Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Wingman]

My understanding is that the new Vipers will be based in Jacobabad which is in Sindh.

You are 100% correct, new vipers will be based in Jacobabad.

 

[was]

 

[SBD-3]

Congress technically has 30 days to veto the $5.1bn arms deal with Islamabad but it has never exercised that power on a major arms sale yet.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s - $3 billion

The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:

* 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
* 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
* 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
* 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
* 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
* 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range;
* 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems;
* 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
* 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
* 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM;
* 1 Unit Level Trainer;


Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.

The principal contractors will be:

* Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX;
* Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX;
* BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY;
* Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA;
* Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA;
* Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA;
* Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ;
* Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX;
* Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD;
* United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
* General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft.


Item 2: Weapons for F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft - $650 Million

# The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
# 12 AMRAAM training missiles
# these have seeker warheads, but lack engines;
# 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X;
# 240 LAU-129/A Launchers
# these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles;
# 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
# 1600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
# 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs;
# 700 BLU-109 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse; and,
# Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares, and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications, and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million.

The principal contractors will be:

* BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
* Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
* Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
* Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
* Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft.


Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits - $1.3 billion

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

* APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
* Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
* AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
* AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
* Have Quick I/II Radios;
* Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
* SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
* Reconnaissance pod capability;
* Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);


MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;

* 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
* 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
* 1 Unit Level Trainer;
* 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.


Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.

The estimated cost is $1.3 billion.

According to the DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment "to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan's F-16A/B squadron to operate safely and enhance Pakistan's conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan's air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft."

The principal contractors will be:

* BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
* Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
* Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
* Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
* Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD.



Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR - $151 Million

The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

* 14 F100-PW-220E engines;
* 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits;
* De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;
* Support equipment;
* Software development/integration;
* Modification kits;
* Spares, and repair parts;
* Flight test instrumentation;
* Publications and technical documentation;
* Personnel training and training equipment;
* U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.


The principal contractors will be:

* Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX; and,
* United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.



Potential Controversies

The DSCA has said that "Release of this system would not significantly reduce India's quantitative or qualitative military advantage". India disagrees and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan's "lawless frontier" could also be used in precision strikes on India's military facilities in the event of war.

The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan "will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region". India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 "AMRAAMski" missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistan's F-16s and will remain so. Meanwhile, India's $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.

The U.S. DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that "The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16s that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT." The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATO's ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistan's role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.

India's objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-U.S. ties. Meanwhile, President Bush's personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favourably as part of the U.S.A.'s 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, it's reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.

Courtesy of Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA)

 

[truepakistani17]

thanks a lot sir je, it really wa a real informative post. although all these points have been discussed seprately but getting them in one single post is really helpfull.
can you please provide us with the source of this repost. also it is mentioned in
item 4:
De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;
does it means that we are wisely going to modify our fleet of 42 old planes and get out of them 26 planes with enhanced performance.
also sir it states that PAF wil be getting 14 STAR upgrades kits and 14 engines for this upgrade so what about rest of the planes??

looking forward to your reply or if any other senior can kindly clarify.
thanks!

 

[SBD-3]

thanks a lot sir je, it really wa a real informative post. although all these points have been discussed seprately but getting them in one single post is really helpfull.
can you please provide us with the source of this repost. also it is mentioned in
item 4:
De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;
does it means that we are wisely going to modify our fleet of 42 old planes and get out of them 26 planes with enhanced performance.
also sir it states that PAF wil be getting 14 STAR upgrades kits and 14 engines for this upgrade so what about rest of the planes??

looking forward to your reply or if any other senior can kindly clarify.
thanks!

its from www.f-16.net

 

[TOPGUN]

Where did the # 36 f-16's come from? i thought we are buying 18 with a option of 18 more! 18x2= 36 as we have heard 18 are being puchased.

 

[owais.usmani]

Used USAF F-16s provide cheap multirole option​

ANALYSIS

Date Posted: 21-Jul-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly

Used USAF F-16s provide cheap multirole option

Older F-16 fighters slated for retirement by the USAF offer a desirable solution to cash-strapped governments and armed forces, as Jim Dorschner reports

Recently announced plans by the US Air Force (USAF) to retire older F-16 Fighting Falcon multirole fighter aircraft will prove advantageous for several lower-tier air forces with long-standing requirements that are otherwise unlikely to be addressed in the face of today's tough economic conditions.

