Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That theory & sh!t list should have been amended before we went into brokering the Afghan Peace Deal.

That was our (only) trump card which we outta have played before getting our feet wet.

And i'm not just talking about just F-16's but in terms of Hercs & Helicopters. Yeah sure everyone here has a solution for F-16's is Block III. But what're we supposed to do 'bout the rest. Who do we approach?

Not sure why we thought the US would take us brokering the peace deal seriously.

This is something we all kept hearing on the forum by folks, but there was never any substance to the belief. If our leaders ever thought Pakistan was a serious player on the table, then the US likely laughed it off and told us to be happy they haven't put trade sanctions on us (and totally torpedo our economy seeing how we do maintain a trade surplus with the US!).

We spent all of our leverage in the early 2000s in helping the US get into Afghanistan, and got paid billions in dollars of military and economic aid at that time.

As for supplanting the C-130s and helicopters, there are ways. We can, for one, work with Ukraine/Brazil and Turkey, respectively.

Ukraine is working on a transport aircraft called An-178 -- as well as next-gen engine for it called AI-28 -- while Brazil has the C390. Sure, neither is as good as a Herc for rough conditions, but for most transport duties, these aircraft are fine.

We could work out a deal with either and became the top export customer, and in turn, get a sizable co-production deal to help our domestic industry.

The Turks invited us to their T625 utility helicopter program, and that links to the T629 attack helicopter. So, it's on us to stop panicking over perceived 'urgent needs', and switch to co-development and co-production instead.

Yes, it would mean keeping things quiet in the procurement front for 5-10 years (like the PAF is with Project AZM). However, just as the US doesn't want us to stab India, the US would also want India to focus on China.

If it falters in this regard, then the US will use Pakistan to sting India back in line (e.g., it did not openly sanction us for using the F-16s during Swift Retort). Think logically: If there is an Indo-Pak War, the beneficiary (as far as US is concerned) is China.

There are always ways. The issue is that Pakistani leaders and decision makers lack competence, sincerity and vision. There are a few gems, but by and large, folks are just in it for the job, not the cause.

 

[Trango Towers]

In theory, yes, the PAF can pursue used F-16s. Pakistan is (on paper) a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) and can request access to mothballed ex-US equipment, and only pay for refurbishing them (under the Excess Defence Articles) program.

But when it comes to Pakistan, the theory doesn't apply.

The US isn't in the mood to help Pakistan get militarily stronger (as that'd concern India, which the US is working to get on board to help contain China).

The US wants normalization of ties between India and Pakistan (read: for India to get what it wants so that it can focus on China ... aka de-fang Pakistan).

The US is not going to de-fang Pakistan, but it doesn't want to sharpen those fangs either -- unless now India becomes a threat to the US.

That latter issue is at play from a policy standpoint, which has made getting used US equipment difficult for Pakistan. It's not just the F-16s, but also old helicopters, C-130s, old frigates, etc, you name it.

TLDR: The PAF is on everyone's sh!t list, more so than even the Pak Army or Pak Navy. Basically, air power is a strategic asset, especially if you have offensively capable assets and the freedom to equip, configure and deploy them at will.

And Pakistan is currently in a situation where it is an indirect threat to US interests (i.e., diverting India's attention away from China). The US will deny us that asset.

So, the only way to break from that is to (1) structurally transform your economy and get a miracle in your name so that you can outspend India on defence and/or (2) get solutions of your own like Project AZM.

In theory, yes, the PAF can pursue used F-16s. Pakistan is (on paper) a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) and can request access to mothballed ex-US equipment, and only pay for refurbishing them (under the Excess Defence Articles) program.

But when it comes to Pakistan, the theory doesn't apply.

The US isn't in the mood to help Pakistan get militarily stronger (as that'd concern India, which the US is working to get on board to help contain China).

The US wants normalization of ties between India and Pakistan (read: for India to get what it wants so that it can focus on China ... aka de-fang Pakistan).

The US is not going to de-fang Pakistan, but it doesn't want to sharpen those fangs either -- unless now India becomes a threat to the US.

That latter issue is at play from a policy standpoint, which has made getting used US equipment difficult for Pakistan. It's not just the F-16s, but also old helicopters, C-130s, old frigates, etc, you name it.

TLDR: The PAF is on everyone's sh!t list, more so than even the Pak Army or Pak Navy. Basically, air power is a strategic asset, especially if you have offensively capable assets and the freedom to equip, configure and deploy them at will.

