PAKISTAN - CRADLE OF CIVILIZATIONS

[Rusty]

Isn't it what we are debating? In history the border of a country keep changing and at the time of IVC they happened to be living on the banks of Indus river. After abandoning their cities they just dispersed to greener pastures.... most likely other river banks or near water bodies. We claim IVC because of our roots based on Hinduism which is based on history. You are claiming based on boundary only. If Pakistan was not partitioned in 1947 we would have claim to both history and border as well.

An Indus Valley seal
showing the
"pashupati" figure.

At the end of the day we have no concrete evidence of what really happened to the IVC. Anyone claiming to know exactly what happened is a fool and a liar.
All we know is that it existed, declined and now 90% of it's area is in a country called Pakistan. Based on this Pakistan claim's it. Indians can claim it too, I don't have a problem with that but don't try to claim that it exclusively belongs to you because Pakistan is now Muslim.

 

[Icewolf]

Funny how the Indians claim IVC is not Pakistani history becuase Pakistan was created in 1947...

Does it ALSO means Ganges & Hindu cuture is not Indian because India was also created in 1947?

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Funny how the Indians claim IVC is not Pakistani history becuase Pakistan was created in 1947...

Does it ALSO means Ganges & Hindu cuture is not Indian because India was also created in 1947?

Any body claiming exclusivity is ignorant, it's a shared culture and ancestry.

 

[my2cents]

The center of this civilization and it's most magnificent cities - and achievements are in Pakistan - so belongs to us, regarding it's links to Hinduism - negative, buried their dead, ate beef, no temples or idols have been found.

IVC has three different phases(pre, mature and late Harappan phases) and the earliest of these phases have been discovered near Rajasthan and it predates Mohenjadaro by 2000 years. IVC extends from Indus in Pakistan to Gujarat and even to Haryana in India.


But the six samples discovered at Bhirrana include relatively advanced pottery, known as “hakra ware,” that suggests the ancient Harappan civilization began much earlier than previously believed — and that its epicenter lies in the Indian states of Harayana and Rajasthan, rather than across the border.

Archaeologists confirm Indian civilization is 2000 years older than previously believed | GlobalPost

 

[Rafi]

IVC has three different phases(pre, mature and late Harappan phases) and the earliest of these phases have been discovered near Rajasthan and it predates Mohenjadaro by 2000 years. IVC extends from Indus in Pakistan to Gujarat and even to Haryana in India.


But the six samples discovered at Bhirrana include relatively advanced pottery, known as “hakra ware,” that suggests the ancient Harappan civilization began much earlier than previously believed — and that its epicenter lies in the Indian states of Harayana and Rajasthan, rather than across the border.

Archaeologists confirm Indian civilization is 2000 years older than previously believed | GlobalPost

indian revisionist propaganda - it is on our land, and it belongs to us, you claim whatever you find on your land.

 

[my2cents]

At the end of the day we have no concrete evidence of what really happened to the IVC. Anyone claiming to know exactly what happened is a fool and a liar.
All we know is that it existed, declined and now 90% of it's area is in a country called Pakistan. Based on this Pakistan claim's it. Indians can claim it too, I don't have a problem with that but don't try to claim that it exclusively belongs to you because Pakistan is now Muslim.

I am OK with shared history and it should be because IVC extends the border on both sides. I was just objecting to some Pakistani posters who were denying the linkage to our Indian culture. Some of the IVC customs like burying bodies and eating beef may have changed over a period of time in Hinduism. You are right about that we do not know much about IVC yet.

 

[American Pakistani]

Answer that with proper logic(if you have any ), I read one of your comment where you said other Pakistanis abuse Muhajirs as Hindustani.

Yes! & beleive me it is like a curse for us...BTW what this has to do with topic?

You say Indians can't claim IVC or Taxila University but very next moment declare Raja Dahir as Indian king.

Raja Dahir was not the king of whole Pakistan(or in simple whole IVC) & he was Hindu exteremist.

 

[American Pakistani]

That's funny, you chaps follow Mr. Jinnah's claim that Islam constituted a separate nation regardless of where you were. It obviously follows that anything non-Islamic is not part of your nation. Trying to have it both ways, eh?

Yes Pakistanis follow Sir Mohammad Ali Jinnah(R.A) but he never said that Pakistan is not the owner of IVC. Plus IVC is another way to prove Pakistan in its current form was always one country & never part of india. Now anything which proves Pakistan was never part of india & Pakistan was one country in this current form makes indians insecure.

At the end of the day we have no concrete evidence of what really happened to the IVC. Anyone claiming to know exactly what happened is a fool and a liar.
All we know is that it existed, declined and now 90% of it's area is in a country called Pakistan. Based on this Pakistan claim's it. Indians can claim it too, I don't have a problem with that but don't try to claim that it exclusively belongs to you because Pakistan is now Muslim.

By your logic even Afghanistan & Iran should start claiming this IVC too...?

 

[Bang Galore]

Yes Pakistanis follow Sir Mohammad Ali Jinnah(R.A) but he never said that Pakistan is not the owner of IVC. Plus IVC is another way to prove Pakistan in its current form was always one country & never part of india. Now anything which proves Pakistan was never part of india & Pakistan was one country in this current form makes indians insecure.

