Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[GriffinsRule]

US is only retiring Block 30 F-16s, not many of which were built to begin with. They are keeping all Block 40 and 50 jets and upgrading them instead.

 

[Ghessan]

Air Force opens new F-16 production line for foreign military sales
By Air Force Life Cycle Management Center Public Affairs / Published May 18, 2021

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A F-16 Fighting Falcon flies during a mission at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Feb. 14, 2019. To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72 fighter aircraft at the company’s facility in Greenville, S.C. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. John Raven)

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WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFNS) --
To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72 fighter aircraft at the company’s facility in Greenville, South Carolina.

Launched on Veterans Day 2019, the line is the only production facility for F-16s in the world, opening three years after the company’s long-time F-16 line in Fort Worth, Texas, wrapped up production.

Recently, and on behalf of five foreign military partners, the Air Force awarded Lockheed Martin Corp. approximately $14 billion, to build 128 F-16s at the facility through 2026.

“This new production line is very significant,” said Col. Brian Pearson, integrated product team lead for F-16 foreign military sales, with the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center’s Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate, which is leading the effort to build and deliver the new F-16s. “There are 25 nations operating F-16s today, and they have a lot of expertise with the airframe. The line helps us meet the global demand that a number of nations have for [F-16] aircraft and gives us the additional capability to provide the aircraft to countries interested in purchasing it for the first time.”

The first F-16s are expected to roll off the production line in 2022, and production is expected to increase after the first year. The aircraft will be delivered to multiple foreign military partners, including Bahrain, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Taiwan, and others, many of whom have expressed interest beyond the first deliveries.

More aircraft are expected to be built in the upcoming years, and there are requests for F-16s under review from additional foreign military partners.

“Since the LM production line opened, AFSAC [AFLCMC’s Air Force Security Assistance and Cooperation Directorate] has seen an uptick of our partner nations requesting detailed information and requests for U.S. government sales,” said Col. Anthony Walker, International Division senior materiel leader. “We are excited about the new workload and increased opportunity to deliver airpower capabilities that strengthen international partnerships and advance national security.”

In addition to leading efforts to field new F-16s, the Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate is also modernizing 405 F-16s – operated by four partner nations – with the V-Configuration, which consists of new radar and other upgrades to make them similar to the aircraft that will come off the production line.

“F-16s are operational across the globe and are a key capability fortifying the security of our international partners,” said Brig. Gen. Dale White, Fighters and Advanced Aircraft program executive officer. “Every F-16 we equip our foreign partners with improves their ability to defend their interests and support our mutual security interests. The caliber and talent of our foreign military sales program office teams is top-notch, and their impact is felt globally. The F-16 is an enduring, highly capable compact fighter that will have a large role in many partner nations’ security for years to come.”

Air Force opens new F-16 production line for foreign military sales

To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72

www.af.mil

 

[mingle]

Air Force opens new F-16 production line for foreign military sales
By Air Force Life Cycle Management Center Public Affairs / Published May 18, 2021

PHOTO DETAILS / DOWNLOAD HI-RES 1 of 2
A F-16 Fighting Falcon flies during a mission at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Feb. 14, 2019. To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72 fighter aircraft at the company’s facility in Greenville, S.C. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. John Raven)

PRINT | E-MAIL

WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFNS) --
To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72 fighter aircraft at the company’s facility in Greenville, South Carolina.

Launched on Veterans Day 2019, the line is the only production facility for F-16s in the world, opening three years after the company’s long-time F-16 line in Fort Worth, Texas, wrapped up production.

Recently, and on behalf of five foreign military partners, the Air Force awarded Lockheed Martin Corp. approximately $14 billion, to build 128 F-16s at the facility through 2026.

“This new production line is very significant,” said Col. Brian Pearson, integrated product team lead for F-16 foreign military sales, with the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center’s Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate, which is leading the effort to build and deliver the new F-16s. “There are 25 nations operating F-16s today, and they have a lot of expertise with the airframe. The line helps us meet the global demand that a number of nations have for [F-16] aircraft and gives us the additional capability to provide the aircraft to countries interested in purchasing it for the first time.”

