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Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

I attended a World Bank lecture several years ago, and the lecturer was very candid that most of their economic measurements with regards to Pakistan do not hold. Reason being it's undocumented black economy which is estimated to be equal if not greater than the actual economy, to the outsider it seems like a failed economy but if you go to the people level it's a thriving economy, new luxury housing projects popping up, record number of cars being bought, booming real estate and consumer markets etc.

We asked about comparisons with the then Greek Debt crisis of 2007-8 where Greece was unable to repay loans. He said in terms of Greece they have been scratching their heads as there are no easy fixes but Pakistan's problems can be fixed with the right management, if the black economy is documented and policies adopted for local growth things will turnover really quick. And this optimism is at a time when CPEC wasn't started and impact of terrorism was at it's peak.

http://tns.thenews.com.pk/dynamics-black-economy/#.WxDuFkiFPIU

Also a weaker PKR vs Dollar is regrettable and drives up inflation but if it is kept at this level and policies managed right it will also mean Pakistani exports have the potential to be cheaper than China (RMB artificially undervalued), India and Bangladesh. So in the long run it could be utilized for a plus.

And for a reminder to every one who think our low foreign currency reserve situation is really bad, when Pakistan tested it's nukes in 1998 we had less than $400m. If we can go through and recover from that without sacrificing our defence needs than we can do it again.

For the big ticket purchases, they are done on credit financing, Pakistan does not need to pay it all upfront. A budget allocation is made to pay it over a number of years. Sovereignty and defence are upmost priorities, if the leaders decide their is a urgent need they can still make big purchases, will put a strain on the budgets but it will not shatter the economy as what is being proposed.

Pakistan had roughly a dozen F-104s but they maintained a huge psychological impact during the war, the possibility of their presence was a huge risk factor for InAF planners. PAF at the moment has it's hands full with too many things but if it needs to it can request for purchase of a small number of high performance air superiority optimized fighters to be employed in CAP the same way as the F-104s. It's a matter of how long PAF can hold out, longer it waits the options get better. And despite whats being touted the edge InAF enjoyed is downgraded by their operational issues, so there is room for waiting. Compound that with the fact that Pakistan's tactical nukes have made war too costly for any aggressor.

Buying weapons is easy maintaining them in time of conflict is difficult. Pakistan has been at a state of war over the last couple of years and it's admirable that it's procurement focus is on sustainable platforms where it can endure a conflict of attrition. Case being the huge F-16 supply reserves and availability of spares from Turkey, large AMRAAM order compared to fleet size, JF-17s fully sustainable with local munitions and spares etc. There is a room for a third platform which is a matter of a few years. US doesnt have restrictions on Pakistani F-16s as it once had as they are no longer the top of the line variants with restrictive technologies, it's only a matter of price and spares are unrestricted from third parties.

Compare that with India, its procurement methods have created nightmares, and has a war time reserve down to just 10 days, aircraft availability will go down drastically as it's platforms are maintenance heavy and multi sourced.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...upply-shortfall-cag-report-1025676-2017-07-21

Saudia and other rich Arab states have bought the best possible platforms money can buy but since not much attention paid to capacity development and short cuts taken in buying off the shelf, in time of conflict amongst them self or against Israel it is unlikely they will get the spares from US to sustain them for more than a few days. Case being how Saudia has turned to Chinese UCAV use in Yemen, as it was too expensive and unsustainable to use fighters. Same for how UAE decided to stick to it's M2ks and squeeze their operational lives in Yemen.

Sonic booms over Amritsar incident, putting opponent in panic. There is also the incident of a Gnat landing to avoid a F-104 but was caught by locals.
 
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Pakistan had roughly a dozen F-104s but they maintained a huge psychological impact during the war, the possibility of their presence was a huge risk factor for InAF planners.

Only a stealth fighter can give this edge now, if PAF inducts and trains on stealth fighter, tactics and strategy before IAF does.
 
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Only a stealth fighter can give this edge now, if PAF inducts and trains on stealth fighter, tactics and strategy before IAF does.

