Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[hj786]

I could swear that F-16 could be modified for Hose-and-Drogue...

You must be thinking of the USN F/A-18. Those use hose/drogue. F-16 has a little door on it's back which the boom must connect to.

Blain2, can't the F-16's fuel system just keep sucking the fuel out of the probe-equipped droptank while it is being refuelled and deposit it in the other internal/external tanks until they are full? PAF should use engineering to solve this problem rather than money IMO. If it can be done, surely it's a lot cheaper than buying yet another jet platform.

According to this article: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.aviation.military.naval/2006-06/msg00184.html
The advantages of a boom refueler - very high pressure/high speed refuelling - are lost on small fighter jets cos only large aircraft like bombers can take fuel at the highest speeds a boom refueller can deliver - fighters can't, so they may as well just use hose/drogue.

 

[x_man]

Blain2, can't the F-16's fuel system just keep sucking the fuel out of the probe-equipped droptank while it is being refuelled and deposit it in the other internal/external tanks until they are full? PAF should use engineering to solve this problem rather than money IMO. If it can be done, surely it's a lot cheaper than buying yet another jet platform.

Before Blain’s reply, I will give a little input. If I understand correctly, you are suggesting fitting a probe in a drop tank?? Well, it’s not possible for many reasons. In any air combat situation, the drop tanks are always the first casualty. These are immediately jettisoned by pilot to reduce load penalties and to enhance the manoeuvrability envelop. So as per your suggestion, with drops gone, the refuelling capability will also go: so back to square one...

In any aircraft, aerial refulling is done thru a single point refulling...E.g. all the internal and external tanks of F-16 are refuelled from a single point on its fuselage rear of canopy. In each tank there are baffles, check valves and non-return valves that provide safety against the reverse flow of fuel …Once flying in normal conditions, the non return / check valves make sure that fuel travels in only one direction….Any tempering with the system can result in fuel line cavitations or blocking and results can be disastrous…

Also, aircrafts fuel system is very critically designed to ensure that all the time it remains with its CG limits….Any reverse flow or imbalance in one tank will shift the CG fore or aft and making aircraft drastically unstable and difficult to control…

Your suggestion is quite interesting but it will demand a major design change in the whole fuel system of aircraft which I don’t think that PAF has such expertise or anyone in airforce will approve of such a major mod…..Also, the fuel system is associated with lot of other systems and will require further mods in other systems too….Only manufacturer can approve such mods and I am sure if it was worth trying to, they must had tested it by now….

 

[hj786]

Before Blain’s reply, I will give a little input. If I understand correctly, you are suggesting fitting a probe in a drop tank?? Well, it’s not possible for many reasons. In any air combat situation, the drop tanks are always the first casualty. These are immediately jettisoned by pilot to reduce load penalties and to enhance the manoeuvrability envelop. So as per your suggestion, with drops gone, the refuelling capability will also go: so back to square one...

In any aircraft, aerial refulling is done thru a single point refulling...E.g. all the internal and external tanks of F-16 are refuelled from a single point on its fuselage rear of canopy. In each tank there are baffles, check valves and non-return valves that provide safety against the reverse flow of fuel …Once flying in normal conditions, the non return / check valves make sure that fuel travels in only one direction….Any tempering with the system can result in fuel line cavitations or blocking and results can be disastrous…

Also, aircrafts fuel system is very critically designed to ensure that all the time it remains with its CG limits….Any reverse flow or imbalance in one tank will shift the CG fore or aft and making aircraft drastically unstable and difficult to control…

Your suggestion is quite interesting but it will demand a major design change in the whole fuel system of aircraft which I don’t think that PAF has such expertise or anyone in airforce will approve of such a major mod…..Also, the fuel system is associated with lot of other systems and will require further mods in other systems too….Only manufacturer can approve such mods and I am sure if it was worth trying to, they must had tested it by now….

Thank you for your input sir.
I thought that for a CAP mission where loitering time is needed and droptanks would not normally be jettisoned, the concept may be viable. I was also assuming that PAF's F-16s would only be used as an AMRAAM launching platform - no need to get close-in, no need to jettison droptanks.

I thought about all the fuel control valves and so on - I have been in the Avro Vulcan cockpit and was shown a panel of switches that I was told were just for the fuel tanks (there must have been at least 20, I think 6 or so for each wing and more for fuselage tanks), but I was sure I read about the israeli airforce doing something like this with drop tanks on some other forum.