And Pakistan is currently in a situation where it is an indirect threat to US interests (i.e., diverting India's attention away from China). The US will deny us that asset.

So, the only way to break from that is to (1) structurally transform your economy and get a miracle in your name so that you can outspend India on defence and/or (2) get solutions of your own like Project AZM.

you are pretty spot on.
I think its a blessing that USA is showing its true colours. They blocked Zulus and F16. It means we have to focus the limited resources on weapons systems that we can rely on. Recent aerial skirmish between IAF and PAF has shown the world what we can do and it's also a lesson that the best toys doest mean the best players. Indians on paper should defeat PAF without taking off but the reality was displayed on Feb 27 2019.
the only way forward is lots of new jf17 blk3 and block 1 and 2 brought up to 3 standards. once this is done project AZM should be in the testing phase and we are with anything India can throw at us.
India has to take a major decision on its fighter acquisition. once that's done then the other parties who only wish to see to India will become available if we have cash. that includes US f16.
remember Khafee last year started a rumour about F16 block 70 and I got a lot of abuse because i called him out. Well, he has disappeared and I am proven correct re the F16.

one other thing PAF can do with block 3 upgrade is strengthening the wings for greater loading and add additional hardpoints or multiple missile racks for A2A only JF17 block 3+.
maybe block 1 and 2 can focus on air to ground activities

you are pretty spot on.
I think its a blessing that USA is showing its true colours. They blocked Zulus and F16. It means we have to focus the limited resources on weapons systems that we can rely on. Recent aerial skirmish between IAF and PAF has shown the world what we can do and it's also a lesson that the best toys doest mean the best players. Indians on paper should defeat PAF without taking off but the reality was displayed on Feb 27 2019.
the only way forward is lots of new jf17 blk3 and block 1 and 2 brought up to 3 standards. once this is done project AZM should be in the testing phase and we are with anything India can throw at us.
India has to take a major decision on its fighter acquisition. once that's done then the other parties who only wish to see to India will become available if we have cash. that includes US f16.
remember Khafee last year started a rumour about F16 block 70 and I got a lot of abuse because i called him out. Well, he has disappeared and I am proven correct re the F16.

one other thing PAF can do with block 3 upgrade is strengthening the wings for greater loading and add additional hardpoints or multiple missile racks for A2A only JF17 block 3+.
maybe block 1 and 2 can focus on air to ground activities

 

[ali_raza]

you are pretty spot on.
I think its a blessing that USA is showing its true colours. They blocked Zulus and F16. It means we have to focus the limited resources on weapons systems that we can rely on. Recent aerial skirmish between IAF and PAF has shown the world what we can do and it's also a lesson that the best toys doest mean the best players. Indians on paper should defeat PAF without taking off but the reality was displayed on Feb 27 2019.
the only way forward is lots of new jf17 blk3 and block 1 and 2 brought up to 3 standards. once this is done project AZM should be in the testing phase and we are with anything India can throw at us.
India has to take a major decision on its fighter acquisition. once that's done then the other parties who only wish to see to India will become available if we have cash. that includes US f16.
remember Khafee last year started a rumour about F16 block 70 and I got a lot of abuse because i called him out. Well, he has disappeared and I am proven correct re the F16.

one other thing PAF can do with block 3 upgrade is strengthening the wings for greater loading and add additional hardpoints or multiple missile racks for A2A only JF17 block 3+.
maybe block 1 and 2 can focus on air to ground activities

it wasn’t a rumor
and btw talks never stopped
there r some things that americans want
if we ready to play ball
f35 too will come.
these things r beyond ur understanding

 

[Trango Towers]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) what do you think of this?

one other thing PAF can do with block 3 upgrade is strengthening the wings for greater loading and add additional hardpoints or multiple missile racks for A2A only JF17 block 3+.
maybe block 1 and 2 can focus on air to ground activities

 

[Trailer23]

if we ready to play ball
f35 too will come.

O yaar, I certainly did not have any intention of stirring up the hornets nest.

I was merely talking just 'F-16' as per Topic.

But now you've done it. Expect some responses within a day.

 

[ali_raza]

O yaar, I certainly did not have any intention of stirring up the hornets nest.

I was merely talking just 'F-16' as per Topic.

But now you've done it. Expect some responses within a day.

lol people can’t digest truth

 

[Trailer23]

lol people can’t digest truth

We're here talking 'bout used-F-16's.

We can't even finance Block 70/72's on a 10 Year payment plan and here you're talking 'bout a US $108 Million plane.

