Pakistan demands latest military hardware from UK

[muse]

I hope you start one thread on discussing this aspect of Diplomacy and Deterrence.[/B]

Kindly start this in Jnr. TT club.

Ok, I put it up for discussion on Jr TTin the seniors forum

 

[Mav3rick]

Sir I am strong supporter of using Economy and our population size as a weapon.

With largest number of Young population, Growing Middle Class, Increasing Education, Largest English speaking population, Millions of Engineers, Doctors etc, Biggest Entertainment industry etc. provides a great leverage to India to use it for any problem we face from external or internal sources.

In a world of 7 billion people, with 1.2 billion people in just one Country, I think we can use this for faster growth and pushing hostile countries for peace by indirectly forcing our Trading Partners to deliver the peace.

I hope you start one thread on discussing this aspect of Diplomacy and Deterrence.

Kindly start this in Jnr. TT club.

Krait, don't you think that India is more dependent on that trade then vice versa as there are other avenues that can be examined and utilized incase India does something that stupid to jeopardise her economic growth? I, personally, think that the strength, as per your consideration, is actually a weakness. There are many other countries that can offer the same terms to the international community, perhaps even better, then India.

 

[Tridibans]

well, in just a matter of few years (and despite wild accusations in your sensationalist media as well as even western media) we still got out Mar-1s, Saabs AWACS, we're still going to be getting Orions (to replace the damaged ones), we still got/are getting the newer block F-solas (which i call "bonus aircrafts"); our diplomats may not be highly saught after but somehow they still seem to get a lot of things done especially on the defence front

in fact if anything, it is your diplomacy that has failed....failed to get us isolated (despite your desperation) and failed to stop or hinder any arms deals

now of course on MMRCA, countries were lining up like crazy b/c it was a lucrative prospect...now that indian have decided who to award contract to you cant really use the MMRCA-card anymore.

tight budgets has always been a reality for the Services but yet despite that, we still procure just what we need; bear essentials to maintain a conventional fighting force...where and when we can be more self reliant (e.g. armor, air weapons, infantry weapons, aircraft parts etc.) we are. This has also helped Pakistan become South Asia's largest arms exporter.

How can we completely isolate a country with 180m people and nuclear weapons? Aren't you underestimating your own strengths? Thing is , I would say Indian diplomats (not politicians, but external affairs babus) have done an excellent job in courting the French (MMRCA), US (recent military hardware), USSR/Russia (no brainer) and UK (till now) away from the Pakistani military market in recent times. As far as SAAB and others are concerned, you see, we haven't had the opportunity to work with Sweden on such a scale till now.

 

[KRAIT]

Krait, don't you think that India is more dependent on that trade then vice versa as there are other avenues that can be examined and utilized incase India does something that stupid to jeopardise her economic growth? I, personally, think that the strength, as per your consideration, is actually a weakness. There are many other countries that can offer the same terms to the international community, perhaps even better, then India.

Not really. See, India only has problems with China on border disputes which we are trying to solve.

As for US and EU, they need Economic growth very badly now. same is in case of Russia. Look at present Economic Conditions.
Unemployment rate is at 11 % in UK alone. japan, which is third largest economy in the world is also facing tough economic times. It also needs India's support in not only economic but also Strategic purposes as China is a big nation to handle alone.

KSA already trying to woo India and it is evident from Abu Jundal handover for CBM and increasing trust, wants to invest in Indian infrastructure sector as they want to diversify their economy in many fields instead being Only Oil based economy.

Read this

Retail global biggies make a beeline for India - The Times of India

Now, the companies are from Europe. FDI in India is pushed too hard by many countries. Obama is trying very hard for it. Reason is that the middle class of India loves these foreign products. Metro cities and state capitals are increasing. I live in Jaipur and I have seen how much it changed. Metro train will start in this year, constructed quite fast.

Now companies like Bombardier etc. are also focusing on selling locomotives to Indian Railway as our factories are full with orders and demand is quite high. They have manufacturing plant in Savli, India. Providing jobs to Indians.

After Delhi metro, Bombardier looks to supplying railways | Business Standard

Russia also needs cash so its giving Oil for Loans to China. It wants Nuclear plants, Military contract with India. Look at Fraench President who will be visiting for billions worth of deals.

If you don't know, when India gave orders for C-17 Globemaster and C-130 J to US, it saved thousands of jobs that comapnies were going to cut. Not just Boeing but also the companies that provide parts and systems to Boeing.

And all these companies are getting into JV with Indian companies, which is not only good for economy but most important, Knowledge Transfer.

Also, Hyundai in India is going to reduce number of Koreans and replace them with Indians in the company. So this trend will also follow as Indian engineers and professionals are paid less wrt foreign engineers.

