

In it's purest form, a Muslim superstate ruled by a Spirtual-ruler/Sultan/Amir. I personally believe that this is not possible because the Muslim world is too large and too culturally diverse to be ruled by single ruler or form of government. That is why I believe in more of a EU style union than a super-state

Correct. This is not the era of Emirs, Sultans, and Spiritual heads ruling a single diverse country, far less separate countries.
An EU style organization is feasible with the position of a secretary alternately rotating among the countries for a fixed duration. In fact this is exactly what was done by the Iran, Pakistan and Turkey when they founded the RCD or Regional Cooperation for Development.

Regional Cooperation for Development - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The RCD was economic, not political, or military in nature but could well have grown into one comprehensive alliance . This was the closest Muslim countries ever came to doing what was right for their peoples . A secular modern alliance is needed , not a medieval Caliphate which failed in 1918.

This question can be answered in many ways but I will go with the same reason you want an expanded Pakistani federation.

A secular economic and military alliance of Muslim countries with common internal political structures and judicial laws would be a great step We would have to get rid of monarchies and establish representative governments otherwise the alliance will come apart on the whims of one or two tin pot Sultans . We have seen what happened to the Arab League snd GCC . Even the GCC a subset of the defunct Arab League has Qatar and Dubai fighting each other.
A Pakistani Federation is more feasible, with non-tribal representative democratic governments

But the Pakistan resolution was written with Muslim majority British-Indian territories in mind. Absorbing Afghanistan or Central Asian states was never on the cards then.

Correct, and that was the flaw in the original resolution, leaving Afghanistan out, when that country had a vital stake in the borders and people that constitute Pakistan . Afghanistan had been part of India for centuries. It was the rotten teetering Sikh Empire and later the British that put down the Durand line simply because they couldn't control the region. Afghans are blood brothers of Pakistan. Excluding them from the Pakistan resolution and ultimately in the demarcation of the region was a criminal oversight.
We ignored Afghanistan because of our stupid South Asian racial bias preferring the swamp of our so-called eastern wing over our natural and far more important ally .

Which is why Afghanistan was the only country that refused to recognize Pakistan when it was formed.

Having said that it will take a lot persuation on Pakitan's part to spearhead the formation of this federation of yours. Unless we have some rare natural resources, some ground-breaking technology, unlimited wealth or some unique expertise, how do you think we will be able to convince these counteries to form a union with us? Even if they do, how we we prevent a repeat of 1971?

These are two separate issues.
I am not advocating Pakistan bankrupts itself trying to lead an Ummah. This can be taken up
shortly after Pakistan has stabilized itself economically and the threat from our most dangerous enemy has been mitigated. As a seed the RCD can be revived in the near future.

A federation with Afghanistan is vitally important for our friendship with that nation. Afghanistan is landlocked and needs a port to export its considerable natural wealth such as rare earth minerals and Lithium so vital for today's rapidly changing transportation sector. Likewise Afghanistan can give Pakistan the access it needs to Central Asia and its gas and oil resources. Neglecting, Afghanistan, lampooning Pathans and Afghans and bottling up that nation are most horrible acts of treachery to our national interest.

There will never be a 1971 again precisely because of a federation and the fact that there are no significant linguistic and cultural differences amongst our peoples and we are generally comfortable with each other on that front. Our eastern wing was a geographical, cultural.and linguistic nightmare and logistically indefensible . Our enemy took full advantage of this.
We should have kicked that swamp out of our union in 1947 itself. A fake Ummah brotherhood cost us dearly but thankfully that region is no longer with us to drag us down.

The Ummah is not so important as the survival of Pakistan. Pakistan First !
@PAKISTANFOREVER

 

[X-ray Papa]

A fake Ummah brotherhood cost us dearly but thankfully that region is no longer with us to drag us down.

Thank God for that.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Today is a slow day for me. Allow me to reply to this post of yours and the one in the economic proposal thread at a leisurely pace.
You certainly move in colorful circles.
Interesting.

Yes, interesting. Refer to Bheesham Sahni's novel Tamas where he relates the agony of the Communist Party of India cadres in Partition era Punjab trying to protect each other from communal mayhem.

We only know the tip of the iceberg as related by left wing writers.poets, celebrities like Faiz, Manto, Bheesham Sahni, etc.

