Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Quite insightful this!

There is a logical design limit to what extent JF can be upgraded or do all sorts of things... In my view opening up the JF design...say... enlarging it with hybrid requirements of Azm will provide an extremely valuable experience both in design and manufacturing... can, to some extent, work as a cheaper validated platform.... like not creating the perfect Azm aircraft from get-go... but building block by building block.... A Directed Evolution Model, perhaps!

Such an approach with also allow breathing room in building up both HumanCapital and Fabrication facilities as well...

Regardless, Azm is going to leverage many techs from partners... we won't do it alone!

I was thinking ... We keep the ambition of AZM in place, go at it as this super difficult project for the sake of building local expertise and industries. However, we pay AVIC for continued JF-17 work (in China), and get those to plug gaps until AZM is ready.

The risk with block-building AZM is that we could end up with a compromised design at the start, thus defeating the purpose of the project. I'd rather preserve the difficult top end specs for AZM, but buffer against the risk via an existing program.

 

[FuturePAF]

I didn't say it was based on the MiG-21 or F-7. I said the PAF started its whole fighter project by first looking at a major F-7/MiG-21 upgrade (Sabre II). This fell through, but CAC kept working on its own clean-sheet design, but this new design (FC-1/Super-7) was still within the confines of what the PAF wanted at that time.

The Block-III is really stretching what the frozen design (PT-4) is capable of, so anything more would mean re-opening the design. However, jury's out on whether the PAF is interested in it -- at least internally, it's focusing on AZM (for now). I do think it should put some money aside and have CAC re-open the JF-17 design though.

Do you think the JF-17 could be re-designed to incorporate the relaxed stability in other 4th generation platforms?

Considering the sensors and avionics we are incorporating into the Block 3, I couldn’t agree more that the design needs to be opened up again.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Do you think the JF-17 could be re-designed to incorporate the relaxed stability in other 4th generation platforms?

Considering the sensors and avionics we are incorporating into the Block 3, I couldn’t agree more that the design needs to be opened up again.

AVIC can re-open the design. It's a major investment though -- relaxing the stability could mean going all the way back to wind-tunnel tests, not to mention re-doing the integration, testing, etc of weapons.

The way I look at it, re-opening the design is akin to a new fighter entirely.

The PAF should think about 2 next-gen platforms: AZM (high-end, twin-engine) and a JF-17 NG (low-end, single-engine). The JF-17 NG could be a new fighter (sharing only the JF-17's name), but use AVIC's expertise from the J-10 and JF-17. Just a basic single-engine relaxed stability fighter with great maneuverability, space for a complete EW/ECM suite and AESA radar, low RCS, etc. You can sell it to AVIC as a next-gen LIFT.

The rationale is that if AZM gets delayed (which it will), you at least have a great new fighter to tap into for replacing old JF-17s in the 2020s and 2030s. But my idea is that use the stuff already available, don't reinvent the wheel.

So, tell AVIC to 'keep it simple' (again Lol). But I don't think it would cost anywhere near as much as AZM for AVIC to develop such a fighter. Everything for it is already in China: WS-13 or WS-19, fly-by-wire (from J-10C, Block-III), RCS reduction studies (J-20), and so on. They can do it, especially if the PAF keeps its nose out (to focus on AZM) and takes what it gets via AVIC. You can hand manufacturing to private sector entities as well.

 

[Falcon26]

I was thinking ... We keep the ambition of AZM in place, go at it as this super difficult project for the sake of building local expertise and industries. However, we pay AVIC for continued JF-17 work (in China), and get those to plug gaps until AZM is ready.

The risk with block-building AZM is that we could end up with a compromised design at the start, thus defeating the purpose of the project. I'd rather preserve the difficult top end specs for AZM, but buffer against the risk via an existing program.

If they were going to open the JF-17, they should have done so with Block III. Especially knowing the acquisitions in the pipeline for the IAF & the inability to obtain additional F-16s from Washington. That this hasn’t happened means PAF has to now focus wholeheartedly on the Project AZM. If there comes a time to plug technological gaps, it must happen through F-16s, I strongly believe that the appetite for providing Pakistan some sort of military weapons is now there. If that’s not possible, then acquire 2-3 squadrons of J-10CE which will provide delta for delta replacement for the mirages. PAF could then operate a fleet of JF-17, J-10CE & F-16 till Project AZM matures.