The first F-16s are expected to roll off the production line in 2022, and production is expected to increase after the first year. The aircraft will be delivered to multiple foreign military partners, including Bahrain, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Taiwan, and others, many of whom have expressed interest beyond the first deliveries.

More aircraft are expected to be built in the upcoming years, and there are requests for F-16s under review from additional foreign military partners.

“Since the LM production line opened, AFSAC [AFLCMC’s Air Force Security Assistance and Cooperation Directorate] has seen an uptick of our partner nations requesting detailed information and requests for U.S. government sales,” said Col. Anthony Walker, International Division senior materiel leader. “We are excited about the new workload and increased opportunity to deliver airpower capabilities that strengthen international partnerships and advance national security.”

In addition to leading efforts to field new F-16s, the Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate is also modernizing 405 F-16s – operated by four partner nations – with the V-Configuration, which consists of new radar and other upgrades to make them similar to the aircraft that will come off the production line.

“F-16s are operational across the globe and are a key capability fortifying the security of our international partners,” said Brig. Gen. Dale White, Fighters and Advanced Aircraft program executive officer. “Every F-16 we equip our foreign partners with improves their ability to defend their interests and support our mutual security interests. The caliber and talent of our foreign military sales program office teams is top-notch, and their impact is felt globally. The F-16 is an enduring, highly capable compact fighter that will have a large role in many partner nations’ security for years to come.”

Air Force opens new F-16 production line for foreign military sales

To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72

www.af.mil

Who are the new buyers??

 

[Ghessan]

Who are the new buyers??

debatable, although new production line raise eyebrows but we can't jump the ship. we also cannot base anything on developments particularly when they are just due to some circumstances and fades away with time. as things may go either way, no one can conclude a thing.

i am of the opinion US will not that easy allow a sale. if it advances, would we be ready for the compromises and/or cooperation on demand?

there may be any, they are planning to stay in the region. they are not happy with CPEC, Israel recognition, China factor.

 

[mingle]

debatable, although new production line raise eyebrows but we can't jump the ship. we also cannot base anything on developments particularly when they are just due to some circumstances and fades away with time. as things may go either way, no one can conclude a thing.

i am of the opinion US will not that easy allow a sale. if it advances, would we be ready for the compromises and/or cooperation on demand?

there may be any, they are planning to stay in the region. they are not happy with CPEC, Israel recognition, China factor.

Second line means someone put money down beacuse creating infrastructure for 2nd line will cost LM money and resources let's see I don't see any country new beacuse Indonesia is getting Rafale they are very close to agreement Africa Asia I don't see EU all moving to F35 including Poland
There are requests under review from partner nations according to article sounds interesting

 

[Ghessan]

Second line means someone put money down beacuse creating infrastructure for 2nd line will cost LM money and resources let's see I don't see any country new beacuse Indonesia is getting Rafale they are very close to agreement Africa Asia I don't see EU all moving to F35 including Poland
There are requests under review from partner nations according to article sounds interesting

very true, but put it this way, should a squadron or so make them start an other production run?

when it comes to Pakistan everything changes, they have the habit of asking too much in return and we are found guilty sometimes of acting their way.

i am also of the opinion that PAF is not short of funds but when it comes to US we are found empty pockets. it seems it is because we do not trust US in terms of major defense articles, if paid would conclude in the form of what not but the actual buy.

 

[DHSquare]

very true, but put it this way, should a squadron or so make them start an other production run?

when it comes to Pakistan everything changes, they have the habit of asking too much in return and we are found guilty sometimes of acting their way.

i am also of the opinion that PAF is not short of funds but when it comes to US we are found empty pockets. it seems it is because we do not trust US in terms of major defense articles, if paid would conclude in the form of what not but the actual buy.