These were on the fringes of the movement to stall the communal mayhem to stall Partition somehow, and many communists died in communal violence at the hands of their own co-religionists trying to protect respective minorities.

This is not unusual. During the Russian Civil War in 1920, communists died in huge numbers trying to stall massacres of Jews and Muslims by White Russian militias.

 

[313ghazi]

Unpopular opinion - I think this nonsense.

Why does it always feel you guys are trying too hard to create an uber sense of national identity.

If tomorrow I declared we are all Pdfstanis and declared a load of reasons which makes us Pdfstanis - what actually changes?

Some of you will still identify by your religion, ethnicity, political identity - whatever.

If Pakistanis spent half the time spent building a national identity in actual nation building we might eventually have something to forge an identity around.

On the most part what do any of us contribute to Pakistan selflessly? I don't think I've ever even picked up someone elses trash with the intention that I am cleaning my country. We're all talk.

Stop trying to manufacture an identity. Manufacture a nation and sense of belonging will come with it.

 

[peagle]

Sometimes the full truth is never known and sometimes it is known long after :
Example: ( Link )
It is unfortunate that I cannot name the persons involved. The children of the participants of this Stalinist era intrigue (on both sides of India and Pakistan ) are very respectable and renowned families , who would much rather live in anonymous seclusion . Most are living abroad and their parents are dead.

A visit to the CPI/ CPM headquarters in India, and their library will reveal who the person's involved were. A professional investigative journalist should take this story up as an assignment, though it is unlikely that the CPI will take kindly to the revelations 73 years later after some its brightest and most adventurous cadres have passed away. These political parties would like to protect the descendants of their most intrepid and dedicated members ; especially the Muslims in this era of RSS dominated politics in India.
The legacy Aligarh University "Surkhey" crowd is now very old and decrepit, and even the second tier are moving into their eternal rest.
Our security apparatus has all the files and data, but given Pakistan's desire to keep relations with Russia on an even keel as of now, it is highly unlikely that the names of the Indian Muslim leftists who transited Pakistan into the Soviet Union will be revealed. Pakistan's concerns were with the CPP only which it dismantled very quickly.
Am not going to name persons here. The Indians can do what they want.


I confess that not every thing can be referenced and revealed here. Two persons in their 90s not afraid of the consequences are likely telling the truth especially since they are not connected. But do I have Google links to prove what they said is correct? Of course not!
Just as we will never know the full details of Pakistan's involvement in the Anti Soviet Afghan war in our lifetime, we will likely never know the murky details of what went on in those days.

The overall picture adds up, The Soviets were backing the united CPI before it split into the CPP . Briefly the Soviets had hopes from the CPP, and then gave up after Pakistani intelligence dismantled the apparatus. No one remembers Jam Saqi these days. Faiz's case is well known.,

I am sure the Soviet Embassy records have long been revealed to the powers that be.

Gin and tonic with Angastura bitters. Cheers.

I for one are so glad we did not pick the Soviet camp, communism is only for the dreamers, nothing more nothing less.

In our illusion of choice, we seem to forget Pakistan was a poor weak country, we made choices given the circumstances, as everyone does, despite the multiple American backstabbings, I think overall we have made good choices. A fair analysis of our history proves it so.
We just love crying about ourselves all the time, the world is good and perfect and we are so bad, it's a pitiful attitude, devoid of intellectual reasoning.

Hey I'm sure you've changed your drink unless it's very much mood dependant lol

 

[jamahir]

We only know the tip of the iceberg as related by left wing writers.poets, celebrities like Faiz, Manto, Bheesham Sahni, etc.

Even Bhisham's brother, the actor Balraj Sahni, was a leftist. Below is from the recollections of Balraj's son, the actor Parikshat Sahni. An incident in Kashmir :

Two pony owners, for some unknown reason, were fighting, lashing out at one another with their whips. I was unnerved at this sight. It looked like these two were hell bent on killing one another. Their faces and arms were lacerated and were bleeding profusely. There was no one around; Dad walked up to them and tried to pacify them, but they paid no heed to him. He implored them to stop and listen to him, but they were in a towering rage and kept whipping one another mercilessly.