The Combat Air Forces restructuring plan unveiled in early May by USAF Secretary Michael Donley calls for the retirement of 134 mostly Block 25 F-16s as part of a comprehensive plan to save some USD3.5 billion over the next five fiscal years. This money can then be redirected towards reducing current capability gaps - by expanding MQ-1 Predator and MQ-9 Reaper unmanned aerial vehicle capability and building the MC-12 Project Liberty manned intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance platform, for example.

Although more than 20 years old, many of the F-16C/Ds identified for retirement have plenty of life left in them, particularly if overhauled with modern sensors, communications and weapons. Countries destined to receive these 'new' fighters under generous terms from the US would need to be reliable allies. Potential recipients include Bulgaria, Colombia, Croatia, Indonesia, Iraq, Mexico, Pakistan, the Philippines, Romania and Tunisia.

Even before these latest retirements were announced, Romania and Bulgaria had already received offers of second-hand F-16s. The US offered Bulgaria eight refurbished Block 25 F-16C/Ds in December 2008 to meet a long-deferred fighter replacement requirement. In the case of Romania, the US Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress in May 2008 of a proposed sale of 24 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 and 24 refurbished and upgraded F-16C/D Block 25 aircraft in a package worth some USD4.5 billion.

However, with effects from the economic downturn steadily eroding Romanian defence spending prospects, eliminating the new-build Block 50s in favour of additional older jets may be the only way the country can achieve its stated target of 48 'new' multirole fighters. Even then, Romania may only be able to afford a total of 24 refurbished and upgraded Block 25s plus a smaller number of unaltered Block 25 airframes for training. Romania's current force of marginally effective MiG-21 Lancers is scheduled for withdrawal from service beginning in 2011: a date that cannot realistically be postponed.

For both these countries, used F-16s would serve as an interim capability bridge until economic conditions improve sufficiently to permit the purchase of new fighters. In recent years both were targets of sales campaigns that variously featured the Saab Gripen, Dassault Rafael, Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and of course new Lockheed Martin F-16s.

Since neither is now likely to be able to afford such massive new defence expenditure, used Falcons may be the only viable option, although the Swedish Air Force is also likely to retire numbers of its older JAS 39A/B Gripens in the near future.

Based on the package for Romania, retired USAF F-16s are likely to be offered at little or no purchase cost, but with the buyer picking up the tab for overhauls, training, delivery, system upgrades and the purchase of new systems such as radars and targeting pods, as well as weapons such as missiles and precision-guided munitions (PGMs). Depending on the extent of chosen upgrades, this could deliver highly capable multirole fighters with a service life of at least 10 years at a fraction of the cost of new models. There would also be a substantial price tag for support infrastructure such as shelters, workshops and stores.

After the successful integration of JAS 39C/Ds into the air forces of Hungary and the Czech Republic earlier this decade, Croatia was widely expected to select the Gripen this year in a competition valued at approximately USD844 million for 12 new fighters to replace ageing MiG-21s. However, this was cancelled in March in the face of national economic pressures. Thus, any offer of used F-16s from the US with generous terms is likely to be well received.

Elsewhere, Iraq is exploring the purchase of a number of new F-16s, but in light of falling oil revenues, could find upgraded older aircraft attractive and more rapidly obtainable. They would be valuable as advanced trainers for pilots transferring to new F-16s and, given Iraqi operational requirements and regional threats, could still perform combat missions as required.

Similarly, Pakistan needs upgraded older F-16C/Ds to replace or supplement even older A/B models. These would serve as a bridge to delivery of new-build Falcons and new fighters under development in co-operation with China. Tunisia is another potential recipient, with a pressing need to replace 13 elderly F-5s but little cash to draw on.

In Latin America, Mexico has a long-standing requirement to replace a declining fleet of 1970s-vintage F-5s with newer, more capable fighters. While these would primarily perform air defence and air policing missions, including the interception of drug-smuggling aircraft, upgraded F-16s would provide the Mexican Air Force with its first multirole precision attack capability. Upgraded F-16 Block 25s would undoubtedly be attractive to Colombia as well and would provide far greater capability than the current plan to upgrade existing IAI Kfirs. Any F-16 deal with Colombia faces intense scrutiny in the US Congress and would surely ignite regional concerns, particularly in neighbouring Venezuela.