This will not only boost our domestic industry but will provide necessary R&D facilities and Capital for Innovation.


Look at Economy, nothing else.

Quid Pro Quo. Foreign Policy of India is delivering results.

 

[Mav3rick]

Not really. See, India only has problems with China on border disputes which we are trying to solve.

As for US and EU, they need Economic growth very badly now. same is in case of Russia. Look at present Economic Conditions.
Unemployment rate is at 11 % in UK alone. japan, which is third largest economy in the world is also facing tough economic times. It also needs India's support in not only economic but also Strategic purposes as China is a big nation to handle alone.

KSA already trying to woo India and it is evident from Abu Jundal handover for CBM and increasing trust, wants to invest in Indian infrastructure sector as they want to diversify their economy in many fields instead being Only Oil based economy.

Read this

Retail global biggies make a beeline for India - The Times of India

Now, the companies are from Europe. FDI in India is pushed too hard by many countries. Obama is trying very hard for it. Reason is that the middle class of India loves these foreign products. Metro cities and state capitals are increasing. I live in Jaipur and I have seen how much it changed. Metro train will start in this year, constructed quite fast.

Now companies like Bombardier etc. are also focusing on selling locomotives to Indian Railway as our factories are full with orders and demand is quite high. They have manufacturing plant in Savli, India. Providing jobs to Indians.

After Delhi metro, Bombardier looks to supplying railways | Business Standard

Russia also needs cash so its giving Oil for Loans to China. It wants Nuclear plants, Military contract with India. Look at Fraench President who will be visiting for billions worth of deals.

If you don't know, when India gave orders for C-17 Globemaster and C-130 J to US, it saved thousands of jobs that comapnies were going to cut. Not just Boeing but also the companies that provide parts and systems to Boeing.

And all these companies are getting into JV with Indian companies, which is not only good for economy but most important, Knowledge Transfer.

Also, Hyundai in India is going to reduce number of Koreans and replace them with Indians in the company. So this trend will also follow as Indian engineers and professionals are paid less wrt foreign engineers.

This will not only boost our domestic industry but will provide necessary R&D facilities and Capital for Innovation.


Look at Economy, nothing else.

Quid Pro Quo. Foreign Policy of India is delivering results.

But all that is exactly my point too, India needs all those trades just as much as the other countries so not really in a position to dictate terms. For example, if India cannot cater for her own needs internally in the locomotive industry then she has no other choice then to look at external suppliers......right??

 

[Paan Singh]

Ok, I put it up for discussion on Jr TTin the seniors forum

please remove it from senior cafe

i was about to post but cudnt do so

 

[KRAIT]

But all that is exactly my point too, India needs all those trades just as much as the other countries so not really in a position to dictate terms. For example, if India cannot cater for her own needs internally in the locomotive industry then she has no other choice then to look at external suppliers......right??

For locomotives, 3 companies are competing. For Choppers, MMRCA, many companies competed. For new AIP based submarines, France, Russia and Germany may compete.

Its all about competition. One can use competition of these developed nations for our own benefit. All wants a piece of pie and wants larger piece than others.

But you are right. It does makes us dependent. But India is focusing on Joint Ventures. This will show results in a decade. Long term planning kicks in here.

 

[Paan Singh]

Sir, I am worried about my country and Afghanistan. Don't know what will happen after 2014 pull-out.

I personally think that India should ask US, China, Russia, France and UK, all to make pressure on Pakistan that no terrorist is sent to our country otherwise we will cancel the deals with whom who don't support us and pressurize Pakistan.

India should use its economy as deterrent. All Five Nations of SC has billions of dollars worth deals with India and all want to increase trade with us. We should start using Economy as Weapon even more.

Dont forget that they have done everything to solve that issue.

1)They started wars
2)They sent militants.
3)They used west when west was with them

but still despite of all these things,nothing happened.

and in last,they had to come for dialogue and india dont do it due to pressure by military.

so any kind of solution or even support by militants can be done if you have some big daddy sitting on you and they dont have any.

In kargil even,china asked them to stop this non sense,so your point that they will use terrorist cant be implemented at all.

One more thing is,U.S wont withdraw completely and neither everything will be changed after 2014.Let 2014 come and see.

 

[muse]

please remove it from senior cafe

i was about to post but cudnt do so

No problem you can post in that thread

 

[KRAIT]

@Abu Zolfiqar Did you say our Diplomacy failed ?


Posting again for you. Read the previous posts before replying.


UK to bring Afghan equipment home via Uzbekistan

LONDON: Britain’s Defense Secretary Philip Hammond said the UK has struck a deal with Uzbekistan to help bring back 4 billion pounds ($6.2 billion) of equipment from Afghanistan as operations drawn down.

