Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[fatman17]

if we go by what has been said, then why do airforces practice WVR during multi-national excercises. then if western airforces like US, UK etc only practice 'hit and run' tactics or BVR, then the 'story' of PAF pilots besting their western counterparts (UK or Italian) in WVR must be true since PAF did not have the BVR capability until 2009-2010. now it needs to 'ramp-up' its BVR proficiency if WVR is almost extinct.

 

[MastanKhan]

Chogy,

If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.

 

[Silk]

Chogy,

If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.

Exactly. If you know exactly how the radar onboard works... You just make it go crazy. Without eyes the missile is a dumb thing. Even if you do not made the missile you just get the signal and react realtime with garbage. That is where ECM, ECCM and DRFM comes... It can read the signals, and before the plane is back to base, every other plane knows the signals to counter. The dual seekers IR might counter Flares but they still get crazy if you use lasers on them.

I like pilots cause they can tell you al lot more how it works in real world. Engineers tend to go theoretical. But one thing pilots forget is what you can do more cause if there is a system then there is something in the near future to counter it. The first planes were rec planes. Then bombers. Then fighters to counter the bombers. You had guns. Then someone thought that they only needed missiles. The gun was gone. Then the gun returned cause the missiles could be countered or would not work perfect. And maybe the IR missile is not electronically stoppable but his host still needs to track and come into Visual Range. And we can go on en on.

 

[Chogy]

If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.

There is a HUGE difference between EW (electronic warfare) and hypothesized secret codes that make a system go dumb. The former exists... the latter is mostly conspiracy stuff.

EW is getting very sophisticated. So is the counter, the hardened, encrypted, frequency-agile systems that are becoming necessary.

But there is no box in aircraft that you set to send some digital packet that will magically shut the enemy down. Engineers would have to be nuts to intentionally build a back door, an easter egg, into a system. Instead, they build their stuff to be as robust, as jam-proof, as possible.

I'd really rather not go in that direction. There are dozens of threads already on this over-hyped subject.

Maneuvering - it'll be practiced for decades to come. And it'll be irresponsible to say a matured turning fight will never happen again. But they are going to be very rare and should not be an emphasis item.

 

[babji]

if F16 with aim120 comes one to one with SU 30 MKI,what will be the scenario

sorry for going off the topic but will be thankful if someone give me the answer

F-16 will win . and stick on topic

 

[Luftwaffe]

Chogy,

If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.

Very technical question and a hard one maybe professionals in this field knows better.
About the so called secret Codes I was reading about Minuteman 3 when it suffered debilitating anomaly that forced flight controllers to terminate the rocket, was it not those specific command codes that terminated the rocket.

 

[untitled]

There may be a 6th gen optionally manned jet..

Not the gth gen , 7th gen may get a human pilot out of the cockpit, but as Santro mentioned, 6th gen is .....

Next-Generation Bomber or the 2018 bomber

Next-Generation Bomber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[babji]

SU-30mki have alot of disadvantages over F-16 like huge RCS, and as per pakistani bro's they are masters WVR fight, we can't compete with F-16 blk 15 or 52.

 

[Jango]

Next-Generation Bomber or the 2018 bomber

Next-Generation Bomber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

some points to be taken:

1- Looks very similar to B-2

2- Optionally manned for non- nuclear warheads.

3- Not intended as a step further than 5th gen, rather keeping the salient features of F-22/F-35 , but rather, the emphasis is on developing a LONG RANGE STRIKE FAMILY, to replace the outdated bombers currently in service.

4- To provide a fast platform for quick launch of offensive.

So, as i previously said, not really meant to be un manned in the true sense such as a Predator UCAV.

And lets keep on topic, shall we?

 

[soul hacker]

F-16 will win . and stick on topic

if you don't have a reason than just shut up or ready for get banned

 

[notorious_eagle]

if we go by what has been said, then why do airforces practice WVR during multi-national excercises. then if western airforces like US, UK etc only practice 'hit and run' tactics or BVR, then the 'story' of PAF pilots besting their western counterparts (UK or Italian) in WVR must be true since PAF did not have the BVR capability until 2009-2010. now it needs to 'ramp-up' its BVR proficiency if WVR is almost extinct.