A low observable platform that can be sustained in time of war with super cruise, heavily data linked with multiple platforms/sensors and ability to operate in a heavy EW jamming environment. Basically a fighter to harass the enemy or greet them in Pakistani aerospace. Not needed in large numbers, perhaps a single sqd that could be spread out in pairs in strategic locations.

I would use the term low observable because nothing is truly stealth these days because of advancement in detection capabilities.

Hence the argument that Pakistan should wait longer and skip induction of a new high end platform like SU-35, J-10 and Eurofighter even if it gets the financing arrangements. But keep evaluating them so that it could continue to learn of developments. Untill a suitable next gen platform not ready if it needs to buy jets to maintain operational levels than should be of the existing types F-16 or JF-17 because they are already extensively integrated.
 
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A squadron of j20 next version will do the trick temporarily

Why next version, simple, it will need super cruise and TV engine
 
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A low observable platform that can be sustained in time of war with super cruise, heavily data linked with multiple platforms/sensors and ability to operate in a heavy EW jamming environment. Basically a fighter to harass the enemy or greet them in Pakistani aerospace. Not needed in large numbers, perhaps a single sqd that could be spread out in pairs in strategic locations.

I would use the term low observable because nothing is truly stealth these days because of advancement in detection capabilities.

Hence the argument that Pakistan should wait longer and skip induction of a new high end platform like SU-35, J-10 and Eurofighter even if it gets the financing arrangements. But keep evaluating them so that it could continue to learn of developments. Untill a suitable next gen platform not ready if it needs to buy jets to maintain operational levels than should be of the existing types F-16 or JF-17 because they are already extensively integrated.

There is nothing in PAF inventory that can come up to range and payload of SU30MKI and then Rafale. Its PAF's good luck that IAF has gone for a 4.5 gen plane (Rafale) instead of inducting a 5th gen and induction will take some time along with Tejas. IAF actually should have gone for 5th gen as there are already lots of 4.5 gen, 4 gen and 3 gen aircrafts in service. IAF can win a war of attrition as its inducting more SU30MKI. Meanwhile there are alot of 4 Gen lying around, Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. The strike aircraft like Jaguar and Mig-27 can take over strike roles from SU30MKI and Mirage-2000, when needed.

PAF can only sustain a war of attrition if reserve JF-17's are put in place, total number going 300+. This actually limits PAF combat abilities to a defensive war, since JF-17 is has compromises in the form of payload and range. The F-16 will be used only when there is no other choice, its very capable and threatening but its a white elephant for PAF. As soon as spares start to dwindle down and a few Block 52+ are hit and destroyed, the remaining will be used sparingly.

The 5th gen aircraft not only brings a psychological factor of dominance in the skies and a step ahead of anything that IAF could offer, it also brings an situational awareness factor on the battlefield while armed, unlike unarmed AWACS. Of course its not invisible on the radar, but it will force enemy to switch on their radars. Enemy may try using IRST but IRST has limitations in range also. 5th gen will have powerful jammers and will give PAF the ability to fight high altitude air combat while the F-16's and JF-17's handle medium and low altitude combat scenarios.

Two more major roles that 5th gen fighter will be expected to perform are: It would also be expected to sneak across border and bomb enemy and secondly it will be expected to sneak as close as possible to AWACS and threaten to bring it down through long range/BVR AAM.

A formation of 2 x 5th Gen aircraft and 4 x JF-17, with JF-17 leading and 5th Gen aircraft at the rear, data linked with JF-17 , guiding and complimenting JF-17 with long range BVR AAM's of 5th gen fighter will give a headache to IAF air formations, since 5th gen in the air would enhance survival factor of JF-17 by more than 50% making a light aircraft like JF-17 very lethal. Even if JF-17 are shot down, it could be replaced, unlike F-16 or Mirage III/V.

To some extent, a 5th gen also fits in Mastan Khan scenario requiring long range bombing mission, performed through efficient use of fuel through selecting correct altitude without compromising detection and carrying strike payload inside its belly, it will have more chances of survivability due to stealthy profile, jammers, modern CM's and other EW equipment.
 
