Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[muse]

On the contrary, you will see that we will have to shed, sell, the F16 we do operate

 

[SQ8]

No need to sell them.. and no need to shed them either, just use them sparingly.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

i think f-16 is the biggest mistake PAK made to purchase

mig 29 or mirage 2000 was the best option

And who is going to sell these goodies to us? The French? -- They have refused to even sell avionics to us in anticipation of Indian order. The Russians -- an unedr secratery of Foreign Affairs Ministry came to greet our president at the airport when he went there for a visit last month.

Let us not live in a dellusional world and face the reality -- no one wants to deal with -- too many faces and complications an top of that no money.

If we can maintain and compete in the regional military balance or create space for us for say next ten years without major chance of a regional conflict, than China remains the only option if we do end up kicking uncle sam in his behind. Otherwise it would be prudent that we get the best hardware we can lay our hands on from both China and US and do whatever it takes to make sure that both them end up eating out of our hands.

Yes, that is the challenge that we face today both militarily, politcally, and geo-stratigcally. We need to devise a strategic plan to meet these and other national goals. Otherwise we will stumble from one Abbottabad, to another Mehran and knee jerk reactions on Daivs to the next Dharna.

Unfortunately, the war for Pakistan, this time around would not be fought by the genrals but deft handling by our politicans on the international and domestic front.

 

[SQ8]

Unfortunately, the war for Pakistan, this time around would not be fought by the genrals but deft handling by our politicans on the international and domestic front.

Not exactly a good omen is that?? Deft..or more likely dumb handling..
With Useless Raza Gilani denying any future permissions for various acts ...

 

[Najam Khan]

F16 is still the most loved fighter of PAF pilots, the maneuverability and performance of the a/c hold no match with other fighters before induction of JF-17. Since 1983, all the inter-sqn skill competitions were won by F16 squadrons ( No.14 only once, 9 and 11 mainly)...it was difficult for other squadrons to bridge the gap between their a/c and F16.

Back in mid 90s , ACES (Assessment of Combat Efficiency of Squadrons) become a victim of criticism...and as a result its procedure was changed. Since then, the competition is held in three sub-groups Multi role Sqn (F16),Tactical Attack (Mirage & A-5) and air superiority Sqn (F-7).Winners of each group compete for ACES Top Squadron trophy.

Now PAF has other options too, they are going further towards JF-17 and FC-20 too. The rule of F16 in PAF, has to end...definitely in next five years things will be different!

 

[ejaz007]

how many pak army have f16 in service (active) ??

Pakistan Army does not operate F-16. Pakistan Airforce operates F-16 or for that matter all air assetts are operated by air force.

PAF has around 64 F-16's. Existing F-16 32, EDA F-16 received around 14, New block 52 received 18.

 

[ejaz007]

i think f-16 is the biggest mistake PAK made to purchase

mig 29 or mirage 2000 was the best option

Right decision was made to buy additional F-16's. I doub't Mig-29 is available for Pakistan and Mirage 2000 prodcution line is closed. Buying a fighter whose production line is closed is not a wise decision. Also buying a new weapon system means opening a new inventory which is not easy and also is costly.

 

[SQ8]

F16 is still the most loved fighter of PAF pilots, the maneuverability and performance of the a/c hold no match with other fighters before induction of JF-17. Since 1983, all the inter-sqn skill competitions were won by F16 squadrons ( No.14 only once, 9 and 11 mainly)...it was difficult for other squadrons to bridge the gap between their a/c and F16.

Back in mid 90s , ACES (Assessment of Combat Efficiency of Squadrons) become a victim of criticism...and as a result its procedure was changed. Since then, the competition is held in three sub-groups Multi role Sqn (F16),Tactical Attack (Mirage & A-5) and air superiority Sqn (F-7).Winners of each group compete for ACES Top Squadron trophy.

Now PAF has other options too, they are going further towards JF-17 and FC-20 too. The rule of F16 in PAF, has to end...definitely in next five years things will be different!

Whilst Sq wise the F-16 did win..
On an individual engagement basis the F-16 has had it handed to it by some antiques as well.
Some rookie's in the F-16 found themselves in the sights of the F-6 and FT-5.
and in the recent high mark..
F-16's were regularly shot down by F-7PG's.

 

[Najam Khan]

Whilst Sq wise the F-16 did win..
On an individual engagement basis the F-16 has had it handed to it by some antiques as well.
Some rookie's in the F-16 found themselves in the sights of the F-6 and FT-5.
and in the recent high mark..
F-16's were regularly shot down by F-7PG's.

