Pakistan Could Be Eyeing Russian Yak-130 Trainers

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Very Nice design , close to larger commercial units understandable why such a plane would add to training new pilot's need

 

[princefaisal]

Best & cheapest solution will be to get the TOT of Chinese L-15 trainer and use same JF-17 avionics and weapons system for training.

 

[Not So Good]

dreams are free of cost

Bangladesh have it

 

[Pakistanisage]

The Chinese L15 is a very similar design ( because of Hongdu Collaboration with Yakovlev) and a strong contender as our choice of LIFT TRAINER.

If we can negotiate on Price and ToT with China, it might be the way to go.

For those who are thinking T-38 Talon, let us not forget that T-38 was developed as a Trainer in 1960's and even with upgrades it would be lacking the LIFT criteria.

 

[niaz]

The Chinese L15 is a very similar design ( because of Hongdu Collaboration with Yakovlev) and a strong contender as our choice of LIFT TRAINER.

If we can negotiate on price and ToT with China, it might be the way to go.

For those who are thinking T-38 Talon, let us not forget that T-38 was developed as a Trainer in 1960's and even with upgrades it would be lacking the LIFT criteria.

Honourable Sir,

Since a LIFT or advanced trainer is hardly likely to be used in combat against state of the art fighters; era when it was designed is not so important. Modern trainers are built with more efficient engines and with flying characteristics similar to the frontline fighters, hence substantially reducing cost of converting training a rookie pilot into a proficient fighter pilot.

The fact that T-38 has been in service in advanced trainer role with the USAF & the US Navy for more than 50 years where pilots eventually go on to fly F-15’s and F-18’s is proof that T-38 is an exceptionally good trainer. I would not dare to challenge views of a professional, but don’t you think if we could get T-38 really cheap (say $10-million each after complete re-built), these birds could satisfy PAF advanced trainer needs for the next 20 years? With more than one 1000 Talons having been built; we should be able to pick up second hand T-38’s for a song for the spare parts.

I am not advocating that we should definitely go for T-38 but IMHO for the cash starved PAF, it is a propositions worth serious consideration.

 

[mike2000 is back]

Any thread on PDF with "could", "should", " will" ought to be banned. @mods pls act.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Honourable Sir,

Since a LIFT or advanced trainer is hardly likely to be used in combat against state of the art fighters; era when it was designed is not so important. Modern trainers are built with more efficient engines and with flying characteristics similar to the front line fighters, hence substantially reducing cost of converting training a rookie pilot into a proficient fighter pilot.

The fact that T-38 has been in service in advanced trainer role with the USAF & the US Navy for more than 50 years where pilots eventually go on to fly F-15’s and F-18’s is proof that T-38 is an exceptionally good trainer. I would not dare to challenge views of a professional, but don’t you think if we could get T-38 really cheap (say $10-million each after complete re-built), these birds could satisfy PAF advanced trainer needs for the next 20 years? With more than one 1000 Talons having been built; we should be able to pick up second hand T-38’s for a song for the spare parts.

I am not advocating that we should definitely go for T-38 but IMHO for the cash starved PAF, it is a propositions worth serious consideration.

Since most of these T-38 Talon aircraft were built built some 50 years ago , their Air frame and Engines don't have much life left in them. We probably could use these for another 5 to 10 years Max. and we would have to buy extra to canabilize for parts. US Strategic Air Command stopped using T-38 in 1991. There are Air Forces still using this trainer but their utility is at the tail-end of their service life. Even updated ones still lack somewhat behind in their avionics and are a poor substitute compared with the latest bevy of LIFT trainers.

Let's keep in mind that the newer trainers like Yak-130 and L-15 are all available under 15 million USD. These are not only LIFT TRAINERS for 4.5 and 5 Generation Fighters, but they can also be used as light attack aircraft. The avionics on these newer LIFT aircraft are also better.

I still think Pakistan should work out a Financial Deal with either Russia or China to Co-Produce their next LIFT TRAINER with a complete ToT and Joint Production. As good as T-38 were in their heyday, the fact still remains that after 50 years of operation, they are at the tail-end of their useful life. On the other hand, our newer Lift Trainer would be good for next 25 to 30 years and if we can get the ToT/License to build, we could continue with upgrades.

Besides, if we get a ToT on a LIFT TRAINER and produce it domestically, we could truly become a power house for Trainers i.e. having a Basic Trainer (Mashak), an Intermediate Trainer (K-8) and an Advanced Trainer ( New LIFT TRAINER). This complete line of Fixed Wing Trainers would give us a lot of Leverage in Trainer Aircraft Market.

This is not to say that we are not getting 34 T-38's as stop gap measure while we work on our next line of LIFT TRAINER. That deal is expected to materialize by the end of the year and Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman is expected to go to Turkey by December to finalize that deal.