And thats a long long standing irony... whch Allah knows when it will end

 

[ziaulislam]

When you dissect it further it gets even worse .

of the 73 F16 only 18 are block 52
The remaining 55 are upgraded block 15 F16s . yes they have been upgraded to block 50 but are not as capable as the block 52. The 55 F16 carry the APG66 radar which is far inferior to APG68 and the MLU F16 carry no HOBS missles . Max range of detection on APG66 is half that of APG68 and half of the numbers of targets.

This is why the 30 block 3 thunders will be far superior with Aesa radar and new generation BVRS. But these are 2 years late and first example arrive 2022.

You cant afford to get complacent just on a 1 hour skirmish which was hit and run excercise.

A fullscale war with S400 barak hundreds of mki fighters cold swamp the PAF fleet on paper at least

You would run out of fuel and missles and have broken down planes bases and infrastructure left right and centre

Lol where do you get your morning marijuana from???

For 10 years PAF employed aim120c that outclasses everything EVEN TODAY in IAF except a few rafales

In otherwords PAF 5squardons is even today superior to anything IAF operates

by 2025 surely IAF will get it two squardons but PAF had 5 squardons that outgun everything IAF had for more then a decade

Two counter these rafales..our network centric jf17 block3-pl-15& awec combo wil work(even if anticpated j10/f16v doesnt materialize)

And you know that for last 10 yrs PAF outguns IAF even in AWECs department..

So what does IAF has that PAF doesnt has..large clunky trucks(su 30, previously known as raptor of the east)

very true, but put it this way, should a squadron or so make them start an other production run?

when it comes to Pakistan everything changes, they have the habit of asking too much in return and we are found guilty sometimes of acting their way.

i am also of the opinion that PAF is not short of funds but when it comes to US we are found empty pockets. it seems it is because we do not trust US in terms of major defense articles, if paid would conclude in the form of what not but the actual buy.

Agree ...doubt it PAF will pay full price for a restriced f16

Though its shame as even today nothing beats the f16

Second line means someone put money down beacuse creating infrastructure for 2nd line will cost LM money and resources let's see I don't see any country new beacuse Indonesia is getting Rafale they are very close to agreement Africa Asia I don't see EU all moving to F35 including Poland
There are requests under review from partner nations according to article sounds interesting

F16V is and will remain popular and profitable

Its the cheapest and most capable 4.5gen fighter

Costs half as much as typhoon rafale and is as good if not better

 

[Reichmarshal]

the only way new or used F 16 will see the light of the day in PAF colors is if they come out of CSF or PAK being a major non-nato alley. other than that if u think it's coming out of our pockets then u all are sadly mistaken.

This also holds true for anything else that is procured from the u.s

 

[ghazi52]

Sleep Tight, Pakistan Air Force is Awake...!

 

[ghazi52]

Pair of F-16 block-52 Fighting Falcons assigned to No. 5 Sqn of Pakistan Air Force

 

[Talon]

A couple of reasons. Cost is certainly one as well as the availability of number of missiles as well as the flexibility in engagements two different sets of missiles provide a fighter pilot, ie radar and IR guided.
In case of Indo-Pak scenarios, fighter merge will happen most of the time imo just due to the short distances involved as well as proximity of air bases. USAF might get away with 6 AIM-120s in some very specific scenarios, but you will be hard pressed to find more than a couple of pictures with that load-out. Even with a BVR heavy config, you will see five AIM-120s and still one AIM-9.
PS I have yet to see pictures of any other AF carry 6 AMRAAMs on F-16s besides the USAF.

How is cost a reason, as we already have the missiles..we dont need to buy them?

Same for availability,we already have the missiles and more than enough.

Merge scenarios are very difficult in modern era, even in this region. You don't scramble when enemy is 10 miles out from Mushaf rather the scramble or CAP will be directed towards the target well enough on time to use amraam s.

But yes a merge can happen and just because of this "can" , 2 sidewinders are carried but that doesn't mean 6 amraam loadout isn't used.

You don't see most of the operations in pictures, you saw Mirage carrying H-4 after how many years of its service or even Aim120 wing view from the cockpit? How many times have you seen a Mirage carrying 8 mk82 bombs Or have you seen Mavericks on Paf F-16 in recent times? I can give many examples.