As you have said before, whatever additional funds exists must be used for the Project AZM and critical support systems, for example, refuelers, additional BVRs, EW systems and even AEWCs and air defense systems.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If they were going to open the JF-17, they should have done so with Block III. Especially knowing the acquisitions in the pipeline for the IAF & the inability to obtain additional F-16s from Washington. That this hasn’t happened means PAF has to now focus wholeheartedly on the Project AZM. If there comes a time to plug technological gaps, it must happen through F-16s, I strongly believe that the appetite for providing Pakistan some sort of military weapons is now there. If that’s not possible, then acquire 2-3 squadrons of J-10CE which will provide delta for delta replacement for the mirages. PAF could then operate a fleet of JF-17, J-10CE & F-16 till Project AZM matures.

As you have said before, whatever additional funds exists must be used for the Project AZM and critical support systems, for example, refuelers, additional BVRs, EW systems and even AEWCs and air defense systems.

Actually, now that you mention it, if the PAF wraps up the JF-17 after Block-3/B, then it can very well tap into the J-10CE-line as high-tech stopgaps ahead of AZM. But it wouldn't be as a pre-set acquisition, rather, only if there's cash (outside of AZM).

That cash could come by wrapping up the JF-17 (assuming a budget's there to transition PAC to AZM in the meantime). However, the PAF can't wrap up the JF-17 until at least 2025 -- it's still producing Block-3s. So, the stopgap question won't arise I think until 2030.

 

[anathema]

AVIC can re-open the design. It's a major investment though -- relaxing the stability could mean going all the way back to wind-tunnel tests, not to mention re-doing the integration, testing, etc of weapons.

The way I look at it, re-opening the design is akin to a new fighter entirely.

The PAF should think about 2 next-gen platforms: AZM (high-end, twin-engine) and a JF-17 NG (low-end, single-engine). The JF-17 NG could be a new fighter (sharing only the JF-17's name), but use AVIC's expertise from the J-10 and JF-17. Just a basic single-engine relaxed stability fighter with great maneuverability, space for a complete EW/ECM suite and AESA radar, low RCS, etc. You can sell it to AVIC as a next-gen LIFT.

The rationale is that if AZM gets delayed (which it will), you at least have a great new fighter to tap into for replacing old JF-17s in the 2020s and 2030s. But my idea is that use the stuff already available, don't reinvent the wheel.

So, tell AVIC to 'keep it simple' (again Lol). But I don't think it would cost anywhere near as much as AZM for AVIC to develop such a fighter. Everything for it is already in China: WS-13 or WS-19, fly-by-wire (from J-10C, Block-III), RCS reduction studies (J-20), and so on. They can do it, especially if the PAF keeps its nose out (to focus on AZM) and takes what it gets via AVIC. You can hand manufacturing to private sector entities as well.

Isnt JF17 basically a aerodynamically stable aircraft - atleast base design wise ? So what is this relaxing the stability mean ?

 

[Falcon26]

Actually, now that you mention it, if the PAF wraps up the JF-17 after Block-3/B, then it can very well tap into the J-10CE-line as high-tech stopgaps ahead of AZM. But it wouldn't be as a pre-set acquisition, rather, only if there's cash (outside of AZM).

That cash could come by wrapping up the JF-17 (assuming a budget's there to transition PAC to AZM in the meantime). However, the PAF can't wrap up the JF-17 until at least 2025 -- it's still producing Block-3s. So, the stopgap question won't arise I think until 2030.

Agreed! And this talk of acquiring additional Mirages suggests that PAF isn’t interested in retiring the mirages anytime soon.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Is this a CGI?
A

Bhai.
Look at our limitations. A nascent aviation industry producijg its first ever joint venture with no prior experience. People learning on the job and making compromises as the right technology is either not available or too expensive or not liked by the other partner for various reasons. Then you start comparing it with a platform which is a produce of 100 years of cumulative experience, a turnkey product which defined a whole new generation of fighter jets and which is like a very graceful lady who is ageless and timeless. There is no comparison.
Having said that flip the other side of the coin and see where you have reached since 2007-8. Where has the platform gone from the 1st protoype to block 3. Looking at our constraints and the restrictions of various kind put on us we have produced nothing short of a miracle with the help of our Iron brothers. Long live Pak China friendship.
A

Sir we are riding the backs of Chinese.