No logic. If Muslims were a separate nation simply because they were Muslims, then anything non-Muslim was not theirs. A good example would be Raja Dahir. He is a villain to many Pakistanis simply because of his not being a Muslim. You can have any opinion on the IVC, I'm not in the least suggesting anything different. I was pointing out the difference between Mr. Jinnah's argument & yours. If you wish to claim Tipu Sultan among others, then the logic you are applying is Mr. Jinnah's theory of Muslims constituting a nation. It automatically then follows (with the argument advanced) that anything non-Muslim including the IVC etc has but a ticketing rights sort of connection to you, nothing more.

 

[KRAIT]

@American Pakistani Dude, just to satisfy ego, don't twist history. What was the language of IVC. What practices you still follow from IVC ?

Because last time I checked Indian Hindus still follow Sanskrit, Vedas, Customs, Ayurveda, Festivals. etc. for thousands of years living in this sub-continent for so many centuries. Still following Ganges Valley Civilization.

You claiming Pakistan as IVC based nation. Where is the connection with IVC characteristics and Pakistan ?

FYI, there are some part of IVC in India too. Does that mean you have claim over that territory ?

And if Pakistan was IVC nation, then why did you wanted East Pakistan because that region wasn't in IVC.

Even your religion didn't start in this region. It was brought by few travelers whereas we were inventing, upgrading, mass producing and exporting our own religion.

Whether it was Hinduism or Buddhism.

 

[jbond197]

A nation built on the premise of Muslim identity trying to steal the non-Muslim identity belonging to the ones they got divorced from. That sounds weird!! Is it another death of two nation theory? Funny enough they could not live with them in present but are dying now to live their past..

 

[muse]

A nation built on the premise of Muslim identity trying to steal the non-Muslim identity belonging to the ones they got divorced from. That sounds weird!! Is it another death of two nation theory? Funny enough they could not live with them in present but are dying now to live their past..

Hmm, not really - I don't anybody in Pakistan is looking to live their past (possibly some Arabs past, but not their own) - What is beginning to happen is that more and more people are taking sides - Taking sides? what are on about? Taking sides in a culture war forced on them by Islamists - By acknowledging and celebrating one of it's past heritages, they want to affirm or make some statement about the depth of their cultural heritages and therefore about themselves even as they deny space to the Islamist premise,

Now as for the bit about nation built on Muslim identity "Stealing" the non-Muslim identity from those they are divorced from - that's not just inflammatory, it's down right stupid - the so called "identity" you affirm now, is certainly not the identity of the heritage in question, "secular" India's connection with it's any heritages is best negotiated, not asserted.

 

[Paan Singh]

Funny how the Indians claim IVC is not Pakistani history becuase Pakistan was created in 1947...

Does it ALSO means Ganges & Hindu cuture is not Indian because India was also created in 1947?

India is just a name given by british to us but bharat have been here from thousand of years and unlike you,our history dont start from 1947.
so dont change facts by name "india".

 

[Paan Singh]

@Pakistanis.

Bharata (Sanskrit: भरत, Bharata, means "The Cherished") or Bha = Bhava (Expression), Ra = Raga (Melody Notes) and Ta = Tala (Rythmic pattern). Bharata[1][2] was a legendary emperor of India, and is referred to in Hindu and Jain theology. He was son of King Dushyanta of Hastinapura and Queen Śakuntalā and thus a descendant of the Lunar Dynasty of the Kshatriya Varna. Bharata had conquered all of Greater India, uniting it into a single political entity which was named after him as "Bhāratavarṣa".
According to ancient Indian epic legend of the Mahabharata as well as the numerous puranas and diverse Indian history, Bharat Empire included the whole territory of the Indian subcontinent, including parts of present day Pakistan, Afghanistan, China, Iran, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia,[3] Turkmenistan, North-west Tibet, Nepal and Bangladesh.
This represented as the ideal sample of great empires, which was dominated by harmony, wealth and prosperity.
There are many references to "Bharata Chakravarti" in the sacred Jain texts.[citation needed] He conquered all of the earth and the worlds above and reached the top of "Meru" or "Sumeru" mountain (the center of the world and tallest mountain) and placed a flag. But upon reaching the top he saw numerous such flags of world conquerors before him. This made him feel very insignificant and he took the diksha and attained nirvana.
Bhārat (along with India) is the official English name of Republic of India and Bhārata Gaṇarājya is the official Sanskrit name of the country.

This is wat we indians know about history which dont start from 1947.
Where as 47 is just remembered as day where bharat was divided and land was given where so called muslims could stay and live as they demanded but it does not mean that mother india too born on that day

 

[muse]

@Pakistanis.
Where as 47 is just remembered as day where bharat was divided and land was given where so called muslims could stay and live as they demanded but it does not mean that mother india too born on that day

So secular India is just so much rubbish sold to foreigners, the truth is that these so called Muslims, never were Indian, how do they be, they were Muslims - And the land they lived on was not theirs, they were merely there on sufferance of non-Muslims??

More Pakistanis should be made aware of this -- don't you agree?