Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[MastanKhan]

If a country buys fighter jets from the US, how likely is it that the jets come installed with "backdoor" software that can disable them?

Alexandre Kouyoumdjian, Have been reading about aircraft since I could read.
Answered Mon

I once had a conversation about this with a procurement official in the French Ministry of Defence, in charge of coordinating with his British peers. He told me that the latter were rather dismayed by a recent development in their F-35 procurement process.

See, jet fighters do not have ignition keys, but some (F-35 included) need a security code to be launched. In the F-35’s case, those codes are only valid 24 hours, and there is a dedicated generator for those codes. Essentially, you press a button on the generator, get a code, and you can use your plane that day (this may be somewhat simplified and slightly inaccurate as it is a second-hand account, but that would be the gist of it).

So far, so good. The only problem is that late in the negotiation process, the American side decided that it would keep those generators and supply the British with security codes as they were required.

As you can imagine, the British were enraged at this, as it simply means that the US can basically ground the entire F-35 fleet, just by refusing to provide the security codes for that day. In effect, this means that the UK cannot launch air operations without (at least reluctant) US approval.

I would imagine that many more such security measures are in place, in the F-35 and many other weapons systems alike ".

 

[Sine Nomine]

If a country buys fighter jets from the US, how likely is it that the jets come installed with "backdoor" software that can disable them?

Alexandre Kouyoumdjian, Have been reading about aircraft since I could read.
Answered Mon

I once had a conversation about this with a procurement official in the French Ministry of Defence, in charge of coordinating with his British peers. He told me that the latter were rather dismayed by a recent development in their F-35 procurement process.

See, jet fighters do not have ignition keys, but some (F-35 included) need a security code to be launched. In the F-35’s case, those codes are only valid 24 hours, and there is a dedicated generator for those codes. Essentially, you press a button on the generator, get a code, and you can use your plane that day (this may be somewhat simplified and slightly inaccurate as it is a second-hand account, but that would be the gist of it).

So far, so good. The only problem is that late in the negotiation process, the American side decided that it would keep those generators and supply the British with security codes as they were required.

As you can imagine, the British were enraged at this, as it simply means that the US can basically ground the entire F-35 fleet, just by refusing to provide the security codes for that day. In effect, this means that the UK cannot launch air operations without (at least reluctant) US approval.

I would imagine that many more such security measures are in place, in the F-35 and many other weapons systems alike.

MK you know many would not believe what you want to state and will say that's illogical but let's discuss a logical matter.
With current Indo-US setup see US hell bent on pleasing India to use her against China sale of cutting edge P-8,Surveillance drones,Engines,Ah-64d's and offering them F-16 and many more things is not a small development.
No,lets go back to falkland wars and we all know that,How French and US betrayed Argentineans at last moment,have a look
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...ped-britain-retake-the-falklands-7618420.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html
At that time there wasn't any special love among them except Political and Economic ties.
No,take that is context of Indo-Pak scenario
Both are using weapons manufacturered in US and France,there is quite long list of Pakistani weapons of US origin and some considerable amount from France,Now what makes us think that US will like to see a country bogged down which is going to spearhead it's fight against China, and French with such massive deals they would happily provide them necessary intel on that Equipment.It's a matter of time before our F-16,Harpoons,Tps-77,AH-1's,TOW missiles,AIM-120's,Sidewinders and many more things if, not taken care would be a liability upon us in battlefield.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

MK you know many would not believe what you want to state and will say that's illogical but let's discuss a logical matter.
With current Indo-US setup see US hell bent on pleasing India to use her against China sale of cutting edge P-8,Surveillance drones,Engines,Ah-64d's and offering them F-16 and many more things is not a small development.
No,lets go back to falkland wars and we all know that,How French and US betrayed Argentineans at last moment,have a look
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...ped-britain-retake-the-falklands-7618420.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html
At that time there wasn't any special love among them except Political and Economic ties.
No,take that is context of Indo-Pak scenario
Both are using weapons manufacturered in US and France,there is quite long list of Pakistani weapons of US origin and some considerable amount from France,Now what makes us think that US will like to see a country bogged down which is going to spearhead it's fight against China, and French with such massive deals they would happily provide them necessary intel on that Equipment.It's a matter of time before our F-16,Harpoons,Tps-77,AH-1's,TOW missiles,AIM-120's,Sidewinders and many more things if, not taken care would be a liability upon us in battlefield.

I guess You think U.K. and France betrayed Nazi Germany by declaring war
after Nazi Germany attacked Poland...
Both the U.S. and France are ALLIES of the U.K.
The U.K. could have invoke NATO Chapter 5, after the attack.

An Alliance is much more important than a vendor/customer relationship.
Thus the Argentinians had no reason to expect that the U.S. or France assume a neutral position.
Betrayal is only in Your bigoted mind.

If Pakistan desires to fight India, then its relationship with China will determine
the reaction from the U.S.
If China is not involved, the U.S. will try to stop the conflict.
It is unlikely to replenish either of the parties in this case.
If China is involved, the U.S. will most likely aid India, but leave Pakistan out to dry.

