Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[ejaz007]

US Senate urged to help upgrade Pakistan’s F-16s
By Our Correspondent

WASHINGTON, Oct 14: The US administration on Tuesday held a special briefing to persuade Senate to help finance mid-life upgrading of Pakistan’s ageing fleet of F-16 aircraft.

US Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher, who looks after South Asian affairs at the State Department, said that upgrading the F-16s would increase Pakistan’s effectiveness in the war against terror.

Pakistan has a total of 34 F-16s purchased mostly in the 1980s.

The US government has already accepted Pakistan’s request to upgrade the aircraft, equipping them with modern technology and weapon systems to make them compatible with newer versions of the F-16s. The mid-life upgrading will cost a total of $891 million. Pakistan agreed to pay $417 million and asked the United States to provide $474 million.

In July this year, the US State Department notified the committee that it had accepted Pakistan’s request to make available $226 million from the foreign military finance programme for upgrading the F-16s.

Initially, Pakistan had agreed to bear most of the cost but under the new arrangement the United States will provide almost half of the money needed. The State Department said the move was aimed at helping “a strong ally” faced with a difficult financial situation.

Initially, Pakistan had also planned to buy 36 aircraft at a cost of $5.1 billion but after the 2005 earthquake, it reduced its order to 18 aircraft.

The United States is already providing $224 million but needs Congress’s permission for the remaining $250 million.

Pakistan received additional 14 F-16 A and B models under an arrangement that allowed US allies to receive excessive defence articles. The US has designated Pakistan a major non-Nato ally, a category that allows the allied nation to receive excessive defence equipment.

The White House has rejected criticism that Pakistan could only use the F-16s against its nuclear neighbour India and not against the terrorists.

“The F-16s that they have are used in counter-terrorism operations. We made them available to the Pakistanis and they need to be maintained,” White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

Administration officials have told the Senate that upgrading Pakistan’s ageing fleet of F-16 aircraft will dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties in Fata.

US Senate urged to help upgrade Pakistan’s F-16s -DAWN - Top Stories; October 15, 2008

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Turkey to help with F-16 overhauls

Naveed Miraj

ISLAMABAD: Turkey has agreed to provide expertise to Pakistan for overhauling F-16 fighter jets and an agreement in this regard has been signed in Ankara during Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gillani's visit.

Turkey that has got license to produce these fighter aircraft has agreed to assist Pakistan in building a setup to overhaul these aircraft purchased from the United States at Kamra Aeronautical Complex. This facility would go a long way in improving the country's air defence capability and Pakistan would come in a position to overhaul its F-16 fleet like Miraj and F-7. Moreover, it will be able to bring in action its obsolete F-16 aircraft that could not be overhauled due to a lack of this facility in Pakistan. Earlier Pakistan could not afford to send the fighter jets to the United States for overhauls at a very high cost.

Due to lack of maintenance and overhauls of these costly and most modern fighters Pakistan had ground a number of its aircraft. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received eighteen overhauled and refurbished F-16 from USA by this year under the EAD programme.

 

[Nishan_101]

salam, do u beleive that f-16 blk-52's should be cancelled by again taking eartquake as an excuse as well as our very good growin economy which is going 2 be collapsed and put the money if left in EDA in getin blk-15's whic will be avialable by 2011 n also from third parties & bargain chip ;
Like e.g:Egypt as blk-15's with MLU-3 as well as blk-30 & 40's we should get itby letin them 2 buy some ex-us blk -30's &40's which they had offered 2 us so they will 2 ave just 2 type of blk(30's&40's) and PAF will have only one type F-16 BLK-15

 

[TOPGUN]

We should try to get blk 52's going back to the stone age is not gona help us at all we are trying to come out of that era.

 

[z9-ec]

Lockheed to supply F-16, C-130, P 3 Orion to Pakistan

KARACHI, Nov 26 (APP) - Lockheed Martin, USA will supply upgraded F-16 jets, C-130 transport planes and P 3 Orion surveillance aircraft to Pakistan armed forces. This was stated by President Lockheed Martin, Middle East and Africa, Gen (rtd) James Jamerson in an interview here Wednesday.

To a question, he said that he had meetings with top officials of Ministry of Defence, Chief of Naval Staff and Air Chief of Pakistan Air Force.

“I have discussed with the Naval Chief the Orion aircraft up-gradation project,” he said mentioning that Orion aircraft were being upgraded for Pakistan Navy in the United States and they will soon come to Pakistan.

