Pakistan Could Have Technical Edge on Indian Air Force Despite Rafale Jet Deployment: IAF Veteran

[kursed]

The crowd that continuously lamented about Su-30MKI RAM coatings, cobra maneuvers and BARS radars allowing them to look first, shoot first is back - except the 'Asian Raptor ' stands replaced by the Rafale. LOL! You lot are predictable as hell. Just a bunch of fanboys, who literally believe that modern air combat is like the video game on your Playstation. =)

 

[Baba_Yaga]

These indians have such a big bamboo sticking up their arse that they cannot even admit to be completely humiliated, with their planes shot out of the sky like flies, and their pilot dragged through mud like animals. Such shameless creatures that now they talk about Rafale and meteor missiles as some big shi.*, same way they were calling MKIs as the most advance fighter in existence on this planet. Indians are only good for a few things - mainly opening their big mouths to lie, dance, crappy music, and idiotic movies.

Only Pakistanis would feel any sort of pride at shooting down a 60 year old jet with a 300,000$ BVR missile . Like honestly, the 2 missiles were more expensive than the jet itself. Wow what an impressive accomplishment. Almost as brave as the D Day landings or the Red Army's fight against Germany.

 

[Gorgin Khan]

Only Pakistanis would feel any sort of pride at shooting down a 60 year old jet with a 300,000$ BVR missile . Like honestly, the 2 missiles were more expensive than the jet itself. Wow what an impressive accomplishment. Almost as brave as the D Day landings or the Red Army's fight against Germany.

Those four missiles R 77 and R 73 which came down with you mig and what about Bishoon upgrade ? Was it all for free...

 

[Baba_Yaga]

Those four missiles R 77 and R 73 which came down with you mig and what about Bishoon upgrade ? Was it all for free...

Almost free. The cost of the airframe was probably less than $200,000. We have used these jets for like 50 years. They usually fall down on their own and no one has to help them do that with BVR missiles. What you guys did was overkill, it would have gone down on its own due to a technical glitch sooner rather than later, I would say probably within the next 2 years. Well you shot it down fine, you had to, it entered your territory but making it seem like a massive feat of bravery and excellence is just hilarious. What's next? Shooting down Mig 17 with F35?

 

[Gorgin Khan]

Almost free. The cost of the airframe was probably less than $200,000. We have used these jets for like 50 years. They usually fall down on their own and no one has to help them do that with BVR missiles. What you guys did was overkill, it would have gone down on its own due to a technical glitch sooner rather than later, I would say probably within the next 2 years.

The AMRAAM that Hit the bison was almost 10 years old flown more than 50 hours and its shelf life almost finished we were just about to dispose it . So it costed us nothing.. Btw how much Bison upgrade and those four missile cost ? You did not answer.

 

[Signalian]

What does this mean? @Signalian @airomerix @HRK

Design/Frame of JF-17 is not exactly stealthy, however some methods can be applied to reduce its RCS even further, such as RAM coating

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Almost free. The cost of the airframe was probably less than $200,000. We have used these jets for like 50 years. They usually fall down on their own and no one has to help them do that with BVR missiles. What you guys did was overkill, it would have gone down on its own due to a technical glitch sooner rather than later, I would say probably within the next 2 years. Well you shot it down fine, you had to, it entered your territory but making it seem like a massive feat of bravery and excellence is just hilarious. What's next? Shooting down Mig 17 with F35?

full of bullsh1t.

Mig-21 in IAF inventory are from 1980s production batch meaning their air frames are as old as PAF Mirage-III and Mirage-V, F-16 Block 15, and F-7s. They were upgraded to Bison standard in 2000s with Israeli and Russian advance systems that bring them very close to 4th generation fighter.

The AMRAAM that Hit the bison was almost 10 years old flown more than 50 hours and its shelf life almost finished we were just about to dispose it . So it costed us nothing.. Btw how much Bison upgrade and those four missile cost ? You did not answer.

close to $20 million.

 

[Umar Nazir]

surprise to see world reputed defence sites and tweeter YouTube comparing 100 million indian Rafale with 25 million JF-17. PAF with 6 times less budget than IAF have more AWACS and better BVR missiles as well as better trained pilots. since 1959 PAF shoot down 120 plus IAF jets against 70 .

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Only Pakistanis would feel any sort of pride at shooting down a 60 year old jet with a 300,000$ BVR missile . Like honestly, the 2 missiles were more expensive than the jet itself. Wow what an impressive accomplishment. Almost as brave as the D Day landings or the Red Army's fight against Germany.

300K for Amraam? let me guess you did a quick wikipeedia search?
The actual unit cost is close to a million dollars.

 

[Signalian]

Those four missiles R 77 and R 73 which came down with you mig and what about Bishoon upgrade ? Was it all for free...

The shooting down of an IAF pilot, him drinking tea that the world saw and also releasing him to not further escalate the situation is - Priceless.
The cost of tea in a PAF mess for IAF Pilot is cost of one IAF aircraft, which is - matchless.

 

[airomerix]

Almost free. The cost of the airframe was probably less than $200,000. We have used these jets for like 50 years. They usually fall down on their own and no one has to help them do that with BVR missiles. What you guys did was overkill, it would have gone down on its own due to a technical glitch sooner rather than later, I would say probably within the next 2 years.

Are you 15 years old?

And who quoted you this price for a Mig 21? It is not a Maruti 800 from your garage.

It is altogether a wrong debate you are trying to stir for face saving.

The real losses for India in exchange for Pakistans loss of 2 AMRAAM missiles.