 

[ashok321]

All Uncle Sam's military hardware packaged with software is Veto prone for end users.
The US always maintains the last word not only on its foreign sales but after-sales programs too.

India's tango with the US seems beautiful to watch, but couple of mis-steps and you know what.

Of the two, its not India who can pull the strings, it always will be the US - have been so.

Indo-US friendship is questionable.

Whites live for whites.
Might is right, white is right.

The US is now one of the top three arms suppliers to India, notching up sales worth $15 billion since 2007 to even dislodge Russia from the top slot for the last couple of years.

 

[Sine Nomine]

An Alliance is much more important than a vendor/customer relationship.
Thus the Argentinians had no reason to expect that the U.S. or France assume a neutral position.
Betrayal is only in bigoted mind.

well thats production of your own Jingoist mind,UK did'nt called these parties formally to take part in that war,they all helped her due to mutual political and ecnomic interests,
US signed Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance in 1947,even before NATO,but according to you honouring a treaty comes before buyer-seller relationship but that was'nt case over here.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

well thats production of your own Jingoist mind,UK did'nt called these parties formally to take part in that war,they all helped her due to mutual political and ecnomic interests,
US signed Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance in 1947,even before NATO,but according to you honouring a treaty comes before buyer-seller relationship but that was'nt case over here.

Since the Argentinians attacked first, it is not applicable - Fake News - more dishonesty.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Since the Argentinians attacked first, it is not applicable - Fake News - more dishonesty.

Oh,so much moral high ground being exercised.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Oh,so much moral high ground being exercised.

Better that, than to live in the gutter.
Not my fault that You are sloppy.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Better that, than to live in the gutter.
Not my fault that You are sloppy.

oh ho it's still better to live in gutter then trying to live on suprious land of moral high grounds,but your doltish nature is not my fault...
FAREWELL...

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

oh ho it's still better to live in gutter then trying to live on suprious land of moral high grounds,but your doltish nature is not my fault...
FAREWELL...

When in error, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout...
Now on ignore.

 

[BATMAN]

See, jet fighters do not have ignition keys, but some (F-35 included) need a security code to be launched. In the F-35’s case, those codes are only valid 24 hours, and there is a dedicated generator for those codes. Essentially, you press a button on the generator, get a code, and you can use your plane that day (this may be somewhat simplified and slightly inaccurate as it is a second-hand account, but that would be the gist of it).

I wanted to describe it the other day, but I was discouraged because of the behavior of holycows.

What you describe, sounds like a bank's security code generator systems, which comes in variety.
One you described is like: You download an app to your personal device (in this case device can be onboard/offboard computer) using personal id, you end up having your personal/unique app. connected to your device and account. Now every time you need to login, you contact certain secure site, which generate QR code on screen, which you shall scan using your personal device having personal/unique app, if all matches, than your personal device receive a numeric code, which is generated by an automated code generator SW, which you (pilot) will enter to login. In case of bank account, by default there are limits over online transactions, however you may ask for changes, but you see no difference in login process. Basically a code can have limits hidden in it, which basically are in control of your bank.

There is another commonly known tech. used by companies to restrict ''unauthentic access'' or allow ''licensed access'' to its HW/SW.
Why its needed: Since all hitech electronic HW is manufactured in China, which was designed/developed in EU/US. If there's no lock, you will soon see a Chinese/Indian version of it.
Trick is to have a mix of HW-SW key (aka-dongle) this HW key will be programmed as having unique code id (as an example: code is generated at company's head office and keys are programed subsequently).
Now when proprietary hitech HW is loaded with proprietary SW, it will not perform certain tasks and limits the performance of machine, or not perform at all, unless a matching code is written in its SW, which again can be with aid of special interface or simple keyboard, but it effectively kicks out the owner of HW of having any control over its property. This prevents ''unauthorized'' use of tech. but if I'm not in good terms with ''authorized'' user, manufacturer of HW can just declare ''authorized'' user as rouge element/state and multi billion $ HW is as good as trash.

Another common one, we all know is GPS triggered car immobilizers.

Now these are commonly known and widely used 'kill switches' we come across daily, where limit is defined by manufacturer of HW.

 

[MastanKhan]

I wanted to describe it the other day, but I was discouraged because of the behavior of holycows.

What you describe, sounds like a bank's security code generator systems, which comes in variety.
One you described is like: You download an app to your personal device (in this case device can be onboard/offboard computer) using personal id, you end up having your personal/unique app. connected to your device and account. Now every time you need to login, you contact certain secure site, which generate QR code on screen, which you shall scan using your personal device having personal/unique app, if all matches, than your personal device receive a numeric code, which is generated by an automated code generator SW, which you (pilot) will enter to login. In case of bank account, by default there are limits over online transactions, however you may ask for changes, but you see no difference in login process. Basically a code can have limits hidden in it, which basically are in control of your bank.