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Yes I am an economist by education. But that is not relevant to the point I was making so I will briefly explain why you are so ill-informed on how economic sanctions work and why Pakistan can't do much at all due to its structural weaknesses (nuclear weapons don't make a country powerful).

There are 3 types of economic sanctions, broadly speaking. First are ones being imposed against Iran/N Korea for instance where you can not do any trade or business with that country (explains why Pakistan couldn't follow through with the oil pipeline when there were sanctions prior to the Iran deal).
Secondary to those are targeted sanctions where individuals or entities are sanctioned for whatever behavior the US doesn't like and you can't do business with them. It also includes asset freezes etc if they are any within the US banking systems.
Finally, and what this law seems to indicate, are sanctions that block your access to the US ... ie, say you are dealing with Russia in this case, even though it might be completely unrelated to US, they can block your access to the US banking facilities, markets, trade etc.

Now we all know how precarious Pakistan's economy is. You to think we could weather the storm of economic sanctions? Don't mistake prior weapon sale restrictions on Pakistan as real sanctions btw ... economic activity was allowed to continue under them.
When countries with weak macroeconmic conditions are hit with sanctions that would limit their access to international capital, the end result is detrimental impact on the financial and banking stability of those countries, stymied economic growth, inflation, political instability and even civil war or worsening humanitarian situation like shortage of medical supplies, malnutrition, etc (happened in Iraq, happening in Venezuela as an eg)
Id even add that Pakistan might fare worse as it has nothing to fall back on as is the case with Russian, Iran, Iraq (all major oil producers). What would Pakistan sell to say Russia or China? Mangoes and textiles perhaps?

Regardless of whether the sanctions are effective in meeting their intended purposes, my point was that Pakistan is not in the position to disregard US sanctions on other countries as it has way more to lose then to gain if it chooses to ignore them. I think that point would be clear to anyone, economist or not.

Hi,

Thank you for an excellent post---. You pulled the pedestal from under the feet of many.

Your background is extremely important in any conversation---because it tells the one listening why are you saying what you are saying---.
 
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I attended a World Bank lecture several years ago, and the lecturer was very candid that most of their economic measurements with regards to Pakistan do not hold. Reason being it's undocumented black economy which is estimated to be equal if not greater than the actual economy, to the outsider it seems like a failed economy but if you go to the people level it's a thriving economy, new luxury housing projects popping up, record number of cars being bought, booming real estate and consumer markets etc.

We asked about comparisons with the then Greek Debt crisis of 2007-8 where Greece was unable to repay loans. He said in terms of Greece they have been scratching their heads as there are no easy fixes but Pakistan's problems can be fixed with the right management, if the black economy is documented and policies adopted for local growth things will turnover really quick. And this optimism is at a time when CPEC wasn't started and impact of terrorism was at it's peak.

http://tns.thenews.com.pk/dynamics-black-economy/#.WxDuFkiFPIU

Also a weaker PKR vs Dollar is regrettable and drives up inflation but if it is kept at this level and policies managed right it will also mean Pakistani exports have the potential to be cheaper than China (RMB artificially undervalued), India and Bangladesh. So in the long run it could be utilized for a plus.

And for a reminder to every one who think our low foreign currency reserve situation is really bad, when Pakistan tested it's nukes in 1998 we had less than $400m. If we can go through and recover from that without sacrificing our defence needs than we can do it again.

For the big ticket purchases, they are done on credit financing, Pakistan does not need to pay it all upfront. A budget allocation is made to pay it over a number of years. Sovereignty and defence are upmost priorities, if the leaders decide their is a urgent need they can still make big purchases, will put a strain on the budgets but it will not shatter the economy as what is being proposed.