Being able to see the probe from the canopy is also necessary I guess, the probe coming from the droptank would have to be pretty long to be in the view of the pilot.

Never mind, I guess a boom refueller won't be such a big deal - its only one more platform for 80-odd F-16s.

 

[nitetrogen70]

yo guys check this out lol YouTube - airplane coming out of water

 

[blain2]

An F-15 is superimposed on top of a SLCM. Bogus.

 

[shehbazi2001]

An F-15 is superimposed on top of a SLCM. Bogus.

I think its an SLBM because apart from UGM-109 Sub-launched Tomahawak, there are not much land-attack cruise missiles that are launched from submarine.

 

[jupiter2007]

Pakistan should be getting more surplus F-16a/b from Davis-Monthan AFB surplus storage.
Davis-Monthan AFB: surplus F-16s in storage on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

[hj786]

Had another idea.

Remove the F-16's 20mm gatling cannon, fit an extendable probe there. The probe can extend through the gun port and looking at the position of the gun, the probe system will be within reach of the fuel system's boom-refuelling connection point. Just connect them up, no need for a boom-refueller!

Of course, the problem is you either have no gun or you fit a gun pod to an external hardpoint.
But the way I see it, they shouldn't use expensive F-16s as dog-fighters anyway. Use them as beyond-visual range AMRAAM launching platforms and let JF-17s go close-in with infra-red seeking missiles - JF-17's are far more expendable than F-16s, PAF can replace them by simply building a few more. Therefore, the F-16s wouldn't really need guns as they aren't gonna go in close very often and if they do, they have sidewinders and JHMCS. If they still need guns, use a gun pod - F-16 has no shortage of hardpoints if it is being refuelled in-flight.

Howzat?

 

[owais.usmani]

Man you need to be at Lockheed Martin.

 

[hj786]

Man you need to be at Lockheed Martin.

Dude this is just a logical common-sense solution to the problem! Common sense is the 2nd best way to solve problems. The best way is lateral thinking, but I'm not so good at that lol.
Lots of people will have thought of this and I have no doubt the above solution would have been implemented if there were no problems with the idea.

What problems can you guys see with my solution?

The mounting points of the gun will be very strong to support the recoil when firing, so they will be strong enough to support an extendable refuelling probe.
The aerodynamics shouldnt be a problem, an IFR probe is probably more aerodynamic that 6 gun barrels anyway.

Only problem I can see is that it might be cheaper to buy a boom-refueller than implement this, but I don't think so - how hard can it be to swap a huge gun for an IFR probe?

 

[owais.usmani]

That was just a light hearted comment, don't take it seriously. I was not and cannot make fun of you people, you have much more knowledge than I do.

 

[HAIDER]

Its coming to Pak...

 

[BATMAN]

Dude this is just a logical common-sense solution to the problem! Common sense is the 2nd best way to solve problems. The best way is lateral thinking, but I'm not so good at that lol.

You are doing just fine... It is a quality to look for out of box and inovative solutions.

Ideas are the mother of invention.

 

[hj786]

That was just a light hearted comment, don't take it seriously. I was not and cannot make fun of you people, you have much more knowledge than I do.

Bro I didn't take any offence! My dream is to work at someplace like Lockheed Martin (hopefully a Pakistani version of LM in the future lol.)

HAIDER - Yup! (except PAF's aircraft will not have the squareish spine I think, so more like this one: http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/chriswr450/F-16BLK52Flight093_resize.jpg but with the same colours as PAF's old F-16s.) Here is a good video: YouTube - Lockheed Martin F-16 Promo

 

[PAFAce]

My dream is to work at someplace like Lockheed Martin

Working for LM is no big deal. You have to be an American citizen, have decent grades at a decent university and show that you are passionate about the aerospace and defence industries. I got an interview with them last year, but as a Canadian citizen I was not eligible for their government security clearances, so no job. I ended up interning with the Atomic Energy of Canada Limited instead.

After graduation, if I can't join the PAF, I'll want to work at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex or something related. I am originally from Wah, so I could also try the POF.

Sorry for going off topic a little bit, but I just wanted to let you know that LM is not the end of the world. Inshallah you will find something even better.