There is another commonly known tech. used by companies to restrict ''unauthentic access'' or allow ''licensed access'' to its HW/SW.
Why its needed: Since all hitech electronic HW is manufactured in China, which was designed/developed in EU/US. If there's no lock, you will soon see a Chinese/Indian version of it.
Trick is to have a mix of HW-SW key (aka-dongle) this HW key will be programmed as having unique code id (as an example: code is generated at company's head office and keys are programed subsequently).
Now when proprietary hitech HW is loaded with proprietary SW, it will not perform certain tasks and limits the performance of machine, or not perform at all, unless a matching code is written in its SW, which again can be with aid of special interface or simple keyboard, but it effectively kicks out the owner of HW of having any control over its property. This prevents ''unauthorized'' use of tech. but if I'm not in good terms with ''authorized'' user, manufacturer of HW can just declare ''authorized'' user as rouge element/state and multi billion $ HW is as good as trash.

Another common one, we all know is GPS triggered car immobilizers.

Now these are commonly known and widely used 'kill switches' we come across daily, where limit is defined by manufacturer of HW.

Hi,

This was an article on Quora----. And I have talked about it many a times showing different conditions of ' kill switches '.

What the writer has written is your basic kill switch---you cannot start without a code---it is the simplest of the kill switches---.

The other forms that I have discussed in the past is---engine control---fuel control---. The computer can control the fuel pump pressure---amount of fuel going into the engine---.

Rudder control---aileron control--stick control---pitch control---anything and everything that has an electric motor actuator---is connected with an electric wire---has a data link connection---has a kill switch.

 

[BATMAN]

Hi,

This was an article on Quora----. And I have talked about it many a times showing different conditions of ' kill switches '.

What the writer has written is your basic kill switch---you cannot start without a code---it is the simplest of the kill switches---.

The other forms that I have discussed in the past is---engine control---fuel control---. The computer can control the fuel pump pressure---amount of fuel going into the engine---.

Rudder control---aileron control--stick control---pitch control---anything and everything that has an electric motor actuator---is connected with an electric wire---has a data link connection---has a kill switch.

Yes Sir, I can write lengths.... because I come across these 'unauthorized access control' switches in my profession.
Irrespective, customer has fully paid and whole own the equipment, non of his engineers can put it in operation, without knowing a simple, yet complex code.

In real life, moment you sign contract with commercial companies, you are bound to their term&conditions, which is fine print made by specialist legal teams.

When we are buying defense equipment from US, senate set conditions on top of the fine print, which are based on inputs from its intel. agencies, homeland security etc.
If US manufacturer fails to comply the set conditions, he can't sell. If it sells he has to demonstrate the limits set by senate and local legal system, to the state inspectors. If buyer hacks into US HW, supplier has to have protections for that due to commercial/copy right reasons, without senate even asking for it.
I believe, control over start and shut down at will, is a minimum switch which is integrated by default.

Sorry for another lengthy post... I like to put down an example:
Pakistan India are at war and India PM run to US in middle of war, because AIM-120 are too smart for SU-30 to avoid. On the other hand, Pakistan is having an uncorrupted general at helm of the affairs, who is not responding to the calls from white house. How do we think, Pakistani general will be forced to the table of negotiations?

 

[SQ8]

If a country buys fighter jets from the US, how likely is it that the jets come installed with "backdoor" software that can disable them?

Alexandre Kouyoumdjian, Have been reading about aircraft since I could read.
Answered Mon

I once had a conversation about this with a procurement official in the French Ministry of Defence, in charge of coordinating with his British peers. He told me that the latter were rather dismayed by a recent development in their F-35 procurement process.

See, jet fighters do not have ignition keys, but some (F-35 included) need a security code to be launched. In the F-35’s case, those codes are only valid 24 hours, and there is a dedicated generator for those codes. Essentially, you press a button on the generator, get a code, and you can use your plane that day (this may be somewhat simplified and slightly inaccurate as it is a second-hand account, but that would be the gist of it).

So far, so good. The only problem is that late in the negotiation process, the American side decided that it would keep those generators and supply the British with security codes as they were required.

As you can imagine, the British were enraged at this, as it simply means that the US can basically ground the entire F-35 fleet, just by refusing to provide the security codes for that day. In effect, this means that the UK cannot launch air operations without (at least reluctant) US approval.

I would imagine that many more such security measures are in place, in the F-35 and many other weapons systems alike ".

So have I since I could read, and I had a conversation with someone who flew and commanded our F-16 sq and also with a block-62 pilot. Even our earliest block-15s had such encryption for radio and navigation- and even in the 90s pressler years the attaché provided them.

The actual restrictions are to keep the Chinese out

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

This was an article on Quora----. And I have talked about it many a times showing different conditions of ' kill switches '.

What the writer has written is your basic kill switch---you cannot start without a code---it is the simplest of the kill switches---.

The other forms that I have discussed in the past is---engine control---fuel control---. The computer can control the fuel pump pressure---amount of fuel going into the engine---.

Rudder control---aileron control--stick control---pitch control---anything and everything that has an electric motor actuator---is connected with an electric wire---has a data link connection---has a kill switch.

Mastan Sahib

Lets take advantage of your nationality, and now you could tell us about the piece of legislation
passed by Congress many years ago that make all defense equipment manufacturers
bound to ensure that the weapons could never be used against US interests.