Regarding the supply of F-16 jets, he said that these fighters were upgraded and overhauled in Pakistan as well as in USA.

“We are also supplying equipment and parts to Pakistan for F-16s overhauled in Pakistan. Similarly, we are also upgrading F-16s in USA for supply to Pakistan,” said the Lockheed Martin President.

James said that his company was also upgrading a number of C-130 for Pakistan Air Force in USA.

He did not mention the exact number of these jets and aircraft saying the number was significant.

 

[Munir]

It is indeed a new fact that F16's are upgraded in Pak (with help from Turkey). But would someone still believe we would transit these planes over a period of 5 years?

Those planes if the US are test models and if parts fit then same is done in Pakistan. They are upgrade a lot faster in Pak then in USA.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

I would suggest to PAF and GoP to not procure F-16 Blk 52 and stick with FC-20 and take a look at J-11B. Our Thunder will progress slowly and by 2013 or so it will have AESA and fitted with new engines possibly some stealth characteristics, conformal fuel tanks and up to 11 hard points.

After the upgrade, let's let F-16 purchase become a thing of the past. We can even work on upgrading F-16's in our inventory completely in house so to speak. The cost is too much for the block 52 deal, the planes are too few, the delivery is too long and the strings are still attached while the spare parts are going to be a problem I think.

 

[TOPGUN]

I would suggest to PAF and GoP to not procure F-16 Blk 52 and stick with FC-20 and take a look at J-11B. Our Thunder will progress slowly and by 2013 or so it will have AESA and fitted with new engines possibly some stealth characteristics, conformal fuel tanks and up to 11 hard points.

After the upgrade, let's let F-16 purchase become a thing of the past. We can even work on upgrading F-16's in our inventory completely in house so to speak. The cost is too much for the block 52 deal, the planes are too few, the delivery is too long and the strings are still attached while the spare parts are going to be a problem I think.

Actually Kharian_beast i agree with u to some degree my thought is to get the upgrades on the old ones & get the 18 new block 52 and then move on with the renaming thought on j-10's and perhaps look in to j-11's again no answer or conform news is on the interest from our side on j-11 so lets see wat the future holds iam sure the PAF high staff knows wat they are doing !! futhermore, mashallah jf-17 is on track so no worry there .

 

[Arsalan]

I would suggest to PAF and GoP to not procure F-16 Blk 52 and stick with FC-20 and take a look at J-11B. Our Thunder will progress slowly and by 2013 or so it will have AESA and fitted with new engines possibly some stealth characteristics, conformal fuel tanks and up to 11 hard points.

After the upgrade, let's let F-16 purchase become a thing of the past. We can even work on upgrading F-16's in our inventory completely in house so to speak. The cost is too much for the block 52 deal, the planes are too few, the delivery is too long and the strings are still attached while the spare parts are going to be a problem I think

actually i totally agree with you, its not only about high cost but also the reliability of the deal as to be sure that we do get these planes in the right time which does not seem to be happening with most of Pak-US deals!

i think the deal of upgrading the current fleet and procuring new plane have already suffered two delays and there is no point in totally relying on this deal!
if we get them in time its good,,, but there comes the big IF so we better weight our options like the J10 or even J11 or there newer version that can be somewhat on par with the Su30z

 

[Arsalan]

what are the details of the upgradation plans!!

i mean we are going for MLUz from Us and also some plans are going on with the Turkish firm so what is the difference between these two!

 

[Arsalan]

J-11J-11
A 4.5-generation J-11B prototype flying
Role Multirole Air Superiority Fighter
Manufacturer Shenyang Aircraft Corporation
Designed by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (J-11B is Chinese-designed)
First flight 1998
Introduced 1998
Status Active service
Primary user People's Liberation Army Air Force
Produced 1998-Present
Number built ≈100
Developed from Sukhoi Su-27SK


J-11 b/c is a marked improvement done by the chinese


Comparable aircraft

* F-15 Eagle
* Sukhoi Su-30MKI
* Eurofighter Typhoon

 

[echo 1]

The only thing is that Russia would intervine. This is their aircraft (Su-27) and they have already threated to sue if China did sell these aircrafts to Pakistan. That is my only consurn. Also It has a huge radar signature. The Indian Su-30MKIs were deticted very quickly because they are so big what would we do about that? Also if we did get just the J-10 we need to do a lot of upgrades of our own to meet our needs dont you guys think.