 

[GriffinsRule]

How is cost a reason, as we already have the missiles..we dont need to buy them?

Same for availability,we already have the missiles and more than enough.

Merge scenarios are very difficult in modern era, even in this region. You don't scramble when enemy is 10 miles out from Mushaf rather the scramble or CAP will be directed towards the target well enough on time to use amraam s.

But yes a merge can happen and just because of this "can" , 2 sidewinders are carried but that doesn't mean 6 amraam loadout isn't used.

You don't see most of the operations in pictures, you saw Mirage carrying H-4 after how many years of its service or even Aim120 wing view from the cockpit? How many times have you seen a Mirage carrying 8 mk82 bombs Or have you seen Mavericks on Paf F-16 in recent times? I can give many examples.

Cost is the reason for replacement, same as availability (talking about replacement for spent missiles). In peacetime, you are burning their life by carrying more than necessary while not utilizing or discarding AIM-9Ls for no reason. In war, we definitely don't have enough. It is not like we will have a venue to replace them if we were to use up all or most of them in a war scenario (keeping in mind the low % of a hit probability for BVRs).

Also merge scenarios are not difficult at all in the modern era especially given our geographically close enemy, and India and Pakistan are not in that bracket technology wise anyways. Merges will happen most of the time.

As for your Maverick example, at least we have seen them on F-16s, from the 1980s to the 2000s. Have never seen 6 AMRAAMs on any F-16 of any country (besides the USAF). So while possible, I find the loadout highly unlikely.

Also, even in the US scenario, they have far greater ISR platforms and better versions of the missiles, and their potential enemy (China) has to fly quiet a distance usually to get to them so with early warning as well as longer ranged missiles such a load out might even be more use in a tactical situation for them.

So I stand by my assertion that we will not see this loadout on PAF F-16s.

 

[Talon]

Cost is the reason for replacement, same as availability (talking about replacement for spent missiles). In peacetime, you are burning their life by carrying more than necessary while not utilizing or discarding AIM-9Ls for no reason. In war, we definitely don't have enough. It is not like we will have a venue to replace them if we were to use up all or most of them in a war scenario (keeping in mind the low % of a hit probability for BVRs).

Also merge scenarios are not difficult at all in the modern era especially given our geographically close enemy, and India and Pakistan are not in that bracket technology wise anyways. Merges will happen most of the time.

As for your Maverick example, at least we have seen them on F-16s, from the 1980s to the 2000s. Have never seen 6 AMRAAMs on any F-16 of any country (besides the USAF). So while possible, I find the loadout highly unlikely.

Also, even in the US scenario, they have far greater ISR platforms and better versions of the missiles, and their potential enemy (China) has to fly quiet a distance usually to get to them so with early warning as well as longer ranged missiles such a load out might even be more use in a tactical situation for them.

So I stand by my assertion that we will not see this loadout on PAF F-16s.

Ok so you mostly repeated what you said in your last comment even though I answered every part of it.

We aren't talking about using them..rather carrying them. So you are asserting the pilot should go for a merge just because aim-9 ko zung na lag jay? We wont have a long conventional war,very unlikely. For stand off, the current stock is enough. What? Low % hit? Where are you getting your facts from boy? We fired two Aim120s in 2019 and both of them hit their targets. You call this low hit %?

I have already answered that merge scenario, dont know why you quoted same statement again.

Out of 4 examples I quoted, you answered to only 1. Tells me you are trying to make this discussion into an argument of I made a statement and I won't back out no matter what. Look, I am not commenting here to win the discussion. I was just stating 6 aim 120c loadout is possible, if you haven't seen it then that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Why you keeping quoting USAF? Did I mention it even once?

Anyways, you have made up your mind of paf not carrying 6 aim120s and are turning this into an argument so I am out. If you can't support your stance with proper examples or facts and will just stand on if I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist then I would like to be Mastan Khan for once and say " Kid, not an intelligent comment "

Regards

 

[ghazi52]