Those are some of the choices in front of the PAKISTAN AIR FORCE.

 

[IrbiS]

good for you, wait, and whilst your waiting build the size or your bank balance.to the pakistan airforce not you.

We will I.A

Air Force is not my area of expertise. @Pakistanisage is the right person to answer this question

At best, he's being sarcastic

Honourable Sir,

Since a LIFT or advanced trainer is hardly likely to be used in combat against state of the art fighters; era when it was designed is not so important. Modern trainers are built with more efficient engines and with flying characteristics similar to the frontline fighters, hence substantially reducing cost of converting training a rookie pilot into a proficient fighter pilot.

The fact that T-38 has been in service in advanced trainer role with the USAF & the US Navy for more than 50 years where pilots eventually go on to fly F-15’s and F-18’s is proof that T-38 is an exceptionally good trainer. I would not dare to challenge views of a professional, but don’t you think if we could get T-38 really cheap (say $10-million each after complete re-built), these birds could satisfy PAF advanced trainer needs for the next 20 years? With more than one 1000 Talons having been built; we should be able to pick up second hand T-38’s for a song for the spare parts.

I am not advocating that we should definitely go for T-38 but IMHO for the cash starved PAF, it is a propositions worth serious consideration.

Janab, the LIFT role in 21 century isn't the same as when T-38 was 1st used for this role decades ago. New MFDs and other minor upgrades don't make it a suitable LIFT contender for coming days. U.S is actively looking for replacement and Turkey too will compliment it with some other platform in coming years.
We, on the other hand are just starting with the concept and are much more limited in terms of numbers, funds. We need long term planning and solutions. Just compare T-38 or other legacy platforms with modern LIFTs like Mitten / Master / Golden Eagle : Modern platforms not only make conversion to front-line fighters a lot easier, but provide advanced training like all modern A/A, A/G weapons training/employment using virtual reality without using costly rounds or front-line fighters themselves, learning to operate radar and other avionics at a fraction of cost plus all the emergency procedure in a controlled and safe way. And for Airforce like PAF with not so big number of fighters, it's good to save precious hours on fighters using LIFT for training or COIN operations like Zarb-e-Azab.
Look beyond the year of 2018-2020 with only two fighters F-16 and JF-17 with no Mirages or F-7s, we definitetly need a cheaper solution for training but not compromising capability as the case wud be if we think legacy platforms will be enough. We are doing ok for now but should keep pace with future developments and stop-gap like T-38 isn't good option as of now IMHO.

 

[Blue Marlin]

We will I.A

good for you, and make sure you pay your taxes

 

[Pakistanisage]

Here is some more news on the T-38 deal in the Pakistani print media :


Turkey to gift Pakistan 34 jet trainers - thenews.com.pk


Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
Thursday, August 20, 2015

ISLAMABAD: In a gesture of goodwill, Turkey has decided to provide 34 jet trainers to Pakistan as a gift. The Northrop T-38 Talon is a two-seat, twin-engine supersonic jet trainer and it was the world’s first supersonic trainer and also the most produced.

The T-38 remains in service as of 2015 in air forces throughout the world. The decision was conveyed by Turkish Commander of Air Force General Abidin Unal to his counterpart in Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman when they met recently.

It is likely the planes would be handed over to Pakistan before the end of the year. Highly placed sources of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) told The News here other day that the supply of 34 planes will reduce financial burden on the PAF and the planes will cater to PAF needs at least for the next 10 years.

T-38M is a modernised Turkish Air Force T-38A with full glass cockpit and avionics, upgraded by Turkish Aerospace Industries under the project. The US Air Force is using T-38M extensively and about 50,000 pilots have got training on this type of plane. One plane costs US $5.879 million as it is a US made machine that is being used world over including Nasa.

The sources said that Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman would go to Turkey to receive the gift from the Turkish Air Force. The sources said that Pakistan would keep upgrading its JF-17 Thunder multirole fighter plane which is attracting buyers world over.

Pakistan has also initiated search for the most sophisticated multi-role fifth generation plane and for the purpose Sweden, American, Turkish and some European planes are being examined. India is acquiring planes of fifth generation although it has reduced its order from 126 to 36 and that deal too is facing snags. It is expected that Pakistan would also acquire fifth generation fighter-bomber planes for its air force, the sources added.

 

[IrbiS]

good for you, and make sure you pay your taxes

Very Nice design , close to larger commercial units understandable why such a plane would add to training new pilot's need

It's Master

 

[Super Falcon]

Chinese trainer was also good forget its name better invest in SU 35

why PAF take main decision late im amazed still our pilots dont have jet trainers amazing PAF think tank im always right of your mindset reactive