Pakistan had roughly a dozen F-104s but they maintained a huge psychological impact during the war, the possibility of their presence was a huge risk factor for InAF planners. PAF at the moment has it's hands full with too many things but if it needs to it can request for purchase of a small number of high performance air superiority optimized fighters to be employed in CAP the same way as the F-104s. It's a matter of how long PAF can hold out, longer it waits the options get better. And despite whats being touted the edge InAF enjoyed is downgraded by their operational issues, so there is room for waiting. Compound that with the fact that Pakistan's tactical nukes have made war too costly for any aggressor.

Buying weapons is easy maintaining them in time of conflict is difficult. Pakistan has been at a state of war over the last couple of years and it's admirable that it's procurement focus is on sustainable platforms where it can endure a conflict of attrition. Case being the huge F-16 supply reserves and availability of spares from Turkey, large AMRAAM order compared to fleet size, JF-17s fully sustainable with local munitions and spares etc. There is a room for a third platform which is a matter of a few years. US doesnt have restrictions on Pakistani F-16s as it once had as they are no longer the top of the line variants with restrictive technologies, it's only a matter of price and spares are unrestricted from third parties.

Compare that with India, its procurement methods have created nightmares, and has a war time reserve down to just 10 days, aircraft availability will go down drastically as it's platforms are maintenance heavy and multi sourced.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...upply-shortfall-cag-report-1025676-2017-07-21

Saudia and other rich Arab states have bought the best possible platforms money can buy but since not much attention paid to capacity development and short cuts taken in buying off the shelf, in time of conflict amongst them self or against Israel it is unlikely they will get the spares from US to sustain them for more than a few days. Case being how Saudia has turned to Chinese UCAV use in Yemen, as it was too expensive and unsustainable to use fighters. Same for how UAE decided to stick to it's M2ks and squeeze their operational lives in Yemen.

Sonic booms over Amritsar incident, putting opponent in panic. There is also the incident of a Gnat landing to avoid a F-104 but was caught by locals.

I can definitely agree to that. While working on an IMF funded project, I was involved in surveying Pakistani SMEs. It is perfectly possible that the majority of the output generated in Pakistan is black. There may even be cases of showing lower output in production than warranted to pay lower taxes, or because x, y and z want to make money off the production.

With the CPEC Pakistan is in a clear path to serious economic growth. I very seriously doubt US CAATSA related embargoes, even if ever applied (unlikely given Pompeo and the coming Iran scenario), would break the back of the Pakistani economy. Nor that international lenders would stop lending... These are just scare stories for kids.

F-16s were the new F-104 starfighters. They were few in number but scared the Indians. Pakistan needs that spear tip, specially in a limited skirmish. I doubt buying old M2Ks would serve that function. J-20s / J-31s / J-xx / Su-35 / Eurofighter would.
 
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There is nothing in PAF inventory that can come up to range and payload of SU30MKI and then Rafale. Its PAF's good luck that IAF has gone for a 4.5 gen plane (Rafale) instead of inducting a 5th gen and induction will take some time along with Tejas. IAF actually should have gone for 5th gen as there are already lots of 4.5 gen, 4 gen and 3 gen aircrafts in service. IAF can win a war of attrition as its inducting more SU30MKI. Meanwhile there are alot of 4 Gen lying around, Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. The strike aircraft like Jaguar and Mig-27 can take over strike roles from SU30MKI and Mirage-2000, when needed.

PAF can only sustain a war of attrition if reserve JF-17's are put in place, total number going 300+. This actually limits PAF combat abilities to a defensive war, since JF-17 is has compromises in the form of payload and range. The F-16 will be used only when there is no other choice, its very capable and threatening but its a white elephant for PAF. As soon as spares start to dwindle down and a few Block 52+ are hit and destroyed, the remaining will be used sparingly.

The 5th gen aircraft not only brings a psychological factor of dominance in the skies and a step ahead of anything that IAF could offer, it also brings an situational awareness factor on the battlefield while armed, unlike unarmed AWACS. Of course its not invisible on the radar, but it will force enemy to switch on their radars. Enemy may try using IRST but IRST has limitations in range also. 5th gen will have powerful jammers and will give PAF the ability to fight high altitude air combat while the F-16's and JF-17's handle medium and low altitude combat scenarios.