Even a deal with the devil wouldn't let a F-35 land in Pakistan, let alone be in a PAF inventory.

 

[mingle]

it wasn’t a rumor
and btw talks never stopped
there r some things that americans want
if we ready to play ball
f35 too will come.
these things r beyond ur understanding

What U think he can't understand politics??? I believe it has nothing to with India?? What ever it is?? US main concern is Afghanistan where they spent 1 trillion

 

[Trango Towers]

We're here talking 'bout used-F-16's.

We can't even finance Block 70/72's on a 10 Year payment plan and here you're talking 'bout a US $108 Million plane.

Even a deal with the devil wouldn't let a F-35 land in Pakistan, let alone be in a PAF inventory.

Why would you want an F35 ?

 

[Trailer23]

Why would you want an F35 ?

Whoa, whoa, whoa...hold on.

I didn't even bring up the JSF.

You wanna point fingers, ask the other guy.

I started the conversation with the possibility of USED-F-16's - (first post on top)

Another Member shifted the matter...JSF.

Sheesh...

 

[ziaulislam]

That theory & sh!t list should have been amended before we went into brokering the Afghan Peace Deal.

That was our (only) trump card which we outta have played before getting our feet wet.

And i'm not just talking about just F-16's but in terms of Hercs & Helicopters. Yeah sure everyone here has a solution for F-16's is Block III. But what're we supposed to do 'bout the rest. Who do we approach?

The trump card isnt the peace agreement but the aftermath...maintianing the peace...second we needed IMF we used that trump card for IMF deal ..

We had a big problem getting f16s even after 9/11 and it was all of sudden in 2005 that it happened..despite it being no.1 on agenda during musharraf era..i believe it happened when PAF started to negotiate gripen deal...and was eyeing at rafales...USA squashed that deal and offered f16s instead

This video clip where he forced the f16

After 3 min...

I remeber cabinent giving approval for negotiations for aircarft from sweden (gripen). It was on PTV news...

 

[ali_raza]

We're here talking 'bout used-F-16's.

We can't even finance Block 70/72's on a 10 Year payment plan and here you're talking 'bout a US $108 Million plane.

Even a deal with the devil wouldn't let a F-35 land in Pakistan, let alone be in a PAF inventory.

buddy leme give u a tip about americans
tbey r a super power because they have some rules and some ways
there biggest god is intrest and second is money
after these things there is nothing
u have it u get anything u want
and we have some of things america wants
and btw biggest dialogue in america is
whts in it for me

 

[mingle]

buddy leme give u a tip about americans
tbey r a super power because they have some rules and some ways
there biggest god is intrest and second is money
after these things there is nothing
u have it u get anything u want
and we have some of things america wants
and btw biggest dialogue in america is
whts in it for me

Business what they call it

 

[MastanKhan]

The trump card isnt the peace agreement but the aftermath...maintianing the peace...second we needed IMF we used that trump card for IMF deal ..

We had a big problem getting f16s even after 9/11 and it was all of sudden in 2005 that it happened..despite it being no.1 on agenda during musharraf era..i believe it happened when PAF started to negotiate gripen deal...and was eyeing at rafales...USA squashed that deal and offered f16s instead

This video clip where he forced the f16

After 3 min...

I remeber cabinent giving approval for negotiations for aircarft from sweden (gripen). It was on PTV news...

Hi,

It could have been made simple thru initial negotiations right at the begining---.

If thing had not gone well---pakistan should have put sanctions on the supply line under pressure from pakistani public---.

 

[ali_raza]

The trump card isnt the peace agreement but the aftermath...maintianing the peace...second we needed IMF we used that trump card for IMF deal ..

We had a big problem getting f16s even after 9/11 and it was all of sudden in 2005 that it happened..despite it being no.1 on agenda during musharraf era..i believe it happened when PAF started to negotiate gripen deal...and was eyeing at rafales...USA squashed that deal and offered f16s instead

This video clip where he forced the f16

After 3 min...

I remeber cabinent giving approval for negotiations for aircarft from sweden (gripen). It was on PTV news...

we never negotiated good enough
had just mushi asked one thing
whts in it for me
i m giving u a gooddaam country on a plate for fuk sake take off all debt give us 10 billion a year 5/5 military civilian
americans we’re ready to go any leagnth for us. but we fuuked up big time
capitulated right at the first time
had we had a guy with a little bit more balls to get the initial american pressure
and the bogey about indians stepping in
that was beyond funny but mushi pissed his pants
got wht americans gave him happily