Britain’s government has said UK troop numbers in Afghanistan will fall from around 9,000 currently to about 5,200 by the end of 2013.

Hammond told lawmakers Wednesday that the UK has struck a deal with Uzbekistan because the only current transit route for equipment _ through Pakistan _ ”would be hard pressed to meet the capacity demands” of the drawdown, which for Britain involves bringing home about 2,500 vehicles and 6,500 storage containers.

Under the arrangement, some 450,000 pounds ($699,700) of surplus equipment _ Land Rover spare parts and Leyland DAF trucks _ will be ”gifted” to Uzbekistan.

UK to bring Afghan equipment home via Uzbekistan | World | DAWN.COM

Now tell me why would they send it from different route and gift it to Uzbekistan.

 

[Paan Singh]

@KRAIT

as per Abu julfikar,Successful diplomacy means if india manages to stop them trading from all 200+ nations .

Even U.S cant do so.

 

[Awesome]

Gotta love it - Pakistan "Demands"....Clueless idiots

I know, that's the first thing that struck me too...

[Gabbar]Yeh EFT mujhe de de thakurrr![/gabbar]

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

UK needs money. Look at their condition. Would they want their defence industries to close down ? Its a good idea to make them think.

do we have money . that's the question .........

 

[Donatello]

@muse Sir, Corruption slows the economic growth, Security failure stagnates and then reduce growth rate.

Point is that any country can grow even with Corruption. China and India are examples in front of Pakistan. But without security, no thing can improve.

People here appreciate Weapons not Wits. Security can be achieved only if their is social-economic security and vice versa. Pakistan doesn't need these weapons in these economic tough times, they need to invest in damage control and listen to grievances of the people in troubled region.

For stopping terrorism, Pakistan first needs to reduce terrorist attacks and unemployment, poverty in the troubled region. Invest in education. Give the youth an alternative of income source and a different goal for life other than religion.

Pakistan has enough weapons to kill every single terrorist in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It will cause loss of lives and property. But, its happening anyway.

Pakistan should now cooperate with Afghanistan, China and India to help them out economically assuring them that they will get rid of nemesis of terrorism in this region which is blocking our growth.

India don't want war with Pakistan. Afghanistan don't want war with Pakistan. China wants stable region for its economic growth.

It has come to Survival of the nation. People just blame Govt. here but no one raises questions against the Armed Forces. If Armed forces can't provide security, how will economic growth will happen.

People want a different govt. but if security situation worsens, a good govt. can't do everything.

As for China factor, they are good businessmen. They need Pakistan for strategic purpose but India for economic purpose. Even they have given up hopes from Pakistan and now extending hands to India for much better relations. God knows what will happen if China limits its support to Pakistan.

You say Pakistan should cooperate with India? That is absolute bullshit, considering the fact that every single effort to peace has been put forth by Pakistan, and everytime due to some propaganda, India snubbed it. Recent example being that of LOC incident where India has not even told the entire story.


Rest aside, if India is as strong as it seems, then it should be the one offering the peace hand. Rather it seems Indians have been stuck in their so far newly achieved ego of economic growth.

What India forgets is, that whatever economic situation Pakistan is in, cannot change the fact where it lies geo-strategically. Without good relations with Pakistan, India can kiss good bye to it's Central Asia policy. India is not ideally located, but Pakistan is. Pakistanis just don't know how to use this as a trump card.

I had to post this here as i can't post in the thread started by Muse.

2014 NATO pullout will see lots of things happening. It is up to India to be a bully or play nice.

Sir I am strong supporter of using Economy and our population size as a weapon.

With largest number of Young population, Growing Middle Class, Increasing Education, Largest English speaking population, Millions of Engineers, Doctors etc, Biggest Entertainment industry etc. provides a great leverage to India to use it for any problem we face from external or internal sources.

In a world of 7 billion people, with 1.2 billion people in just one Country, I think we can use this for faster growth and pushing hostile countries for peace by indirectly forcing our Trading Partners to deliver the peace.

I hope you start one thread on discussing this aspect of Diplomacy and Deterrence.

Kindly start this in Jnr. TT club.

India and actually, entire South Asia, is producing engineers '3 Idiots' style.

Quantity doesn't mean quality.

Is it surprising that small nations like Japan and Germany can output more industrial value than a large nation like India?

Hint: Their education.

 

[KRAIT]

@Donatello We can play blame game as much as we like. I am not getting into ego game. I just put forward the idea of using economy.

As for Japan and Germany, they have advance research labs and funding. Look at Indians and Chinese in US universities. You will see the students are quite good in quality but they lack resources. I know since I am in Research. How hard is to implement and work on advance subject.

Japan and Germany has decades old base of Research aptitude and Professionalism.