Two more major roles that 5th gen fighter will be expected to perform are: It would also be expected to sneak across border and bomb enemy and secondly it will be expected to sneak as close as possible to AWACS and threaten to bring it down through long range/BVR AAM.

A formation of 2 x 5th Gen aircraft and 4 x JF-17, with JF-17 leading and 5th Gen aircraft at the rear, data linked with JF-17 , guiding and complimenting JF-17 with long range BVR AAM's of 5th gen fighter will give a headache to IAF air formations, since 5th gen in the air would enhance survival factor of JF-17 by more than 50% making a light aircraft like JF-17 very lethal. Even if JF-17 are shot down, it could be replaced, unlike F-16 or Mirage III/V.

To some extent, a 5th gen also fits in Mastan Khan scenario requiring long range bombing mission, performed through efficient use of fuel through selecting correct altitude without compromising detection and carrying strike payload inside its belly, it will have more chances of survivability due to stealthy profile, jammers, modern CM's and other EW equipment.


Hi,

What an excellent post---.
 
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I can definitely agree to that. While working on an IMF funded project, I was involved in surveying Pakistani SMEs. It is perfectly possible that the majority of the output generated in Pakistan is black. There may even be cases of showing lower output in production than warranted to pay lower taxes, or because x, y and z want to make money off the production.

With the CPEC Pakistan is in a clear path to serious economic growth. I very seriously doubt US CAATSA related embargoes, even if ever applied (unlikely given Pompeo and the coming Iran scenario), would break the back of the Pakistani economy. Nor that international lenders would stop lending... These are just scare stories for kids.

F-16s were the new F-104 starfighters. They were few in number but scared the Indians. Pakistan needs that spear tip, specially in a limited skirmish. I doubt buying old M2Ks would serve that function. J-20s / J-31s / J-xx / Su-35 / Eurofighter would.

CAATSA related sanctions are meant to keep Russian exports down by threatening retaliatory sanctions (limited in scope) to countries thinking of importing Russian weapons. They are not meant to break the back of anyone but make the decision painful and uneconomical. Pakistan has to consider the pros and cons of any such transaction and will abstain from purchasing Su-35s or other significant weapon systems like S-400s for eg (not even sure Russians would have sold them to begin with).

You missed the crux of my post looks like. Regardless of what Pakistan's "Underground economy" is like, its financial health is precarious and highly prone to failure were there to be economic sanctions on us. Therefore before we can take our stance as a country we need to bring all of the economic activity under one umbrella.

Buying used M2Ks serves as a quick numbers fillers if further used F-16s are unlikely. They also solve Pakistan's issue with not being able to carry certain weapons on the F-16s and JF-17s and would allow Mirage 5s to be retired. I don't believe ex-Qatari examples will be expensive as being made out here.
 
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CAATSA related sanctions are meant to keep Russian exports down by threatening retaliatory sanctions (limited in scope) to countries thinking of importing Russian weapons. They are not meant to break the back of anyone but make the decision painful and uneconomical. Pakistan has to consider the pros and cons of any such transaction and will abstain from purchasing Su-35s or other significant weapon systems like S-400s for eg (not even sure Russians would have sold them to begin with).

You missed the crux of my post looks like. Regardless of what Pakistan's "Underground economy" is like, its financial health is precarious and highly prone to failure were there to be economic sanctions on us. Therefore before we can take our stance as a country we need to bring all of the economic activity under one umbrella.

Buying used M2Ks serves as a quick numbers fillers if further used F-16s are unlikely. They also solve Pakistan's issue with not being able to carry certain weapons on the F-16s and JF-17s and would allow Mirage 5s to be retired. I don't believe ex-Qatari examples will be expensive as being made out here.

I don't know what planet you live in and where you work as an economist, and where you've gotten your knowledge of financial markets, but:

1. Sanctions like CAATSA do not mean global financial markets stop lending (claim you made)
2. Economies do not collapse due to such sanctions (claim you made)

You sound like a poster-boy for American sanctions. And no, Pakistan's financial position is not going to collapse anytime. Not with the CPEC and China acting as a de facto guarantor.