In their frenzy, one whiplash accidentally landed on Dad and tore his shirt sleeve, leaving an ugly mark on his forearm. Finding that the two were implacable, Dad backed off. He looked very sad as he stared at them for a while, oblivious of his own pain. ‘Come,’ Dad said to me and we walked off. He was quiet for a while, paying little attention to the whiplash he had received on his forearm. He was pensive and sounded dismal when he finally spoke, ‘I am sure the cause of this fight must be quite trivial. This is what poverty does to people. The sad part is that they are ignorant of the root cause of their troubles—exploitation! They have not yet guessed the reason for their poverty and understood who is responsible for it. That is capitalism for you! The poverty-stricken working classes in India are blissfully unaware of the reason why they are starving. The Hindus blame it on karma and their actions in their past lives. These poor fellows are illiterate and have never given a thought to who is exploiting them. They are not aware that just across those mountains lies the Soviet Union, where poverty and exploitation have ceased to exist; where there is equality and justice. When will there be a revolution in India?’

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

You need to read what I said before making generalizations around what I am saying. Let me know if you need further explanation around my points:
1) This is a group of sold out people
2) We should not run away from our Islamic identity
3) This group is inline with Kharjites

The fact is un-disputed that useful idiots in the religious class of Pakistan get directly or indirectly used to hurt muslim and Pakistani interest needs no explanation. Also most people in religious parties are good people, but it does not take much to rally people's emotion in these topics. Get a few key leaders on your payroll and you control the movement (that is how it has always been done).

You are making takfir on people because they have a different concept of politics and religion that you? Wow...

What groups are you referring to in specific? If it is a certain religious party name it.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

You are making takfir on people because they have a different concept of politics and religion that you? Wow...

What groups are you referring to in specific? If it is a certain religious party name it.

No I am not. Why do you keep presupposing what I am saying.

Anyone who causes fitna between muslims, anyone who believes he is more muslim than another, anyone who directly or indirectly through alliance monetary or otherwise fights (take up arms, not critique (which should be legitimate)) against the government or her armed forces, anyone on a foreign payroll directly or indirectly - these are the folks I am highlighting.

And btw this group includes non religious people as well. This is not an exclusive domain of religious parties. My original post made was to make a point that "if only we knew how corrupt and sold out some of the so-called members/organizers of religious parties are", we would be in shock. And some of these parties are main-stream religious parties as well.

This is the third post to explain what I am attempting to say. Hopefully third time is the charm.

 

[Baibars_1260]

No I am not. Why do you keep presupposing what I am saying.

Anyone who causes fitna between muslims, anyone who believes he is more muslim than another, anyone who directly or indirectly through alliance monetary or otherwise fights (take up arms, not critique (which should be legitimate)) against the government or her armed forces, anyone on a foreign payroll directly or indirectly - these are the folks I am highlighting.

And btw this group includes non religious people as well. This is not an exclusive domain of religious parties. My original post made was to make a point that "if only we knew how corrupt and sold out some of the so-called members/organizers of religious parties are", we would be in shock. And some of these parties are main-stream religious parties as well.

This is the third post to explain what I am attempting to say. Hopefully third time is the charm.

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan
Gentlemen,
By derailing the topic you will cause the mods to lock an otherwise interesting thread. Please do let others have the opportunity to discuss Pakistani identity with regard to history, ethnic origin, geography and political status.
We can discuss religious aspects of takfir and fitna on a separate thread.
Our national identity and national pride has been brutally pummeled by motivated groups. We are only playing into the hands of the enemy.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Anyone who causes fitna between muslims, anyone who believes he is more muslim than another,

According to you the very idea of Pakistan is fitna. This is a geographic limited state that prevents Muslims from gaining right to live within it but is happy to place Christians, Hindus etc within it's boundaries as citizens and thus elevates them above other Muslims of the Ummah.

 

[ThunderCat]

What is this supposed to mean? Are the Germans "meaningfully different" from Germans? Are Yanks meaningfully different from Canadians? Are Poles meaningfully different from Russians etc

@AgnosticIndian

If you're referring to the historic India then I agree.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan
Gentlemen,
By derailing the topic you will cause the mods to lock an otherwise interesting thread. Please do let others have the opportunity to discuss Pakistani identity with regard to history, ethnic origin, geography and political status.
We can discuss religious aspects of takfir and fitna on a separate thread.
Our national identity and national pride has been brutally pummeled by motivated groups. We are only playing into the hands of the enemy.

Generally the religious majority of Pakistan is from where the military recruits from. Therefore there is no case to be made for espousing nationalism which excludes religious Pakistanis.