For NATO YES, but NEVER for us.

When your enemy is right next door, its natural that majority of the battles will take place in WVR mode. For the IAF to implement their Cold Start Doctrine, the IAF will need to cross the border and engage the PAF in order to execute their war plans. They cannot just stay within their borders and try to take out our jets from stand off ranges. Our situation is similar to that of the IDAF, majority of their foes are right next door and that is why even to this day they effectively train their pilots for WVR battles.

PAF has had limited BVR capability for quite some time, they have been training in BVR engagements for almost a decade now. So they are not totally new to this concept, but obviously the introduction of the AIM120 and SD10B in large numbers is definitely a game changer for PAF. This allows them to accept the battle against the IAF from stand off ranges, that is something totally new that the IAF has to worry about. I fear that with the addition of all these BVR enabled planes, PAF will loose its edge in WVR arena a niche of which we are considered masters off. I certainly hope that PAF continues to train in both WVR and BVR A2A engagements.

 

[rockstarIN]

For NATO YES, but NEVER for us.

When your enemy is right next door, its natural that majority of the battles will take place in WVR mode.

notorious_eagle, You are still not getting the point, we are close to each other it does not mean that it can't be BVR, the question is, Why should I come close if I can aim and shoot from distance where you won't see me?.

Yes, the air bases are near. But it is not we take off and landed in PAK air space. Can roam around in the area, check the situation....swoop in...fire...revert to the earlier position... Thats what Chogy said, stealth, situational awarness and ECM is so important.

 

[gambit]

Chogy,

If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.

Let me try this analogy I used in a class a llllooooooooong time ago. Your eyes are sensors. To pull the proverbial wool over your eyes is analogous to electronic warfare (EW). That is to produce sensory overload from the outside. But what if you have cataracts or some other related medical conditions? That is analogous to 'hacking', meaning to affect the system from the inside by using and/or corrupting its own structures.

For a radar system, it can be 'spoofed', but it cannot be 'hacked' because the signals at the receiver side are not processed as instruction codes but only as information or data. The contents of the data packet can be deliberately misleading but it would actually require a decision maker -- the human -- to act and that would be from his own instruction codes.

Rockets that are destroyed by ground commands for some reasons do not accept instruction codes from anyone. It will verify any received signals to see if the source of those signals are legitimate. That mean you cannot 'hack' the missile but must 'hack' the issuer of those commands.

 

[notorious_eagle]

notorious_eagle, You are still not getting the point, we are close to each other it does not mean that it can't be BVR, the question is, Why should I come close if I can aim and shoot from distance where you won't see me?.

In order for you to achieve your objectives which the Indian War Planners have outlined, there is no alternative but to cross over the border and duel the skies with PAF. You have to enter my home if you want to execute your war plan, staying within your skies will be contrary to what the Indian War Plans are. If the IAF does manage to shoot down a PAF plane from stand off range, what objective does it achieve? We are not fighting a war of attrition here, what your suggesting is contrary to the Indian War Plans.

Yes, the air bases are near. But it is not we take off and landed in PAK air space. Can roam around in the area, check the situation....swoop in...fire...revert to the earlier position... Thats what Chogy said, stealth, situational awarness and ECM is so important.

No doubt; stealth, superior situational awareness and electronic warfare are very important assets in today's warfare. In our case neither side possess stealth aircrafts, PAKFA is no where near as low observable as the F22 is judging from its physical characteristics. Both sides field some excellent electronic warfare assets but their potency will only be revealed during wartime. Both sides have very extensive radar coverage, chances of a surprise strike are very low.

Both sides will see a strike package well before it even reaches the border, the introduction of AWACS is possibly the dumbest decision IAF has ever taken. Although PAF does possess excellent ground based radars, they have their limitations against low flying jets. The introduction of Airborne Radars cancels out that limitation, it will be extremely difficult for the IAF to conceal a strike package as our AWACS can look deep and down.

 

[babji]

if you don't have a reason than just shut up or ready for get banned

post reported, 1st respect others. ok. n i gave reply to ur question.