The Philippines is perhaps the country in most need of US assistance with rebuilding its more or less defunct fighter capability. Without substantial US help the Philippines is highly unlikely to ever be able to redress the situation, leaving this vast country in a strategic corner of Asia without a viable air defence or air policing capability, let alone the ability to conduct precision air strikes. Introduction of a small force of upgraded F-16s would immediately improve overall security.

In February 2008,US Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced an offer of six new-build F-16 Block 50/52 Fighting Falcons for delivery to Indonesia from 2010 as part of a package expected to include the overhaul and upgrade of the country's existing F-16A/Bs. Instead, Indonesia opted for the phased introduction of a small force of Su-27 and Su-30 fighters from Russia at a cost of around USD550 million. Nonetheless, replacing the F-16A/Bs with multirole, upgraded Block 25s could be an attractive option.

The F-16C/D Block 25 variants due for retirement were introduced into USAF service from 1984 and a total of 209 were delivered. They were the first F-16s with all-weather, beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile capability and featured the improved AN/APG-68 radar. The fleet was later upgraded to the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220E engine and gained a multirole capability. They are currently flown exclusively by the US Air National Guard and within the active duty Air Education and Training Command.

Jim Dorschner is a JDW Correspondent, based in Washington, DC




Used USAF F-16s provide cheap multirole option

 

[SBD-3]

Where did the # 36 f-16's come from? i thought we are buying 18 with a option of 18 more! 18x2= 36 as we have heard 18 are being puchased.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of..........................

 

[PAFAce]

I have just been to Dubai 2009 Airshow courtesy of SHELL who invited me to their hospitality suite. I only managed to watch part of the air show as I needed to get out before the evening rush hour. However I had a chance to observe the following among others:

1. Rafael
2. MB346
3. Super Mashaak
4. L-15
5. PC-21
6. F-22
7. F-16 Block 60
8. Euro copter Tiger Gunship


I was really impressed by the Chinese L-15 supersonic trainer, F-22 Raptor, F-16 block 60 and Tiger gunship. I know that F-16 is not a popular aircraft in this forum for whatever reason. IMO in the Block-60 guise F-16 is still more than a match for any aircraft except F-22

I know what you mean. At the Canadian International Air Show this year, I was able to witness flights of an F-16 Block 52, F/A-18 Super Hornets (Blue Angels), CF-18 Hornet and the F-22 Raptor. I was just in awe over the Raptor, the things it could do were amazing. At one point, it was moving horizontally across the sky with its nose at almost a 45 degrees angle above horizontal, using only its horizontal stabilizers and TVC. However, other than the F-22, the F-16 was by far the most impressive aircraft. It was dancing in the air, it somehow "felt" lighter than the F-18s. The F-86 solo performance was also quite cool, but not in the same league.

That said, the best performance overall was still delivered by the Blue Angels, hands down. They were the stars of the show. Canadian Snow Angels in their T-33s were bested on home turf.

 

[Taha Samad]

Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR - $151 Million

The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

* 14 F100-PW-220E engines;
* 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits;
* De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;
* Support equipment;
* Software development/integration;
* Modification kits;
* Spares, and repair parts;
* Flight test instrumentation;
* Publications and technical documentation;
* Personnel training and training equipment;
* U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.

Firstly is the following information correct???

PAF presently operate two types of F-16's

1) F-16 Blk 15 using f-100-200 engine.(40 delivered, 31 remaining)

2)F-16 Blk 15 OCU using f-100-220 engine (Sanctioned initially delivered post 9/11)

if so please answer the following questions:

1) why are we buying only 14 f-100-220 engines what about engines of remaing 31-14=17 aircrafts.

2) why are only 14 aircrafts undergoing falcon UP/STAR upgrade.
Has it something to do with the fact that F-16 delievered in 80's under went some sort of structural upgrade with help of Egypt.

3) "De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft".What does this statement mean?

regards,
taha

 

[TOPGUN]

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of..........................

Yes my brother current sale is 18 f-16's possibale sale in the future is 18 more hence, PAF buying 18 f-16's with option on 18 more which if 18+18 bought = 36 i know this i was making a point which is the fact anyone check we at this time are only buying 18 with the option of 18 in the future if PAF wants to purchase the.

 

[wangrong]

 

[wangrong]

 

[BATMAN]

^^What is with F/A-18?

 

[BlackenTheSky]

plz clearify me..if one pilot can do everything wat we want him to.in war.then wat is the use of two seater aircraft......?