Other than these patently false claims - the mature question is - should Pakistan risk the chance of sanctions that could cut aid money? (not that the country will collapse...)

Given that Pakistan is seeking a multi-lateral world and is seeking a more independent foreign policy (i.e. not to continue to be a colony of the US), it is very likely that just like Turkey, Pakistan will not allow the US to determine its foreign policy.

There is of course the US-backed lobbies that will say otherwise. Who knows?

Let us suppose that Pakistan doesn't go for the Russian fighter, and lets suppose - stops buying RD-93s too. Even in this case, you haven't replied to my response to your claims about the Chinese fighters available.

Buying M2Ks is a fools errand. At 3 times the CPFH of F-16s, old airframes and a new type (with all the sunk costs involved), ...

Anyways, you are entitled to your opinions. I've already stated mine. Let's not spoil the show for all the other forum members on this great thread.

A Mastan Khan moment for PAF in terms of the Su-35: PAF could get these birds for a bargain deal. Russia would probably be very happy to sell just to go one-up on the Americans.
 
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I don't know what planet you live in and where you work as an economist, and where you've gotten your knowledge of financial markets, but:

1. Sanctions like CAATSA do not mean global financial markets stop lending (claim you made)
2. Economies do not collapse due to such sanctions (claim you made)

You sound like a poster-boy for American sanctions. And no, Pakistan's financial position is not going to collapse anytime. Not with the CPEC and China acting as a de facto guarantor.

Other than these patently false claims - the mature question is - should Pakistan risk the chance of sanctions that could cut aid money? (not that the country will collapse...)

Given that Pakistan is seeking a multi-lateral world and is seeking a more independent foreign policy (i.e. not to continue to be a colony of the US), it is very likely that just like Turkey, Pakistan will not allow the US to determine its foreign policy.

There is of course the US-backed lobbies that will say otherwise. Who knows?

Let us suppose that Pakistan doesn't go for the Russian fighter, and lets suppose - stops buying RD-93s too. Even in this case, you haven't replied to my response to your claims about the Chinese fighters available.

Buying M2Ks is a fools errand. At 3 times the CPFH of F-16s, old airframes and a new type (with all the sunk costs involved), ...

Anyways, you are entitled to your opinions. I've already stated mine. Let's not spoil the show for all the other forum members on this great thread.

A Mastan Khan moment for PAF in terms of the Su-35: PAF could get these birds for a bargain deal. Russia would probably be very happy to sell just to go one-up on the Americans.
Brother unfortunately you have no idea what you are talking about ...

@GriffinsRule has rightly said about the way these economic sanctions work ... For your ease of understanding US is world central bank and have control almost all international transactions including our most of the transactions with china and US can impose resteictions on banks that they cannot process any Pakistan based transations .. in such a scenario we will be economically isolated from the whole world ...

You can understand it like State bank of pakistan instruct all the banks to not to transfer any money pertaining to you then you cant do any transations other than cash ... You cant even get salary

Good thing with iran is that they sale oil which is global product and can be traded in barter but Pakistan cant do the same with textile ...

However on the other side US has its limitations too ... Too much restrictions and they will loose reliablity of dollar and countries will start looking for a second global currency for which China is also working...

Anyways this is all off topic so lets close it here ...
 
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Signalian also makes an important point about what is now definitively the "Mastan Khan scenario" that for strike a 5th gen would not need to fly low... I wonder if that is so or not. Needs more discussion I think.

Hi,

The 5th gen is a high flying aircraft---like after colleague Aamir Hussein had post awhile ago an F22 scenario video about 1 hr long---.

The 5th gen would be flying high---and it would be the spearhead---. It will find and locate the target---and thru data link---it will launch the weapons from a 4th gen aircraft that is flying way behind it.

The weapons would be launched from a standoff distance---and then those aircraft would bug off along with the 5th gen aircraft---.
 
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