1) Reputational loss of India as a conventional superpower. Unable to hit back.
2) Reputational loss of IAF as a potent force. Unable to achieve air superiority.
3) Reputational loss of Indian military for pilot capture.
4) Su-30MKI loss - $35M
5) Mig 21 Bis loss - $15M
6) Mi-17v5 loss - $12M
7) 6 Military men dead from chopper crash
8) 2 Su-30 pilots dead
9) Further loss of credibility of Indian media
10) Loss of confidence of Indian public in the armed forces


Further losses not yet disclosed (I wont care what anyone thinks)

11) Ammo depot completely damaged with millions of dollars of ammunition destroyed
12) Unknown number of troops injured/or killed in ground strike
13) Unknown number of armored vehicles damaged/rendered unuseable

Pakistan's loss.

1) Had to provide free medical for Wing commander
2) Had to provide free tea. He had 8 cups during his stay in Pakistan
3) Had to provide sooper biscuits (served along with tea)
4) Had to provide a total of 5 Meals.
5) Mig 21 Debris transport to a designated location.
6) 2 x AMRAAMs

It requires more than basic mathematics to stomach these losses. It requires a functioning brain with emotional intelligence on top of IQ.

This ladies and gentlemen is called a bargain.

 

[Signalian]

Mig-21 in IAF inventory are from 1980s production batch meaning their air frames are as old as PAF Mirage-III and Mirage-V, F-16 Block 15, and F-7s. They were upgraded to Bison standard in 2000s with Israeli and Russian advance systems that bring them very close to 4th generation fighter.

The Mig-21 Bison are probably upgraded versions of Mig21-bis? If yes then, yes these were the ones produced by HAL in 1980s.

 

[Tumba]

PL-15 effectiveness is watered down because the platform ... all modern missiles need proper guidance before in last leg around 20-30 kms they are able to use their own seekers.
PL-15 will add nothing more to PAF then Aim-120 C5 on F-16.

One this we have all seen from Feb 27 2019, if the opposing fighter is not with in NEZ the BVR shot will most likely be nulled.

Meteor on other hand provides to IAF a much better capability than R-77 which were purchased more than a decade ago.

Su-30 MKI now has longer range missiles R-77-1 and R-23. Of course these solid jets will lose energy/speed in last leg if fired from 50 kms away so less chance of kill same as Aim-120 C5 or PL-15 but meteor has an advantage over these missiles as Ramjet will give more speed during flight than solid jets which basically improve chances of strike close to 50kms.

But I do agree with the statement its for making point that Tejas is the one that needs more investment as quantity will come from thr only for whatever its worth JF-17 is over 100 now. Jf-17 Blk 3 is no bigger threat than F-16 Blk 52.

Also all Pakistanis posters should keep in mind even with 5:1 ratio in north F-16 wanted just 2 MKI out of contested area by firing Aim-120C5 from 80km+ distances these shots were not for kill it was to keep MKI away from area so targets can be locked in ground. But before guidance was given fully Mig-21s spoiled that chance.

MKI could have fired R-77 from D-Max ranges but they were coming for a kill not wasting the missiles.
Here Rafales would have countered the situation more easily due to its smaller RCS and mostly passive guidance it could have come around 60kms and fired Meteors.
Rafale’s radar is by design is smaller and relies on Passive guidance from enemy to close in for kill with Meteor.

Tejas could have been much better than Mig-21 for Abhinandan as it offers same advantages with smaller RCS and better ECM

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Several AMRAAMs were fired, 2 were recovered in India itself. Overall, cost of shooting it down higher than the jet itself. Dunno about the cost of R73 attached to the mig21. Cant find any info regarding the cost of this missile. Also no info is available regarding the cost of the bison upgrade. It was 600 million for 1As for the Bison upgrade, it happened like 25 years ago, the aircraft was still a worthless piece of junk

Only 1 AMRAAM was recovered from Su-30 wreckage and the other imaginary AMRAAM remains in IAF top brass rear end.
R-77 costs close to a $million
Bison is not a piece of junk, India just does not know how to utilize them to its full potential.

They were supposed to be retired in 2022. That should give you an idea about their cost. But hey, 20 million it is, whatever makes you feel better . Cost of a brand new Mig 29 is around $15 million

Mig-21 Bison is still superior to PAF Mirage and F-7 fleet. And PAF is the only Mirage-III operator in the world which were suppose to be phased out a decade ago.
Btw from where do you pull these costs? do us a favor, go to https://www.sipri.org/databases/armstransfers
and find the actual costs before you throw some bs numbers.

The Mig-21 Bison are probably upgraded versions of Mig21-bis? If yes then, yes these were the ones produced by HAL in 1980s.

Yes, IAF retired all Mig-21 produced in 1970s and upgrade all Mig-21 Bis to Bison standard.

 

[airomerix]

Sir what is the expected time when Project AZM will have its first flight? Is Project AZM modified J31 or a new design?

This is all classified information for now. Even I do not know. Neither they would tell anyone. Things will be clear by the end of the year hopefully.

So can u tell me what SU 30 lacked during the engagement with our F16s? Indians claim it was the lesser Range of R77 as compared to C5 which was the culprit

The range had barely to do with anything.

Su 30's couldn't hear anything neither they could see much. Indian pilots are not used to flying without instructions from radar controllers. Furthermore, radar locks from multiple PAF aircraft including thunders and vipers meant certain death for both of these Su-30's. One escaped and the lead was shot down as soon as he tried paint S/L Hassans F-16.

Furthermore, lack of support from retreating Mirage 2000's was also a cause. Mirage 2000's were jammed and locked by our very own - JF-17s. The authorizations didnt go through. Otherwise, there were 9 kills for that day - 5 Mig 21's, 2 Su's and 2 Mirage 2000's.

I've been a fairly old follower like since more than 10 years but joined only some time back. Must say it's a treat to read your & @Mangus Ortus Novem posts. Carry on mate! @airomerix

Thank you. Its an honor