Featured Pakistan considers Italy as an important defense partner

[PAR 5]

AW139 Helicopters for VVIP flights and in use with PM via 6th Aviation Squadron, COAS squadron and PAF

FALCO UAV Program With PAF

Used Italian APCs and SPH for Pakistan Army

Thermal Imaging Sights on Al Zarrar Tanks at HIT

Envrironmental Test Equipment for JF17 at PAC

GRIFFO Radar Program for PAF aircrafts at PAC

SPADA AD for PAF

Not wonder PAKISTAN has a lot to say thank you to Italians

 

[denel]

Italy has been a good and reliable defence partner.

Same for us. They were absolutely vital for us as well - they had licenced the MB-326 which then became basis for a long production and super impala as well.

 

[denel]

Italians have some great tech ahem Leonardo ahem... they are also not shy in sharing it if the money is right.
I worked on FREM's for them and they were nice boats, Italians are very underrated when it comes to defence equipment.

I will always have a soft spot for Italy, it is just like a developed version of Pakistan, from their cultural values to their personal behaviours - they are very similar.

They always had good aircraft designs which were simple to maintain and build locally; while we recognise K-8 is there but again, if you cannot champion next level of thought locally then it is a shame indeed. If we go back in time, Italy helped Brazil setup their aerospace giants with smaller steps; Brazilians took it to next level. Same with us, they greatly helped us with getting a firm footing with smaller aircraft before we took on larger challenges ourselves.

 

[ghazi52]

Thank you, Italy.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

They always had good aircraft designs which were simple to maintain and build locally; while we recognise K-8 is there but again, if you cannot champion next level of thought locally then it is a shame indeed. If we go back in time, Italy helped Brazil setup their aerospace giants with smaller steps; Brazilians took it to next level. Same with us, they greatly helped us with getting a firm footing with smaller aircraft before we took on larger challenges ourselves.

It's a real shame Italy and Brazil didn't keep the AMX alive longer.

It just came a little too early. If it entered production in 2002, then they would've ate into the COIN/CT market at the time. I'm sure Pakistan would've been a customer of several AMX squadrons too (replacing the A-5).

 

[denel]

It's a real shame Italy and Brazil didn't keep the AMX alive longer.

It just came a little too early. If it entered production in 2002, then they would've ate into the COIN/CT market at the time. I'm sure Pakistan would've been a customer of several AMX squadrons too (replacing the A-5).

Correct AMX was a perfect aircraft.

 

[Signalian]

AW139 Helicopters for VVIP flights and in use with PM via 6th Aviation Squadron, COAS squadron and PAF

FALCO UAV Program With PAF

Used Italian APCs and SPH for Pakistan Army

Thermal Imaging Sights on Al Zarrar Tanks at HIT

Envrironmental Test Equipment for JF17 at PAC

GRIFFO Radar Program for PAF aircrafts at PAC

SPADA AD for PAF

Not wonder PAKISTAN has a lot to say thank you to Italians

Mod 56 Oto Melara 105 mm Artillery guns.
IVECO trucks, some with Isoli M60 crane.

 

[FuturePAF]

There are limits to what Italy can provide because a lot of its programs are a result of consortium partnerships with the UK, France, Germany, etc.

In some cases, it's doable, but in others, not so much. The FREMM, Typhoon, Aster-30, etc, all fall into the latter -- so they're basically no-goes for us. The French, UK, etc can block sales.

However, the stuff Italy 'owns' -- e.g., CAMM-ER, Falco-series, are doable. Ditto for the specific items the UK and Germany have approved for sale to Pakistan, e.g., Leonardo's AESA radars or various communications, EW/ELINT, etc, gear.

CAMM-ER would be a great option to consider if we upgrade the F-22P frigates. The JF-17 could also benefit from the Pirate IRST or at least the Skyward IRST, couple either with the Type 158 LRDI Airborne Laser rangefinder.

A version of the Eurofighter’s Praetorian electronic countermeasures system would also be a huge plus if Pakistan can work with them on unique frequencies and waveforms known only to Pakistan; especially consider the PAF’s new EW initiative. A towed decoy and expendable RF decoys would also be a big help.

The Italians may also have advanced datalink technology which the PAF could benefit from.

Considering the Italians joined the British and the Swedes on the Tempest program, they maybe able to spin off subsystems which could be of great help for PAF as it works on Project AZM. Which would be completely ITAR Free.

Consider the state of US-Turkish relations and both PAFs limited funds as well as potential us reluctance to sell the Block 72 F-16s to Pakistan, Should the PAF consider buying used F-16s from the US through CSF (or other air forces) and putting them through an upgrade to near Eurofighter level capabilities as well as a structural overhaul. Italian AESA radars and avionics could open up the ability to fire the Meteor missile and other European weapons. I know it’s a long shot, but it would open up new options on the F-16 for the PAF, allowing a mix of American and even more Europeans weapons and sensors.

should this prove successful, the PAF could do the same with its current F-16s; an Italian AESA Radar upgrade And European EW equipment as it evolves for project tempest

 

[Yasser76]

My wife is Italian (From Alps in Lombardy!). Pakistanis have very good reputation in Italy due to the fact many work hard and also set up businesses in Italy.