I don't know about FT-5, but F-6 was a very good air defence fighter...a PAF pilot shot down USN F-14 with it too. Mirages are no where in air combat. F-7PGs are also very maneuverable and their performance is close to F16...its not a very surprising news, because of routine DACT missions our pilots have understand the weaknesses of other fighters, also because of postings of pilots from one type to other the lessons learned by one person is shared among others ....still today its panic whenever a F16 jumps into a DACT.

 

[SQ8]

I don't know about FT-5, but F-6 was a very good air defence fighter...a PAF pilot shot down USN F-14 with it too. Mirages are no where in air combat. F-7PGs are also very maneuverable and their performance is close to F16...its not a very surprising news, because of routine DACT missions our pilots have understand the weaknesses of other fighters, also because of postings of pilots from one type to other the lessons learned by one person is shared among others ....still today its panic whenever a F16 jumps into a DACT.

The USN F-14 incident was with a mirage 5.. with the late AC Rizwanullah Khan..
He related the incident to me personally..
and to get the proof that it all happened.. there is a video of F-14 pilots on youtube.. around the same timeline.. 94-95.. where they show a placard with a profanity about Pakistan.. this is what triggered it

 

[Najam Khan]

The USN F-14 incident was with a mirage 5.. with the late AC Rizwanullah Khan..
He related the incident to me personally..
and to get the proof that it all happened.. there is a video of F-14 pilots on youtube.. around the same timeline.. 94-95.. where they show a placard with a profanity about Pakistan.. this is what triggered it

On a different note, F-6 pilot also shoot one down... Alan Warnes has narrated some part of it in his book, 'PAF 1998-2008 The new dawn'.
If iam not mistaken the pilot was F/L Jawad Saeed, later commanded 9 Sqn.

 

[SQ8]

On a different note, F-6 pilot also shoot one down... Alan Warnes has narrated some part of it in his book, 'PAF 1998-2008 The new dawn'.
If iam not mistaken the pilot was F/L Jawad Saeed, later commanded 9 Sqn.

I have the book.. but cant recall it.. F-6's have shot down F-15's in exercises.. it is possible that they achieved the same with an F-14 during exercises with the USN.
However.. the mirage| F-14 incident was no exercise.. weapons had gone hot that day.

 

[Najam Khan]

I have the book.. but cant recall it.. F-6's have shot down F-15's in exercises.. it is possible that they achieved the same with an F-14 during exercises with the USN.
However.. the mirage| F-14 incident was no exercise.. weapons had gone hot that day.

Can you post more details of the F14 incident?

I have heard from some 'old flyres' that USN a/c flew close to Pakistan's air space near Karachi(back in 90s)...their purpose was to tease PAF pilots....one day two Mirages intercepted them...Mirage No.2 lost visual of the tomcat...he decided to lock the target...which was a very offensive move, may be he forgot that locking means 'official' start of an encounter...the tomcat pilot gave full throttle,climbed straight up, and ran away.

Since then, it was all silent from their side.....i am sure the mission debrief would be a 'hot session' for both pilots.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Not exactly a good omen is that?? Deft..or more likely dumb handling..
With Useless Raza Gilani denying any future permissions for various acts ...

Exactly Santro, before we all start pointing fingers at everyone else for our problems, the fact remains that opportuties have risen in the past for Pakistan and will continue to do so in the future -- but are we prepared to make the best use of them???

 

[SQ8]

Can you post more details of the F14 incident?

I have heard from some 'old flyres' that USN a/c flew close to Pakistan's air space near Karachi(back in 90s)...their purpose was to tease PAF pilots....one day two Mirages intercepted them...Mirage No.2 lost visual of the tomcat...he decided to lock the target...which was a very offensive move, may be he forgot that locking means 'official' start of an encounter...the tomcat pilot gave full throttle,climbed straight up, and ran away.

Since then, it was all silent from their side.....i am sure the mission debrief would be a 'hot session' for both pilots.

Well.. according to AC rizwan.. the tomcat pilot was a young jock acting smart.. making close passes to the Mirages..going inverted..etc.
He said he took it for a while..till the US pilot started making moves too close for comfort..
So the next time the tomcat pilot did a showoff.. he jettisoned his tanks..and went hot on the winders..
this led to the F-14 going wildly evasive, AC rizwan said that he still had a lock on the F-14..and within that window could have taken him..
However.. after a minute or so of maneuvering both A/C were bingo.. and headed back.
Whatever it was.. it had the tomcat pilot cursing loudly on the guard channel.

Exactly Santro, before we all start pointing fingers at everyone else for our problems, the fact remains that opportuties have risen in the past for Pakistan and will continue to do so in the future -- but are we prepared to make the best use of them???

Have we ever..?
In the words of Jack sparrow uttered best for us..

We Pakistani's love opportunities; we like to wave at them as they pass by.