 

[Arsalan]

The only thing is that Russia would intervine. This is their aircraft (Su-27) and they have already threated to sue if China did sell these aircrafts to Pakistan. That is my only consurn. Also It has a huge radar signature. The Indian Su-30MKIs were deticted very quickly because they are so big what would we do about that? Also if we did get just the J-10 we need to do a lot of upgrades of our own to meet our needs dont you guys think.

yes but the relation between pakistan and russia are getting better, russia cannot afford to lose chines market and we together with the chines offer double the scope of trade that india offers! i had these figures with me but cannot find them at the moment but i will post them as i find them again, but the thing was that totall potential russian exports to china and pakistan was more than two times the potential of India. so if china support us in this venture it wonmt be difficult.

 

[Arsalan]

the J-11B is an improved version of J11 or the SU27!
it have better stealth features making it 4.5 generation plane better than the 4 generation su27!!

This is the 4.5-generation multirole version which uses more Chinese components, including radar, engine, and missiles. China is interested in reducing its reliance on foreign technology for both cost reasons and a desire to improve its domestic research and design. It is reported that one regiment of J-11Bs are currently in service, but this seems to contradict with the latest information provided by the Chinese government: In May, 2007, the existence of J-11B was finally acknowledged by the Chinese government for the first time when the state-run Chinese TV stations first aired the report on J-11B in PLAAF service, which were subsequently publicized in various domestic Chinese media such as state-run websites and newspapers (like Xin Wen Hua Bao, New Culture Newspaper). However, the official Chinese report claims that there are only two squadrons of J-11Bs in service, instead of a regiment, which is consisted of three squadrons (as of end of 2007). According to the Chinese report, which is agreed by some western sources such as Jane's Information Group, the J-11B is superior to Su-27SK in the following areas:

The wide adoption of composite material (mainly carbon fiber) for the surfaces, reducing the weight of the aircraft for more than 700 kg, while the life of the composite part is increased over 10,000 hours in comparison to the original part built from steel.
Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >3 square meters of F-16 A/B.
Full air-to-surface / sea capability is added and J-11B is able to launch various precision guided air-to-surface and air-to-sea munitions.
Certified to be equipped with WS-10 (will be upgraded to WS-10A in the future) turbofan engine, which is claimed to be cheaper to operate than AL-31F.
Incorporation of on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS): With the exception of Su-35 and Su-37, J-11B is the first of the Flanker family to incoporate such technology. Due to the adoptation of western style design features such as fully digitized computerized controls and solid state micro-electronics, Chinese claimed that the domestic OBOGS is superior than the analog system Russia offered to China.
Improved radar. The new radar is able to track 6-8 targets at the same time, and engage 4 of the 6-8 tracked simultaneously. When used against large surface target such as a destroyer, the maximum range of the radar was in excess of 350 km. The range against aerial targets was not disclosed, but it would be definitely much shorter, as in all radars. The Chinese official report claims that the radar is better than the 147x/KLJ-X radar family, but stop short of identifying the exact type. Contrary to many erroneous comments by many domestic Chinese sources, which mistakenly claimed that the radar had adopted a passive phased array antenna, the official claims of many Chinese governmental sources such as technical journals and publications have revealed that the radar still adopted a slotted plannar array antenna.
Fully digitized solid-state avionics has replaced the analogue one in Su-27SK. In the mid-2007, the Chinese governmental television station CCTV-7 released news clips of Chinese pilots in the cockpits of J-11B, with the LCD of glass cockpit of J-11B clearly visible, despite that the official report itself only claimed replacing the original avionics with domestic Chinese fully digitized solid-state avionics, and nothing of EFIS or glass cockpit was mentioned. In comparison to the earlier EFIS on J-11A, the most obvious difference is that LCD MFDs on J-11B are aligned in a straight line, instead of the middle one being slightly lower. The arrangement, appearance and layout of MFDs and EFIS of J-11B are similar to the general design concept of the west.
Missile Approach Warning Systen
Though it has long been rumored that J-11B is aerial-refueling capable, it was impossible to determine if any aerial refueling probes have been added to the aircraft from the released official reports by the Chinese government. Professor Wang also revealed in the same interview that the J-11B entering series production would be equipped with domestic engines.

 

[RS4]

Something to bear in mind is that the PAF have a very strong history and experiance with F16s, the F16 is combat proven where as the JF17 and J10 are not. Also the Blk 52 are exspensive but would give the Paf a High tech muti role capability which is very much what the PAF is looking for.