Must be remembered when UK/US/Germans were sanctioning us Italians came through with Grifo radars for F-7s and Mirages back in the 90s. These were on par with APG-66 back then. Also provided APCs and Staff College slots to the Army.

These days we prefer Turkey and China for naval systems naturally, and Italy is strong in this area, and in terms of land warfare equipment much of their products are built in conjunction with others as someone already pointed out, but where Italy can really help Pakistan is via EW, Radars and even M-346 which is truely world class.

Italians have thrown their lot in with US with regards to F-35 for future needs but they have signed on for UK Tempest fighter project. If Pak can play it's diplomatic cards right and get UK and Italy on side, there is no reason we can not benefit from the spin offs from this project to help Project Azm.

One must remember that Italian people and government are very weary of a Europe dominated by the Germans and French, there will always be a reluctance to get into bed fully with them, hence much political and defence cooperation with UK and Turkey instead. Pakistan has good relationships with UK, Turkey and Italy and needs to leverage these.

 

[Invicta]

They always had good aircraft designs which were simple to maintain and build locally; while we recognise K-8 is there but again, if you cannot champion next level of thought locally then it is a shame indeed. If we go back in time, Italy helped Brazil setup their aerospace giants with smaller steps; Brazilians took it to next level. Same with us, they greatly helped us with getting a firm footing with smaller aircraft before we took on larger challenges ourselves.

I always thought about it but you said it perfectly well including other posters about AMX. AMX was too soon but Italians do have a knack of producing some fine machinery (with some quirks - but fine nonetheless).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I always thought about it but you said it perfectly well including other posters about AMX. AMX was too soon but Italians do have a knack of producing some fine machinery (with some quirks - but fine nonetheless).

I'm surprised they didn't try an AMX Mk2.

I guess reviving the supply chain would've cost too much, and there wasn't a single large order (e.g., from USAF) to generate a lot of interest. Moreover, they're also marketing the M346FA for light fighter needs, could serve as a CAS platform?

 

[denel]

I'm surprised they didn't try an AMX Mk2.

I guess reviving the supply chain would've cost too much, and there wasn't a single large order (e.g., from USAF) to generate a lot of interest. Moreover, they're also marketing the M346FA for light fighter needs, could serve as a CAS platform?

Correct; from our side, we were deeply interested in joining Brazil but this was height of sanctions and Brazil clearly stated they did not want to fall foul of UN sanctions; AMX was a great platform and lot of potentials. But winds of change were blowing across south america too and next gen work was put on hold.

 

[Invicta]

I'm surprised they didn't try an AMX Mk2.

I guess reviving the supply chain would've cost too much, and there wasn't a single large order (e.g., from USAF) to generate a lot of interest. Moreover, they're also marketing the M346FA for light fighter needs, could serve as a CAS platform?

True, I have followed the M346FA with some interest however that peaked when I saw the AT6-Wolverine and the Beechcraft Tucano 314. I think for what it's worth and the payload capacity when figuratively speaking turboprops are better and will remain so. For a light fighter that is the way forward, I know PAC have changed the displays on the K8 they need to weaponise the platform much like the Tucano and the AT6 and use that for Khyber and Balochistan area for CAS. Would prefer a turboprop but the MFI-17 aerowise is not suitable for this role.

Something for PAF to definitely explore, after the knowledge gained with JF17 it should be cost effective to implement such a change on a turboprop or trainer aircraft.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

True, I have followed the M346FA with some interest however that peaked when I saw the AT6-Wolverine and the Beechcraft Tucano 314. I think for what it's worth and the payload capacity when figuratively speaking turboprops are better and will remain so. For a light fighter that is the way forward, I know PAC have changed the displays on the K8 they need to weaponise the platform much like the Tucano and the AT6 and use that for Khyber and Balochistan area for CAS. Would prefer a turboprop but the MFI-17 aerowise is not suitable for this role.

Something for PAF to definitely explore, after the knowledge gained with JF17 it should be cost effective to implement such a change on a turboprop or trainer aircraft.

The M346 is one of the aircraft the PAF is/was checking out for its LIFT requirement (vs. L-15 and T-50). However, from what I have read (based on past contracts), KAI is selling the T-50 at a lower cost than the M346. I wonder why? Either KAI is drawing on more economies-of-scale (since the ROKAF is acquiring a lot of T-50 and F/A-50), or is it subsidizing the cost?

 

[Invicta]

The M346 is one of the aircraft the PAF is/was checking out for its LIFT requirement (vs. L-15 and T-50). However, from what I have read (based on past contracts), KAI is selling the T-50 at a lower cost than the M346. I wonder why? Either KAI is drawing on more economies-of-scale (since the ROKAF is acquiring a lot of T-50 and F/A-50), or is it subsidizing the cost?

I would say economies of scale, but you cannot rule out state subsidy as well. In my first job I was working with SHI on some of their driling platforms most of the work was subsidised by Korean government so they could win the work and keep shipyard busy.

That being said Koreans have come a long way from where they started off and their Tech is well matured as well. If economy was in a better state I would say that PAF would be spoilt for choice. If they can provide funds at this stage, either aircraft will transform the current training regime employed at PAF.

I also think that either aircraft, if procured in numbers; can come with good deep level ToT to build on already available skills from making JF-17. The Italian will be far easier in this venture than the Koreans, Koreans tend to be more open in keeping manufacturing in house.