 

[Tipu7]

I was thinking ... We keep the ambition of AZM in place, go at it as this super difficult project for the sake of building local expertise and industries. However, we pay AVIC for continued JF-17 work (in China), and get those to plug gaps until AZM is ready.

The risk with block-building AZM is that we could end up with a compromised design at the start, thus defeating the purpose of the project. I'd rather preserve the difficult top end specs for AZM, but buffer against the risk via an existing program.

I fail to disagree with you!

In fact I tried to say the very same only in different manner. I am of the view that ThunderEvolution must continue...and there needs to be a plane between Thunder and Azm which will sort out a lot of things for us.

A la Gripen NG enlargement with bigger/better powerplant and some design changes shall give our desingers and engineers enough to up their game..with help of the Chinese ...afterall it is a partnership...

This approach will be more Directed Evolution and would have shorter life span than Clean Sheet Design....

Without compromising on the ASR we can have a F sola class fighter which we already have infrastructure, too large extent, and can easily absorb both the produciton and induction....

I do entertain the idea of complete inhouse production not too far in the future because that would be the true foundation of the next step ....Azm

We can start also from under licene production of turbines/aero-engine... something good to get our hands dirty upon... so many application...goes without saying!

I asked the same question from PAF Top official, that isn't it too much ambitious for Pakistan to directly jump from a basic 4th Gen project to a 5+ Gen project?

The answer was that provided the funds are there and we maintain a consistent R&D, then yes, the next generation aircraft will come after Thunder. Delays can be there, but eventually it will come. And we will also work with our allies regarding this project. (He didn't comment on the depth of relationship between TFX and NGFA)

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I asked the same question from PAF Top official, that isn't it too much ambitious for Pakistan to directly jump from a basic 4th Gen project to a 5+ Gen project?

The answer was that provided the funds are there and we maintain a consistent R&D, then yes, the next generation aircraft will come after Thunder. Delays can be there, but eventually it will come. And we will also work with our allies regarding this project. (He didn't comment on the depth of relationship between TFX and NGFA)

Unless they stretch Block-3/JF-17B production, this means, once the JF-17 is wrapped up, all of the facilities and people in that program will rollover to AZM.

 

[Tipu7]

Unless they stretch Block-3/JF-17B production, this means, once the JF-17 is wrapped up, all of the facilities and people in that program will rollover to AZM.

I believe PAF has plans to develop advance blocks of Jf17 (possibly dedicated versions) after Blk3.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Tipu7

Brothers mine,

Why do we overlook the fact that even the great Thunder would require replacesment in a decade and half...the earlier Sqd...

My sense is that the production run will continue.... and if we add on some export orders as well... so a decade long run cann't be overruled...

Also, Azm will not be our entire fleet nor would F sola be here forever... so we need solutions for longer term... as we gain more maturity in design and fabrication... things will become easier a little.

Hi,

The JF17 will need to be upgraded to a 25% larger size---the supposedly original design---.

 

[StormBreaker]

Hi,

The JF17 will need to be upgraded to a 25% larger size---the supposedly original design---.

I take it you are being sarcastic here, aren’t you

Last time, I saw you being less forgiving to some member who outright said “isko 25% enlarge kardo” jaise aviation to mazak ka khel hai

 

[Nomad40]

Hi,

The JF17 will need to be upgraded to a 25% larger size---the supposedly original design---.

You do realize that this will kill the whole idea Behind the JFT-------Not mentioning the aerodynamic performance and Engine + We already have a 25 % larger fighter.

 

[araz]

I believe PAF has plans to develop advance blocks of Jf17 (possibly dedicated versions) after Blk3.

Seems the most logical path to take. We need an NGF prior to 5th generation fighter.
A